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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:36:35 AM   
pinkme2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If this is the case we have been killing political processes since the dawn of time.

Cyrus


Well, yeah, "Cyrus", "we" have been killing the political process since the dawn of time.

The British/American system of democracy, however, is based on a principle that a civil society can have segments that disagree about issue, but still get along without erupting into killing to solve those political conflict.

I think the Opinion piece and my comments are about the utter abrogation of that possibility (a "civil" dispute, even if heated, which recognizes the other sides essential humanity) by the "progressive" intellectual elite, the supposed torch bears for the "civil" approach to politics.

Firm


It's hypocrisy, plain and simple on their part.  They are all for PEACE, until they want to engage in violent behavior... they are all for FREEDOM OF SPEECH until it practiced by those that they disagree with.... They are all for TOLERANCE, until there's something they can't tolerate.

Facts are that they will hate each Republican president.. each will be called more "stupid" than the last by the people who call themselves "progressive."

Psssst... it wasn't just about sex.  DUH.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:38:02 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: boytoy4female

How soon we forget history. Meatcleaver appears to be arguing that the US should not come to the defense of it's allies, unless we are attacked. So, there would have been no cold war, Vietnam, WW1 or WW2.

Sadam's constant refusal to follow the UN's mandates, left the door open for us to again enter Iraq. Hell yes we went in. Who wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity to go into the mideast and take on Islamic extremist on their soil, not ours. Maybe Iraq did not attack us directly, but they were known supporters fo the militants that did attack us. How else to you counter strike militants who have no common citezenship? We havent been fighting Iraqis for quite some time. We have been fighting the Islamic militants, by drawing them into Iraq.

Though I am not a big supporter of GW, he promised to strike back after 911 and kept his word. The Bush haters, in my view, are equivalent of the French.


You`re work from talking points, that are 5 years old.

Iraq had nothing to do w/ 9/11,so we didn`t strike back,as you mentioned.Rather,we lost close to 4000 GIs and boat loads of money,and for nothing.

They went in for oil,and used(abused) our GIs to do it.
And they`re losing the battle in Afganistan, while bin-laden sits,eating dates and having children.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2461214.ece


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2170237,00.html


Here,read these while you munch on your freedom fries.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/03/21/iraq.weapons/


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E2DD1F39F937A15752C0A9629C8B63


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3718150.stm


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6190720/

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 12:10:51 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


Libertarians want to eliminate all welfare and Gov programs, not specifically called for in the Constitution. Not a penny for education or health care. Bil Mahr does not suport that, and he is not a "Libertarian".



Maybe he's a centrist libertarian, then. I think one can have libertarian values and also be a pragmatist (as opposed to an ideologue.)

What this makes a person in the end, I'm not sure. No one fits the absolute, pigeon-holed definition of any political category.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 12:18:51 PM   
domiguy


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http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/11/14/wall_st_journal/?calendar=200710

Wednesday November 14, 2007 09:12 ESTWSJ Op-Ed page decries hatred of the president
(Updated below - Update II - Update III - Update IV - Update V)
Extreme hypocrisy is far too common to take note of every time one sees it, but sometimes it is so jaw-dropping that it can't be ignored. A remarkably petulant column on today's Wall St. Journal Op-Ed page is a prime example.
Its author is Bush supporter Peter Berkowitz, a law professor at George Mason University (he's also a Senior Giuliani advisor -- see update below). Berkowitz's complaint is that "Bush hatred" is so very pervasive yet is so very unjustified, and he frets about "the damage hatred inflicts on the intellect." While he acknowledges that some past Presidents were also hated, he claims "Bush hatred is different," as it's "distinguished by the pride intellectuals have taken in their hatred, openly endorsing it as a virtue." The only specific aspect of Berkowitz's argument worth noting is how typically self-absorbed it is.
As is so often the case for whining right-wing polemicists with pretenses of high-minded grievances, the whole column is actually about him and his bruised little ego. His entire "argument" is nothing more than the by-product of what he perceives to be the oh-so-unfair treatment to which he was personally subjected during two petty social events -- once at a 2004 dinner of "several distinguished progressive scholars, journalists, and policy analysts" where everyone was mean to him because he defended Bush, and a second time at a Princeton panel earlier this year when fellow panelists criticized him for defending Bush. He harbors such a grudge over how mean people were to him on those two occasions that he has converted his anger into some sort of national crisis whereby Bush critics must learn "to discipline their passions and make them an ally of their reason."
But the far more significant aspect of this whole spectacle is that the WSJ Editors -- of all people -- have the audacity to publish a lecture on the grave harms of hatred towards the President. This is the Editorial Page that, throughout the 1990s, did more to infect and degrade our public discourse than anyone this side of Rush Limbaugh and Matt Drudge. But the WSJ Editors were actually far worse than Limbaugh and Drudge, because they put a stamp of establishment journalistic credibility on those rancid dirt-mongers, elevating them to the realm of the credible and influential.
Entire books could be written on the defamatory filth disseminated by the WSJ Editors throughout the 1990s. One excellent book that covered that topic in some depth is The Hunting of the President, by Joe Conason and Gene Lyons. But in light of Berkowitz's self-involved civility sermon this morning, it is worth reminding ourselves of just some of the profound hate-mongering and truly deranged accusations that regularly spewed from those same pages during the Clinton presidency.
First, in November of 2003, Ken Auletta in The New Yorker described the repugnant reaction to Vince Foster's death from WSJ Editorial Page Editor Robert Bartley, whom Foster partially blamed in his suicide note [via LEXIS (WSJ Editorials not available online)]:
In the Clinton era, the tone of Bartley's page became more shrill. A federal judge was characterized as "Osama's Favorite Judge," and Tom Daschle, then the Democratic Majority Leader, was "the Senate's most accomplished holdup man." Bartley treated Whitewater as if it were Watergate, devoting to it what turned out to be more than three thousand pages of editorial and op-ed columns, which were later anthologized in six volumes.

The page attacked deputy White House counsel Vincent Foster, who killed himself not long after an editorial appeared with the headline "Who is Vincent Foster?" He left a note blaming Washington for making "sport" out of politics and singling out the Journal: "The WSJ editors lie without consequence."
After the suicide, a Bartley editorial called for a special counsel to investigate Foster's death as a possible murder, and the last sentence read, "If he was driven to take his life by purely personal despair, a serious investigation should share this conclusion so that he can be appropriately mourned."

In Salon in 2002, Eric Boehlert focused on the specific dirt-peddling of one particular WSJ editor:
The piece [linking Saddam with the Oklahoma City bombing] was written by Micah Morrison, a senior editorial writer at the Journal who gained a certain notoriety during the Clinton years by chasing all sorts of conspiracy theories, most notably that as governor of Arkansas, Clinton was somehow associated with a drug running operation out of a remote airport in Mena, Ark.

The Journal Op-Ed page routinely included false trash such as this, summarized by The Washington Times in October, 1996:
David Hale, the central Whitewater witness, predicts in his first prison interview -- "it's a certainty" -- that Hillary Rodham Clinton is going to be indicted after the election, according to the Wall Street Journal.

The convicted felon and former Little Rock judge also predicts Mrs. Clinton will be immediately pardoned by her husband. Former Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker will also be pardoned, he told Micah Morrison, writing for the Journal's commentary page.

The aforementioned Gene Lyons, who -- as a journalist for the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette -- tirelessly covered the Journal's rapid descent into the Rush Limbaugh Sewer, wrote in 1996 about the Editors' obsession with insinuating that Clinton bore responsibility for the murder of two teenagers in Mena, Arkansas on railroad tracks (Correction: the following was written by the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette's conservative Editorial page, not by Lyons):
The decline and fall of a great editorial page is a sad thing to watch, particularly when there seems no more stopping it than the onset of delirium tremens in an old friend who just can't stay off the stuff. The stuff in this case is the theory that Arkansas is one big conspiracy, and the old friend is one of the country's most prestigious and once most reliable editorial pages -- the Wall Street Journal's.

Animosity towards Bush is based almost exclusively on the policies he has implemented as President. Berkowitz all but acknowledges this, as the social events that have so upset him primarily involved his defense of Bush policies and strong reactions from critics -- little things like starting a war based on false pretenses, introducing torture to our country, spying on Americans in violation of our laws, etc. Indeed, Berkowitz describes the claims of the anti-Bush panelists who were mean to him this way:
They argued [that] Bush hatred was fully warranted considering his theft of the 2000 election in Florida with the aid of the Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Gore; his politicization of national security by making the invasion of Iraq an issue in the 2002 midterm elections; and his shredding of the Constitution to authorize the torture of enemy combatants.

By rather critical contrast, the WSJ Editors who today published Berkowitz's self-righteous screed spent the decade tearing down a President based on the most baseless and patently false smears. And they even explicitly defended the baselessness of their Drudge-like accusations. Their very own Peggy Noonan inadvertently articulated the WSJ's motto during the Clinton presidency with her incomparably corrupt justification for spewing all sorts of fantasies about the Clintons:
Was Mr. Clinton being blackmailed? The Starr report tells us of what the president said to Monica Lewinsky about their telephone sex: that there was reason to believe that they were monitored by a foreign intelligence service. Naturally the service would have taped the calls, to use in the blackmail of the president. Maybe it was Mr. Castro's intelligence service, or that of a Castro friend.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

This was all driven by an unbridled and pure hatred that was as ugly and personal as it was fact-free. The WSJ Editors bear primary responsibility for the fact that a lowly, filth-peddling gossip like Matt Drudge is the "Walter Cronkite of our era" and that Rush Limbaugh's filth is now par for our political course. All of that is bad enough. But to have to listen to them send forth into the world sermons against "Bush hatred" is really just way too much to bear.

UPDATE: As Thomas C notes in comments, Berkowitz is an official Foreign Policy Advisor to the campaign of Rupert Murdoch's favorite candidate, Rudy Giuliani, the well-known Beacon of Civility. Berkowitz is not a mere advisor to Giuliani; he's the "Senior Statecraft, Human Rights and Freedom Advisor."
This obviously relevant fact is something the WSJ didn't bother to disclose when publishing Berkowitz's Op-Ed on "Bush hatred." It looks the like WSJ has already stepped it up in the journalistic ethics competition to ensure that they stay ahead of their sister outlet, Fox News.

UPDATE II: So very unsurprisingly, Professor Berkowitz seems driven in life by a bruised ego. This conservative stalwart commenced and then pursued extremely protracted litigation against Harvard when he was denied tenure in 1997 (h/t teho). His entire lawsuit was eventually dismissed in 2003.
Berkowitz's presidential candidate loves to boast about his devotion to "tort reform" -- complaining about "frivolous lawsuits" and expensive "abuse of lawsuits". But Berkowitz happily takes advantage of the legal system to drag Harvard through expensive litigation all because he was denied tenure -- just like the aggressive tort-reformer Rick Santorum, who supported all sorts of legislation designed to limit personal injury and malpractice lawsuits for other people, all after his wife sued her chiropractor for $500,000 and collected $350,000. The greatest petulance and self-absorption is always found among our self-reliance sermonizing tough guys.

UPDATE III: Ironically, The Washington Post this morning has a front-page article reporting that the one thing the leading GOP candidates have in common -- including Berkowitz's Giuliani -- is their propensity for expressing crowd-pleasing contempt for Hillary Clinton:
They mock her proposals, utter her name with a sneer and win standing ovations by ridiculing her ideas as un-American, even socialistic. She has become the one thing the Republican candidates for president can agree on.

Hillary Clinton.
Earlier this year, the senator from New York was the subject of an occasional laugh line from former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani. Now, the trickle has become a torrent as the leading GOP candidates seek to one-up one another in a Clinton-bashing contest aimed at energizing their party faithful.
"The competition inside the GOP for who's the most anti-Hillary is going to pay dividends," said Greg Strimple, a GOP pollster and consultant who is not working with any presidential campaign. "Looking for that piece of anti-Hillary energy is what you're seeing right now."

The crux of today's Republican Party is, more or less, driven exclusively by animosity of this sort. It's defined far more by common hatred of Enemies, foreign and especially domestic, than by any affirmative ideas. It is the Party of Rush Limbaugh, and few things are more absurd than listening to their adherents lecture the world on how distorting and bad the emotion of hatred is.

UPDATE IV: Speaking of absurd right-wing hypocrites motivated in life by a bruised ego, reader TD emails to remind me of the $1 million personal injury lawsuit against the Yale Club filed several months ago by conservative tough guy Robert Bork. Bork "is claiming that he fell while trying to step onto a dais to speak" and claims "the absence of a handrail or stairs caused him to fall." He "suffered" a "hematoma" (i.e., a bruise) on his leg, which burst. Needless to say, Bork is a long-time advocate of tort reform.

UPDATE V: Who could ever find anything to hate in this, on the day Peter Jennings (reading from a White House Press release) said Bush was to give his "end-of-the-war-in-Iraq speech"? Throughout the ABC News story, reporter Bob Woodruff refers to the war in the past tense ("Peter, the President landed in a plane that is called a Viking S-3B" that "in this particular war, was used to re-fuel other fighter airplanes"). At the end, Jennings said: "tonight, the President is going to describe how the war has essentially, if not officially, ended." Terry Moran then said in his report that the President, in his speech, would try to "sum up what he believes the war achieved." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GJUGUYsm68 Enjoy the you tube....Makes you feel kind of sick watching it.



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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 12:48:15 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Fast reply:

Welcome back, Domi.

(Moderated, huh?) 


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 1:19:48 PM   
domiguy


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Can you imagine that?  The perfect lodger the perfect guest.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 7:44:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Many on the left refer to Hillary as a bitch


Names? Source?

quote:

So now, you're insisting that Republicans, after eight years of Bush-bashing madness begine referring to Hillary Clinton with soft, kind, sweet words of love, affection and devotion.


Sanity, you really do have a gift for mischaracterizing what people say. I can't decide whether it's misapprehension or intellectual dishonesty. No one expects political opponents to tender "soft, kind, sweet words of love, affection and devotion" to one another What I did naively hope is that Republicans who are, as the OP did, lamenting the role that hatred and vitriol play in damaging our politics will also give a thumbs-down to hatred and vitriol arising from their own ranks. Doing so would be consistent. Doing so would be decent. Is that too much to expect from Republicans?

quote:

When you yourself came up with the term "bitch" in relation to her all on your own?


I've no Earthly idea who the antecedent of "you" is in this sentence. It certainly isn't me.

quote:

There's a huge difference between what FHK refers to as insane hatred, and calling a spade a spade.


The difference seems to be that when your side trades in vitriol--for which label the word "bitch" certainly qualifies--you are unable or unwilling to recognizes that it's just as hateful as anything said about President Bush.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 11/16/2007 8:02:56 PM >


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 8:00:27 PM   
Owner59


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  Aren`t the perceived qualities of leadership in men,viewed as being a bitch with women?

Fair or not,there`s a double standard and a higher expectation that Hillary will have to overcome.



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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:01:05 PM   
Sanity


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Names, sources? That's kind of a silly request, in my opinion. I am not going to spend all night trying to prove to you that the earth is round or that cows go moo or that a lot of people think Hillary is a bitch. You must be a real Hillary person to not see that one, that a lot of people on both sides of the aisle think she's a bitch. And not everyone thinks that being a bitch is a bad thing, either. Maybe your misunderstanding with me is partially the definition of the word bitch... how you see it and how I see it. I think you're misunderstanding a lot of what I said, of what I intended to say.

That bit about your wanting Republicans to refer to Hillary Clinton with soft, kind, sweet words of love, affection and devotion was all sarcasm, by the way. You seem to have missed that. Maybe I should have pointed that out better, with the [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] things.

I didn't want to offend you or to hijack FHK's topic, my intention was to stay fully on topic here. I just wanted to say that the hatred that I've been seeing towards the President is pretty insane, and that some hatred can be justified and that other hatred can't. The fact that your side calls him "Chimpy" or "Monkey Boy" is classic dehumanization... but that to me, the term "bitch" isn't dehumanizing in the way I've typically heard it used. The term "bitch" can be used many ways, it can even be used with affection, can't it. It can be used in fun... It isn't meant to dehumanize, like "Chimpy" is.

A lot of it is the level of hatred. As I said before, I honestly suspect (as a lot of people do) that the Clintons sold ballistic missile technology to the Chinese and that because of them my children and my grandchildren now live in a far more dangerous world as a result, and here I am merely calling Hillary a bitch as a result. That's not so bad, really, is it? I'm not advocating criminal charges against her, or that someone do something nasty to her, I just think she's a fucking bitch, and I don't want her anywhere near the White House.

She isn't a dog or a monkey, she's a woman, she is a human being, but I really dislike her and I would crawl over broken glass to vote against her.

Does that make my position more clear to you, dcnovice?




< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/16/2007 9:17:04 PM >


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:17:20 PM   
dcnovice


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Why not simply say, as you have, that you dislike her and why? (I'm not a huge fan myself, btw.)

Dragging in locker-room talk like "fucking bitch" only makes American political discourse even coarser than it is now. What's the difference between saying that Clinton is a fucking bitch and Bush a fucking idiot? Neither bit of vitriol serves the public well, imho.

My perspective might make more sense if we bear in mind that this thread was started by one of our Republican posters to draw disapproving attention to "the hatred that is so pervasive and accepted by the 'progressive left' in America." Given that context, I think it's important to note that political hatred is decidely a bipartisan business in America.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 11/16/2007 9:25:49 PM >


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:21:00 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Aren`t the perceived qualities of leadership in men,viewed as being a bitch with women?

Fair or not,there`s a double standard and a higher expectation that Hillary will have to overcome.





That's fair enough, you have a point. Strong women do have that particular stereotype, rightly or wrongly - it's a matter of taste or opinion. Judgement... 

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:25:15 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Why not simply say, as you have, that you dislike her and why? (I'm not a huge fan myself, btw.)

Dragging in locker-room talk like "fucking bitch" only makes American political discourse even coarser than it is now. What's the difference between saying that Clinton is a fucking bitch and Bush a fucking idiot? Neither bit of vitriol serves the public well, imho.


As I said before, there are levels of hatred, and reasons for hating. She threatens my kids, yet I don't dehumanize her, I just hate her and I call her a fucking bitch as a result. I don't think that's going to far, but were I to dehumanize her by calling her an ape girl, that would be Nazi like of me.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:30:04 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Why not simply say, as you have, that you dislike her and why? (I'm not a huge fan myself, btw.)

Dragging in locker-room talk like "fucking bitch" only makes American political discourse even coarser than it is now. What's the difference between saying that Clinton is a fucking bitch and Bush a fucking idiot? Neither bit of vitriol serves the public well, imho.


As I said before, there are levels of hatred, and reasons for hating. She threatens my kids, yet I don't dehumanize her, I just hate her and I call her a fucking bitch as a result. I don't think that's going to far, but were I to dehumanize her by calling her an ape girl, that would be Nazi like of me.


We'll have to agree to disagree on whether calling someone a "fucking bitch" is dehumanizing.

If it's okay for you to hate Hillary, why all the fuss about folks' hating Bush? It seems like a major double standard. Bear in mind that Bush, by utterly squandering the goodwill the world felt toward American after 9/11 and blowing the surplus, has done your kids some disservices of his own.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 9:43:04 PM   
Sanity


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Some would say that by investing in freeing fifty million people in Iraq and Afghanistan and therefore providing twin beacons of Liberty, Democracy and Enlightenment for all of the oppressed people of the Middle East and everywhere else, President Bush is heralding in a golden age on this planet and a period of peace and prosperity that no one is capable of even imagining.

To me, Your side insists that the Right consists of monkey people, incapable of intelligent thought or decent intentions, you dehumanize us, you aren't even willing to listen to reason... all because Gore lost a tight race in 2000 and many on the Left have been in a rage ever since then.

Bottom line.

And good night.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/16/2007 9:44:53 PM >


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 11:11:13 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Some would say that by investing in freeing fifty million people in Iraq and Afghanistan and therefore providing twin beacons of Liberty, Democracy and Enlightenment for all of the oppressed people of the Middle East and everywhere else, President Bush is heralding in a golden age on this planet and a period of peace and prosperity that no one is capable of even imagining.



I understand that some people are that disassociated with reality.

Before Reagan, there were institutions where they could be kept safe and cared for.

Under Bush Jr., they're deciding policy.

I understand that in Iraq, the party with the greatest representation gets to choose the Prime Minister, who serves a 4 year term.

That would be the United Iraqi Alliance, and on Feb 12, 2005 the UIA selected Ibrahim al-Jaafari.

How's he doing in the job of Prime Minister?

Oh, he's NOT Prime Minister? So much for Liberty, Democracy and Enlightenment, eh?

It's just like when the Palestinians elected Hamas. The moment The People of some nation VOTE differently than US Interests would like them, they're all of a sudden denounced as some sort of scam.

Wasn't that EXACTLY the scenario with the US refusing to participate in the UN mandated Vietnamese elections?


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/16/2007 11:53:34 PM   
luckydog1


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Not surprisingly, your understanding of Iraqi politics is where the problem is Farg.  The prime minister has to have 2/3 of the parlimentary seats.   (184 votes).   The UIA got 113 votes.  Like in most parlimentary systems, thye have to caucus with other parties to form a governemnt (get the 184 votes)  The UIA was able to form a coalition, but durring negotiations (rather complicated but not important to this) several of the smaller parties decided to balk if Jaffari was named PM, and there would not be 184 votes.  So they compromised and settled on Maliki.  Exactly as a democracy is supposed to work.

I have never heard of Hamas described as a scam.  Perhaps you could enlighten us with a source for that.  Hamas is the legally elected Government of Palestine.  A rather incompetent bunch, but thats who the Palestinians chose to govern.  And they get to live with the full consequences of that choice.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/17/2007 12:29:29 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Not surprisingly, your understanding of Iraqi politics is where the problem is Farg. The prime minister has to have 2/3 of the parlimentary seats.


Isn't that selecting the President under Article 67?

The Cabinet of Ministers ( and PM ) are covered under Article 73:

1. President names nominee of CoR bloc with largest number to form the Cabinet ( Election + 15 days )
2. PM-designate names Cabinet ( Designation + 30 days )
3. If PM-designate fails to form the cabinet during 30 days, President names new nominee for the post of Prime Minister.
4. PM-designate presents Cabinet to CoR. An ABSOLUTE MAJORITY evidences confidence.
5. If Cabinet doesn't gain confidence, President names another nominee to form the cabinet within fifteen days

So, how many violations of Article 73 can you count?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/17/2007 1:09:22 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Some would say that by investing in freeing fifty million people in Iraq and Afghanistan and therefore providing twin beacons of Liberty, Democracy and Enlightenment for all of the oppressed people of the Middle East and everywhere else, President Bush is heralding in a golden age on this planet and a period of peace and prosperity that no one is capable of even imagining.

To me, Your side insists that the Right consists of monkey people, incapable of intelligent thought or decent intentions, you dehumanize us, you aren't even willing to listen to reason... all because Gore lost a tight race in 2000 and many on the Left have been in a rage ever since then.

Bottom line.

And good night.


This is naive bullshit. Americans went into Afghanistan (with every right) to get the people behind 9/11 not to free the the nation from tyranny. After that the reason was to build a state that can function and so not be a place where terrorists could function from. America went into Iraq under the premise they had WMD (which every thinking person knew they didn't have) not to free them. Whatever the real motivation behind the Iraq invasion is, we will probably never know but Rumsfeld and Co have given us a clue. He was known to think that securing Iraq would help break Opec's stranglehold (although deminishing) on the price of oil and secure future resources for America.

As for freeing these people and let's assume this really was in the mind of the Bush administration, they went in without any apparent knowledge or any consideration for the socio-economic and political cultures of those countries and without regard for the consequences. What you seem to consider as freeing these people is imposing America's definition of freedom on them. Not all of the world consider America's definition of freedom as freedom. Corporate America and its imperialism isn't what that many people outside America consider to be freedom.

I did hear on German radio that Bush secured Blair's willingness to be the fig leaf over the invasion of Iraq by promising to pay much of the British costs. How true this is I don't know but it sounds pretty plausible to me, since Gordon Brown has said that America will be paying for the rebuilding costs in southern Iraq.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/17/2007 1:12:42 AM >


_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/17/2007 3:51:18 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
Farg, I was wrong, the 2/3 for PM was part of the Transitional Gov, not the permenant (current) one.  That being said.  Jaffini was the PM durring the transitional Gov, and when he was nominated by the UIA to the Permanent post, was unable to from a cabinet, then the UIA nominated Maliki who did from a cabinet and become PM.  They did not get it done in the required amount of days, so I guess that was a technical violation of some sort. 

What exactly is your problem with them following the process?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/17/2007 6:36:34 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Some would say that by investing in freeing fifty million people in Iraq and Afghanistan and therefore providing twin beacons of Liberty, Democracy and Enlightenment for all of the oppressed people of the Middle East and everywhere else, President Bush is heralding in a golden age on this planet and a period of peace and prosperity that no one is capable of even imagining.


This is naive bullshit.


And that is being so generous it's mind boggling.

Sanity, please tell me that was a joke! You actually believe that? I mean, for real?

WTF?


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 100
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