Collarchat.com

Join Our Community
Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

The ethics of sexually objectifying others


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> The ethics of sexually objectifying others Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 4:49:48 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone else if they have no idea it is happening to them?  Is it unethical to make them do something, for your own sexual pleasure, even though they are not aware that that's why you are having them do it, and they did not consent with the full knowledge that it was turning you on?  What if you are just looking at them?  What if you have asked them to do something, and it's harmless, but the purpose is for your sexual gratification and they did not agree to that?

This interesting dynamic/dilema occured to me when pondering a story idea someone inspired in me. I was working through the plot in my head, and I realized, it presents a very interesting situation.  The story idea in my mind was that a woman in a powerful position at a company hired a younger man as an assistant or in a lower role, and then as part of his job responsibilities, had him engage in acts that were more and more designed to give her sexual pleasure and objectify him (without him knowing).   For example, if she did something as simple as drop a few things off her desk as she was getting on a call, then gestured for him to pick them all up, he would be down on the ground. and she would be observing him, imagining that he was doing so as a slave to her, as a servant. Should he actually end up on his knees, all the better, and the entire time, he would have NO idea she was watching with the explicit intent to later masturbate through the memory in her mind.   Tasks could be more and more edgy, to the point of being subjective, but never crossing the line.

In reality, it's sexual harrasment.  I cannot help but think of the men in high powered positions that regularly engage in this kind of activity, kind of pushing the envelope but making sure it was never anything actionable.  But is it sexual harrasment if the victim party has no idea it is happening, and is blissfully unaware? If a woman wears a low cut blouse to advertise her cleavage and a boss keeps something at just the right level so she has to bend over, in his view, to get to it (and she has no idea), and he gets his rocks off (in his head, not outwardly), is that wrong?

It's ironic, because I am in a position now with my career that it could be easy for me to walk this line.  But I never, ever, ever even have considered even remotely going down that path, because it conflicts with my own ethics.  I make it a habit not to hire younger, attractive men, which might be its own form of reverse discrimination I suppose; but I don't need that kind of distraction.  If I ever came across one with talent so undeniable that I could not resist hiring him, that might cause some trouble, but I consider myself to be of strong enough moral character that it would not be a problem.

Still, the idea that someone could sexually objectify another person - without them knowing it -- presents an interesting moral dilema.  Is it wrong?

Akasha


_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 5:25:10 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
i'd like to think it is not, as i was doing it while i was sitting outside the ice cream shop earlier, eating ice cream, watching the guys coming out of the vitamin shop next door, stocking up on protein powder for the chritmas--new years holiday....they were quite yummy and quite oblivious to my sexual objectification....

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 5:26:18 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha


Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone else if they have no idea it is happening to them? Is it unethical to make them do something, for your own sexual pleasure, even though they are not aware that that's why you are having them do it, and they did not consent with the full knowledge that it was turning you on? What if you are just looking at them? What if you have asked them to do something, and it's harmless, but the purpose is for your sexual gratification and they did not agree to that?



This is what I think and only what I think.

If what they are doing is part of their job or their normal routine and it happens to turn you on I see no reason to share what you are thinking or feeling internally. Just make sure you keep it internal.

If you purposely change what they would normally do in order to get yourself off then I personally would consider that wrongly motivated. Eventually, especially if you repeated do this, they will feel something is off and then you've just opened the door to a lot of problems for yourself.

Let me use me as an example.

I like to watch men work, it turns me on, I'm sure many male doms would say the same about women.

So when we bought a dining room time and two decent looking young men lugged it in and set up it, I did indeed get a bit turned on. No problem there because I just thanked them and they left, job well done.

However had I said "no, we'll have to move it here" and then "not quite right, over here" merely for the sake of watching them work for my amusement I would not feel good about myself for doing that. To my mind that just being mean and exercising what little authority I have a as customer for my pure amusement. I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me and I try to think of that when I interact with others.

Beside I can have Fox do random work to amuse myself because he's fully aware plus he may play into it with his actions, clothing and attitude which turns out to be even hotter for me.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 5:28:36 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
Starting off with a generalization and some home-made psychology...

Women are basically a walking collection of fetish objects from breasts to ass to legs to the color of your hair to the curves of your hips. Naturally, as men, we are drawn to these objects and the mere sight of them inspiring sexual and erotic fantasies. For at least a few seconds, the average man is objectifying every woman he meets into a sexual object.

I work as a butcher in a grocery store and beleive me, we do it allllll day long with customers. Its my opinion that the average white collar worker is just a lot better at hiding it and keeping it in the realm of his own mind because its far less acceptable behavior than a blue collar type position.

If you want to conclude it is wrong as a woman, well...I can understand the reasoning behind that. However, in my book, the sexual objectification of women is just natural male response to the mass collection of fetish objects you have on those bodies of yours.

I can promise you that when I see some cleavage between two healthy C cups, the thoughts I have in response to it aren't "Did I leave the coffee maker on this morning?"



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 5:33:10 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
Actions the person are not aware of that don't make them or others uncomfortable are not sexual harassment.

Is it wrong to do it without them knowing?   Who knows...it is however, quite human to see someone attractive and think of possibilities, if that's unethical...well pretty much most of the world is unethical.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 6:46:15 PM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
 
 But is it sexual harrasment if the victim party has no idea it is happening, and is blissfully unaware?
My understanding of 'Sexual Harrassment' in Australia would not include what you believe.  The harrasser in your circumstance would have to acknowledge to others at the minimum (not necessarily the victim) their actions are sexually based for them to be identified as such.   Then there are the perspectives.  

A person say confronted with a charge of sexual harrassment for having their secretary( P.A. male or female) regularly bend over to pick up files regularly left close to the floor may in fact be oblivious to the sexual connotations but believe leaving the files close to the floor as optimal efficiency.   The bender of course may see it otherwise and a court will not necessarily believe the bender's view if the 'harrasser' has been consistant in their behaviour etc.    This issue could make for very interesting reading scenarios and would have considerable case law scenarios to explore.

Strangely with racial/sexual/offensive language - just because consenting people in a workplace may make comments jokes and be perfectly happy with it- does not negate a charge of racial/offensive/sexual harrassment being levelled  (and proved) against them.  If a person unrelated to the conversation takes offence and initiates action- it is proceedable.

Eg for the ridiculous perspective of two consenting workmates-  A indigenous workmate could call me a 'whitee' and he accept my good naturedness in calling him a blackfellah- but anyone overhearing this in a workplace who is offended by this (regardless of context) could instigate action against either or both of us.   I am fully aware that others could be severely offended just hearing 'whitee'  or 'blackfellah'.    Words are 'triggers' eg slut, whore and we all have a right to feeling respected.


_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 6:49:56 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Starting off with a generalization and some home-made psychology...

Women are basically a walking collection of fetish objects from breasts to ass to legs to the color of your hair to the curves of your hips. Naturally, as men, we are drawn to these objects and the mere sight of them inspiring sexual and erotic fantasies. For at least a few seconds, the average man is objectifying every woman he meets into a sexual object.

I work as a butcher in a grocery store and beleive me, we do it allllll day long with customers. Its my opinion that the average white collar worker is just a lot better at hiding it and keeping it in the realm of his own mind because its far less acceptable behavior than a blue collar type position.

If you want to conclude it is wrong as a woman, well...I can understand the reasoning behind that. However, in my book, the sexual objectification of women is just natural male response to the mass collection of fetish objects you have on those bodies of yours.

I can promise you that when I see some cleavage between two healthy C cups, the thoughts I have in response to it aren't "Did I leave the coffee maker on this morning?"




Agree 100% and will add to that that women do it to men just as much. There can be no ethics question about something that is so natural and if the objectified person does not know, it is not harassment.

Are you kidding me? At my last job, my boss was a total hottie, married with kids, happily and we got along great. I cannot tell you how many times we flirted and how often he would call me into his office to ask me something and I would get distracted by my thoughts of "I wonder what would happen if he would just throw me over the desk and rape me?"

He never knew what I was thinking and I objectified him and we were fine. I am sure he had thoughts himself about me.

Believe me, I work in white collar corporate America and this is part of doing business. Jeez, the day that someone does NOT think of me as a sexual object, is the day I will be upset.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/23/2007 6:52:30 PM >

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 6:50:29 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
A woman wearing low cut blouses in the office is advertizing her sexuality, she is inviting glances. A young man with a tight butt wearing clothes that show it off is doing the same.

And that's a lot different from someone not inviting these thoughts.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 6:53:11 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

If you purposely change what they would normally do in order to get yourself off then I personally would consider that wrongly motivated. Eventually, especially if you repeated do this, they will feel something is off and then you've just opened the door to a lot of problems for yourself.


My sentiments exactly.  Especially in the work place.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 7:25:21 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

If you purposely change what they would normally do in order to get yourself off then I personally would consider that wrongly motivated. Eventually, especially if you repeated do this, they will feel something is off and then you've just opened the door to a lot of problems for yourself.


My sentiments exactly.  Especially in the work place.


Would enjoyment at the window of the meat room where women lean over to look at the ground beef, giving the onlookers a cleavage shot fall into this category?

Keep in mind we didnt do anything but look.........

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 8:07:52 PM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
Yes, it is ethical.  Don't worry about it.  Now, how do I apply for this job?

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 8:22:52 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

If you purposely change what they would normally do in order to get yourself off then I personally would consider that wrongly motivated. Eventually, especially if you repeated do this, they will feel something is off and then you've just opened the door to a lot of problems for yourself.


My sentiments exactly.  Especially in the work place.


Would enjoyment at the window of the meat room where women lean over to look at the ground beef, giving the onlookers a cleavage shot fall into this category?

Keep in mind we didnt do anything but look.........


If they were bending and cleaving of their own accord or part of their daily job, then no problema and enjoy to your...um...heart's content!  If they were given things to do which they normally would not have needed to do, simply to get them to bend & cleave (I like that phrase, btw), then yeah, problema.

Now, at a previous job, I was in my boss's office with one of the executive admins.  I dropped a pencil on the floor and told Boss-man, when I bend over to pick it up, he should make a sexist comment that Miss Admin will witness, and when I sue for gazillions, I'll split it 3-ways...

A funny one was when I was bookkeeping at a restaurant and had to walk through the kitchen to get to the office.  Morning after morning, I heard all the vulgar comments, in Spanish, by the Mexican cooks, until one day I winked and answered back, in Spanish.  I've never seen so many mouths drop open at once.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 8:44:41 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline
Sexual harassment is NOT merely being provacative in the workplace: It's when those in a position of power over you make sex or sexual activity a requirement to either staying employed, or for advancement in your position.

Now, you might make a case for "creating a hostile work enviroment" which is a bit of a different story. But if the underling in question is totally unaware of your attentions, I doubt the ethics are really all that questionable. After all, to stretch the point, how often have any of us seen someone at the supermarket, or on the street, and filed their image away in the back of our heads for later use? Does finding a pretense for chatting them up a bit become unethical? Hardly. By extension, does watching them move into various positions constitute harassment? I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to me that if they are unaware, there's no real harm in the actions... Now, if they were to suddenly realize what you were doing, and were upset by it, and you tried to continue your not-so-innocent demands, THEN I think you might be stepping over the line...

I used to work for a University Theatre Department. Every year, there was a fresh crop of incredibly attractive young people who would take my stagecraft class. Quite often, if they failed to keep to my rules about leaving the scene shop in the same level of cleanliness as they found it, they would be assigned to various jobs to make up for it. Funny how many of those same hotties ended up cleaning out long forgotten cabinets of paint and woodstain, or resorting leftover screws by bending over a low table...

Yeah, I'm guilty of this too. But what the hell... for the moment, looking is not a crime. Neither is fantasizing about them later...

One young lady DID catch me admiring her ass in a set of low-rise jeans once. Her response was to find it amusing. (After she graduated, we actually saw each other for a short time. But as with many budding relationships between people 20 years apart in age, we didn't have that much in common, so it didn't last.)

However, I DID have one case of sexual harassment happen to me. Once, in the first years I was out on my own, I got fired from my job, and fell behind on my rent. I was several states away from any family, and had no friends I could move in with temporarily. So I was pretty much stuck. My landlady made it quite plain I was welcome to stay... if I serviced her on a regular basis. (It was still better than sleeping in my car.) THAT was uncomfortable, and degrading. (I did not find her the least bit attractive.) So, I tend to be rather overly sensative to this issue because of it.

But I don't find this hypothetical situation to be the least bit unethical.

Besides, Aakasha, aren't you the one who recently wrote a story about female torturers working over males in some sort of prison situation? One of the Dommes even poisoned her prisoner, and the only way he (or so he thought) could get the antidote was to suck off her strap on?

And you're worried about the equivilent of asking the truckstop waitress to bend over the table to refill the sugar bowls, just so you can admire her curves, in order to give her a bigger tip?

Com'on....  LOL 

(in reply to slavekal)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 8:44:42 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I work as a butcher in a grocery store and beleive me, we do it allllll day long with customers.



So MR, when I press my ample cleavage up against the glass on the meat case, do you really throw a little extra in my package or is that my imagination??

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 8:46:21 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
<hijack>

quote:

work as a butcher in a grocery store


Well, damn. I wish I'd known that when I was trying to find suet for plum pudding!

</hijack>

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 10:28:33 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


If what they are doing is part of their job or their normal routine and it happens to turn you on I see no reason to share what you are thinking or feeling internally. Just make sure you keep it internal.

If you purposely change what they would normally do in order to get yourself off then I personally would consider that wrongly motivated. Eventually, especially if you repeated do this, they will feel something is off and then you've just opened the door to a lot of problems for yourself.



This really sums up how I feel about it. I can't help the fact that I get aroused by men with that just right scent of sweat and hard work about them. But if I were to start breaking things around the house just so that I could have men come fix them, even though I was paying them, I wouldn't feel honest about it. I don't mind if someone enjoys the view of my cleavage in a nice sweater, but people start dropping things so that they can get a better view while I pick them up, or having me do extra jumping jacks in the gym to watch them jiggle, I consider that harassment, regardless of if I catch on or not.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 10:38:49 PM   
PronePalabras


Posts: 37
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
indeed it is only harrassment if they are aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable ...and they make this know ...or are we going to put blinders on everyone that has hormones now? besides ...many people like to be "Admired" now and then ...nothing makes a person smile inside more than knowing someone thinks your "cute" or "hot"...how would you feel if everyone looked the other way when you walked by or bent over ect? would be rather depressing

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/23/2007 10:45:21 PM   
MadameMarque


Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline
Yes, it's wrong.

"Those are my principles.  If you don't like them, I have others."
 
- Groucho Marx

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/24/2007 12:31:57 AM   
Kostly


Posts: 60
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
by definition the law states that harrasment only occurs after an act has been committed, and the "victem" asks it to be stopped, yet it continues. 

In practice businesses are quick to jump the gun and fire the person on the first complaint of "inapropriate" activities.  It is the victem to define what is inapropriate and it is the person doing the act to stop.  If the act is not stopped, then it becomes harassment.

The problem is, that I could say or do something that was and is not offensive to me.  Had no intention of hurting anyone, yet was perceived very differently then what I wanted.  The individual doing the "harrassment" deserves to be told to STOP, and that should be respected.  Individuals who do not stop, are wrong and in violation of the law.

Then again, it would pain me to find a single thread on this site where someone doesn't harrass another person.  It is also the same people that do it again and again... If I ask these people to stop, and they dont, there is nothing I can do about it.

Off topic.
----------
There is much worst types of harassment then sexual harrassment.  How about the daily abuse some students face on a day to day bases in middle school and high school.  I have had 3 friends from my group of 8 kill themselves in about 4 years after highschool.  They told people, students, teachers, even the principle for this harrassment to stop, but little happened.

Unfortunately I was in the same situation.  And it effected me very negatively for a very long period of time.  I have recovered, and am living a life that is extremely happy and fullfilling.  However my group of friends were talking about bringing bombs and guns into school well before Colombine.  I wish we brought law suits against the school... and yes, the schools are responsible for stopping harrassment as much as what is done in the work place.

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The ethics of sexually objectifying others - 12/24/2007 12:43:53 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PronePalabras

indeed it is only harrassment if they are aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable ...and they make this know ...or are we going to put blinders on everyone that has hormones now? besides ...many people like to be "Admired" now and then ...nothing makes a person smile inside more than knowing someone thinks your "cute" or "hot"...how would you feel if everyone looked the other way when you walked by or bent over ect? would be rather depressing


If someone calls me a nasty name behind my back but I am never made aware of it, is the comment any less nasty? It's not harrassment in legal terms no. I can't sue over it if I realize the problem, address the problem and it stops.

But just because some people like to be admired is no excuse for someone to create situation in which to get a better view. This isn't about seeing someone attractive and going "Yummy", this is about creating situations in which to enjoy it without the other person knowing.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to PronePalabras)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> The ethics of sexually objectifying others Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.086