RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=-

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=-

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=-

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:04:20 PM

Posts: 89
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline

quote:

that's like saying a submissive is a fake but a slave is true.

Oh, don't misunderstand me, I don't hold that viewpoint - I feel people have their own ways of doing their relationships and if that works for them, it is "real" enough. However, I think that TPE is just a newer form of an old ideal, the true(tm) Master and slave (or Mistress and slave), the ones that work perfectly because the slave never questions an order because they're a "real" slave and the one in charge never makes a mistake because a "real" mistress knows everything about their slave to avoid making a mistake. My viewpoint is that it is not a new ideal, and that it is furthermore not entirely realistic, because every problem with it can be brushed off as that they were really TPE it would never have problems. I don't think actual human beings can have a long-term relationship, agreement, whatever without some eventual problems.

_____________________________

"I was her Voyager, she was my Deep Space Nine" - Ookla the Mok.

"I still have my name
I still have my face
I have not run away from home
Doesn't seem so long
If I now embrace
Every single thing I've never known" - Cruxshadows

(in reply to Squeakers)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:08:08 PM

Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline

TPE has been around quite awhile.

(in reply to CrescentLuna)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:14:54 PM

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Power is authority. What you describe is very similar to my understanding of TPE. You said, “I transfer it all to him”. In that case, it sounds like TPE to me.

First... Authority is only one form of Power and not the only form of Power

Second... Exchanging Power is not the same as Transfering Authority.

I agree that authority is one form of power. If authority is power and you transfer that power... how is that not power exchange?

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:18:38 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
I agree that authority is one form of power. If authority is power and you transfer that power... how is that not power exchange?

simple.. when you exchange.. one give something in return for somethiing that is given to them

In a Transfer.. it is one way... She give me Authority... I give her nothing to recieve that authority. She gives because of Who I am and not because I give her something for it.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/11/2007 3:19:46 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:28:06 PM

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

/sigh

I am going to regret this; I know I will… but what the hell…

I am going to start though with your ridiculous disclaimer that M/s and D/s relationships are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I have seen relationships that identify as D/s that would fit more in with MY definition of slavery; and I have seen M/s relationships that have no comparison to slavery… the difference between the two is only what each individual defines between the two. There is no universal definition for M/s; D/s relationships; nor is there one for submissives or slaves. Trying to force your own definitions on others does not change this fact.

You say that there are no limits in TPE. I say bull shit. Everyone has limits. EVERYONE. Most will be quick to tell you that they take on the limits that their Master/Owner/Dominant imposes upon them. To do this, the Master/Owner/Dominant must already have self-imposed limits. In other words; he/she has limits; he/she places limits on the property. So, your own claim that there are no limits in TPE is negated.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:49:59 PM

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
I agree that authority is one form of power. If authority is power and you transfer that power... how is that not power exchange?

simple.. when you exchange.. one give something in return for somethiing that is given to them

In a Transfer.. it is one way... She give me Authority... I give her nothing to recieve that authority. She gives because of Who I am and not because I give her something for it.

It seems we are talking about the same thing only with different words. I am sincerely trying to understand your point about the difference between the two.
I look at it as an exchange because you did not always have authority over her. It was her choice to give you that authority. You chose to accept that authority. She gave you power, and you accepted it… hence we have an exchange.

The power transfer may be one-way but you both had to accept the exchange. That is what TPE means, it refers to complete authority/power of one over an other.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 3:53:24 PM

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

It seems we are talking about the same thing only with different words. I am sincerely trying to understand your point about the difference between the two.
I look at it as an exchange because you did not always have authority over her. It was her choice to give you that authority. You chose to accept that authority. She gave you power, and you accepted it… hence we have an exchange.

The power transfer may be one-way but you both had to accept the exchange. That is what TPE means, it refers to complete authority/power of one over an other.

It's not an exchange if you take the word exchange at it's most literal.

Exchange means just that... you give something and get something in return.

She gives to him authority over her... he gives nothing in return; he only accepts what is being given to him.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:07:47 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

fr

i think that's a very reasonable post. compatibility with your partner is good thing.

celeste

I agree.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:08:07 PM

Posts: 345
Joined: 7/11/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

It seems we are talking about the same thing only with different words. I am sincerely trying to understand your point about the difference between the two.
I look at it as an exchange because you did not always have authority over her. It was her choice to give you that authority. You chose to accept that authority. She gave you power, and you accepted it… hence we have an exchange.

The power transfer may be one-way but you both had to accept the exchange. That is what TPE means, it refers to complete authority/power of one over an other.

It's not an exchange if you take the word exchange at it's most literal.

Exchange means just that... you give something and get something in return.

She gives to him authority over her... he gives nothing in return; he only accepts what is being given to him.

"he gives nothing in return; he only accepts what is being given to him."??? Interesting. So, you are telling us she gets NOTHING from her Master. He doesn't provide her with guidance, caring, comittment, or even love? She gives him everything she is... body, mind and soul, and he just sits there and takes it all without providing her a single thing in return? Wow...

Doesn't he provide her the opportunity to devote herself to him and dedicate herself to serving him and any and all of his needs? If that isn't the driving factor either, please explain?

This is not meant to be sarcastic. I am seriously wanting to try to understand this particular mindset.

< Message edited by MystressDream -- 11/11/2007 4:11:27 PM >

_____________________________

Knowledge and experience are wonderful things to share. When we stop asking questions, we might as well "hang it up".

check out: www.enclaveproductions.com
www.enclavewest.com

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:11:21 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

It seems we are talking about the same thing only with different words. I am sincerely trying to understand your point about the difference between the two.

No we we not talking about the same thing

quote:

I look at it as an exchange because you did not always have authority over her. It was her choice to give you that authority. You chose to accept that authority. She gave you power, and you accepted it… hence we have an exchange.

Accepting what is given does not equate to an exchange.... For it to be an exchange I would have to have given her something in return. Which did not occur.

quote:

The power transfer may be one-way but you both had to accept the exchange. That is what TPE means, it refers to complete authority/power of one over an other.

Yes.. Transfer is One-Way... an Exchange is Two-way. A one way transfer doesn't not equate to TPE,,

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:21:58 PM

Posts: 581
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

It seems we are talking about the same thing only with different words. I am sincerely trying to understand your point about the difference between the two.

No we we not talking about the same thing

quote:

I look at it as an exchange because you did not always have authority over her. It was her choice to give you that authority. You chose to accept that authority. She gave you power, and you accepted it… hence we have an exchange.

Accepting what is given does not equate to an exchange.... For it to be an exchange I would have to have given her something in return. Which did not occur.

quote:

The power transfer may be one-way but you both had to accept the exchange. That is what TPE means, it refers to complete authority/power of one over an other.

Yes.. Transfer is One-Way... an Exchange is Two-way. A one way transfer doesn't not equate to TPE,,

KOM
[Accepting what is given does not equate to an exchange.... For it to be an exchange I would have to have given her something in return. Which did not occur. ]

I'm thinking that if you ask your wonderfully devoted women what they have received from you and from their relationship with you>> they would and could create quite a list. I have read many of them mentioned in their posts.

smiles..

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:25:41 PM

Posts: 581
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating
so...If I am understanding the OPs terms of a TPE relationship...it can only be between a Master and slave...
and not in a Master/sub relationship???

(many, I'm sure)submissives give up their control/will/lives to the authority of a Master/Mistress just as slaves do........imo.

Dear Cyndi,
My understanding of the terms used in BDSM relationships are:

A submissive takes the subordinate position in a D/s relationship. They do not surrender all control. The degree of control is negotiated by mutual agreement.

A slave, contrary to common belief, does not have to be a submissive. However, they have to surrender control in a TPE.

That leaves us with your proposition, that a sub surrendered all control. Are you saying sub is in a TPE, yet they do not think they are a slave?

yes, that is what I am saying..
( and thank you for your response.)

_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:39:08 PM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

the key, (of course.) is finding someone with the same limits as you do, as well as the same interests.

Exactly.

It's *not* that a slave in a "TPE" or whatever you want to call it has no limits. Because, seriously - *everyone* has limits. And I'm not talking operational limits like the OP's mention of a car (I can't stand comparing human property to inanimate property) - a human being has things that they WILL NOT do. Period.

However, paired with the *right* partner, whose ideas and ideals match theirs, those limits can be rendered moot - because they will not be approached.

(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:41:12 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

"he gives nothing in return; he only accepts what is being given to him."??? Interesting. So, you are telling us she gets NOTHING from her Master. He doesn't provide her with guidance, caring, comittment, or even love? She gives him everything she is... body, mind and soul, and he just sits there and takes it all without providing her a single thing in return? Wow...

Doesn't he provide her the opportunity to devote herself to him and dedicate herself to serving him and any and all of his needs? If that isn't the driving factor either, please explain?

This is not meant to be sarcastic. I am seriously wanting to try to understand this particular mindset.

In any relationship their is Transfer, Exchange and Sharing

she gives Commitment and I give Commitment... an exchange
she give Devotion and I give Devotion... an exchange
she gives llove and I give Love... an exchange....

Most intimate relationships that are successful will do all these things and more This exchange is a fundamental reason why we enter into a relationship with another. This has nothing to do with the power transfer. How the the Authority of the relationship functions is another issue all together.

She gives Authority becuase of the character I am as a person and also in part because of who she is. She gives it to me.. because bottom line... she doesn't want it and I do.. neither Kyra or Alandra want the authority. They demonstrate the giving authority by being obedient. I provide opportunities for them to give this authority.

I don't believe this this is a one time event. Consent to me is continuous. Each and every choice they make to obey is transfering authority. They choose not to consent.. authority ends immediately and so does the M/s dynamic.

Most people tend to meld all this into one. Well frankly.. other relationship styles.. Exchange Trust, Commitments, Love etc etc etc And they even do it completely and totally.

However.. Authority within a given relationship can follow several structures.

1 - One-sided... One person makes all the decisions

2 - Joint.. both sides must agree on the choice .. each have a veto

3 - Sharing... decisions are divided into groups.. partner A does this group.. partner B does this group.

4 - Joint/Sharing - this is hybrid of the two. in that in some areas it will be a joint decision and in others Partner A or B will make the decision.

To me the reasons of what structure is used is based on who actually wants the authority in the first place. Totally or in part. Some say they give it X.. because of Trust. Frankly... you in the relationship because you trust the person... but you give authority becuase you don't want it.. or you receive/take authority because you want it. It's an intrinsic motivation that we all have to some degree or another. In the right relationship.. this internal motivation is set free.

The Key into the lock.. is the commitment, devotion etc. But why do we go through that door when it is unlocked? We go through because we want the authority or we don't.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MystressDream)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:47:01 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating

KOM
[Accepting what is given does not equate to an exchange.... For it to be an exchange I would have to have given her something in return. Which did not occur. ]

I'm thinking that if you ask your wonderfully devoted women what they have received from you and from their relationship with you>> they would and could create quite a list. I have read many of them mentioned in their posts.

What they recieve from me is no less than what I recieve from them. and that is why we are in the relationship together in the first place.

But.. We have this power of Authority.. guess what.. they don't want it.. I do. They give it .. I receive it.

However.. no amount of Exchange of Love, Devotion or whatever will cause a person to Give the Power of Authority to another unless they want to get rid of it in the first place. If Kyra and Alandra didn't want to give Authority... guess what.. we would still have as powerful and as incredible a relationship as we do now... but the Authority structure would be different.

editted to add

just some additional thoughts...

So often we see relationships come and go. They jump into this lovely lifestyle and race after the holy grail. Negotiate the Authority .. how is the Authority is going to be structured. I am going to be Slave.. or Sub.. I am Master or Dominant. They are so focused on how the authority is structured in the relationship.. they forgot to create the relationship in the first place.

The Relationship comes First! Build it... Know the person you are with. Understand ones needs and wants. Look to the character of the person. Build this relatioship... and the authority structure will be so much easier.

I believe that most of peoples relationship issues that stem from authority conflicts is they have failed to build that foundation of the relationship.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/11/2007 4:53:39 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Cyntilating)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:50:05 PM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

#1 – I am not a “good dom”. I am a good Master. There is a difference.

Semantics.

quote:

Your reply is apples vs oranges and not well received. However, I do have experience with D/s and can answer your questions about D/s. If you would like to start a thread and post me, I will be glad to reply and discuss the relationship dynamics of D/s. I would thank you not further polute this thread.

"Pollute this thread?" Way to win friends and influence people.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:51:29 PM

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
…et al.

Dear IrishMist,
LOL... I can understand your sigh. Thank you for your detailed reply.

Quote - “I am going to start though with your ridiculous disclaimer that M/s and D/s relationships are at opposite ends of the spectrum.”
Reply - To me M/s and D/s are not at opposite ends but, they are well defined and different enough that finding complete fulfillment in crossing over is rare. i. e. A “perfect sub” might be miserable and unfulfilled if forced to live as a “slave” and vice versa.

Quote - “I have seen relationships that identify as D/s that would fit more in with MY definition of slavery; and I have seen M/s relationships that have no comparison to slavery… the difference between the two is only what each individual defines between the two.”
Reply - I agree, I have seen the same. However, clinically, a horse is still a horse no matter what he chooses to call himself. The same is true with BDSM relationship roles and the 100+ paraphilias under the BDSM umbrella. On the other hand I have seen perfectly functional mis-categorized relationships because all involved shared common misinterpretations of the terms.

Quote - “There is no universal definition for M/s; D/s relationships; nor is there one for submissives or slaves. Trying to force your own definitions on others does not change this fact.”
Reply - I disagree and rely on the dictionary, the encyclopedia and the DSM for my understanding of terms. If we all though the word “female” had a different meaning, we would not be able to communicate.

Quote - “You say that there are no limits in TPE. I say bull shit. Everyone has limits. EVERYONE. Most will be quick to tell you that they take on the limits that their Master/Owner/Dominant imposes upon them. To do this, the Master/Owner/Dominant must already have self-imposed limits. In other words; he/she has limits; he/she places limits on the property. So, your own claim that there are no limits in TPE is negated.”
Reply – Having personal limits and imposing them on the rules of a relationship are … well limiting. I thought the opening line of the OP expressly acknowledged that there are limits, self imposed or not. Using gravity and a slave’s ability to fly is a pretty good example of limits. The point was about the reality of TPE and negotiated limits being a sign that something is amiss.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 4:58:07 PM

Posts: 9
Joined: 9/3/2007
From: Vancouver, BC (on the Wet Coast)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Following the term literally, the slave is giving all their power to the master and the master is giving their power to the slave. Not sure how that sets one person up as having authority within the relationship.

Authority transfer works better and makes more sense to me. He has all the authority within the relationship. I transfer it all to him. He does not exchange any authority with me.

Power is authority. What you describe is very similar to my understanding of TPE. You said, “I transfer it all to him”. In that case, it sounds like TPE to me.

How does it sounds like TPE? Somehow transferring means the same thing as exchanging?

Transferring means moving something to someone. It does NOT imply you are exchanging or getting something in return. In the case of "total power exchange" it means BOTH sides are giving up something to get something in return. ( If Kyra wants to transfer authority in her relationship, that would be her right and desire as a submissive or slave. Presumably she gets something for herself in return. It's the very nature of humans to want to receive something that helps them in some way - tangible or intangible.) But it does NOT show TPE necessarily.

I think celeste illustrated this VERY with the car manual analogy. (I think RS seems to have a problem understanding that exchange doesn't equal "total control" though and didn't seem to catch on to the reason this analogy is very appropriate.) A slave and a sub BOTH give up what they wish to give up. They do so because THEY choose to do so, not because it is ordered. In fact, the dom/master needs to prove to that slave/sub that they will in fact GIVE that power away. The job of a dom/master (let's not get squicked out about terminology when dealing with concepts - they are BOTH dominants!) is to ensure the sub/slave is taken care of and is even *gasp* HAPPY in the relationship. If this happiness is not there, the dominant will be eventually alone.

In answer to the OP's original post, no, there is no such thing as slavery. You can role play all you want, but if you harm another person in our country, there are laws to protect us. If you chose to beat someone when we decided to use a safe word, you would not only find the possibility of the sub/slave leaving the relationship, but you could be up on criminal charges.

How in the world could a real life situation be "totally" real, if this possibility is always there? I put it to you, that it's only "real" as long as BOTH parties decide this is the way you will play it out in real life. The "real life" 24/7 situation to me is "fantasy" since it only works if all the rules within that relationship are followed, and no one steps out of them and makes the other one happy. Sounds rather tenuous to me...

~ cheeky
p.s. RS, what "power" did you give up when you entered your power exchange? I'm curious. Am I wrong in assuming that you didn't exchange anything, but that you only received your power from the sub or slave?

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 5:03:10 PM

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
It seems we are talking about the same thing only with different words. I am sincerely trying to understand your point about the difference between the two.

No we we not talking about the same thing

quote:

I look at it as an exchange because you did not always have authority over her. It was her choice to give you that authority. You chose to accept that authority. She gave you power, and you accepted it… hence we have an exchange.

Accepting what is given does not equate to an exchange.... For it to be an exchange I would have to have given her something in return. Which did not occur.

quote:

The power transfer may be one-way but you both had to accept the exchange. That is what TPE means, it refers to complete authority/power of one over an other.

Yes.. Transfer is One-Way... an Exchange is Two-way. A one way transfer doesn't not equate to TPE,,

Thank you for your many replies. To me, taking authority is a lot of work and I “give” a lot in when in the seat of authority. I “give” my slave a lot of time and attention by accepting her submission. To me that is an exchange. I will concede that I just don’t see your point somehow and I thank you for taking so much of your time to explain it to me.
/respect

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- - 11/11/2007 5:15:06 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Thank you for your many replies. To me, taking authority is a lot of work and I “give” a lot in when in the seat of authority. I “give” my slave a lot of time and attention by accepting her submission. To me that is an exchange. I will concede that I just don’t see your point somehow and I thank you for taking so much of your time to explain it to me.
/respect

what you give by accepting her submission.. I give because I love them regardless of the submission they also give me.

Because you give it due to the submisson recieved... I agree it is an exchange.. more specifically a Power Exchange.

But.. I don't give those things to receive their submission or that Power of authority. I give it because I Love them.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=-

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

6.172