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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 1:31:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

This is a fascinating thread.

And I believe that God created us as sexual beings for a reason - well, several reasons: reproduction, yes, but amoebas reproduce asexually, so why not Man? God wants us to be happy and have fun - and to have pleasure; the way in which we express that pleasure is up to us, as long as we don't harm anyone.

i have often wondered what it is that humankind gives God that He wouldn't already have. What kind of sick Bastard sets us up to fail, creates a 'forbidden' tree so that He can blame every evil thing, every damnation on His own innocent victims? Doesn't make any kind of logical sense whatsoever! Jesus said God is like my Dad. my Dad wants me to be happy, have fun, be productive and enjoy everything life has to offer, but also wants to keep me safe, even safe from myself. The OT laws weren't designed to make our lives miserable, the sexual and dietary laws were set up to keep people of the time healthy. God wanted people to avoid food-borne
illnesses, STDs, and other health-related issues. Not unlike a parent saying "don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where its been" Is the message any different just because the Centers for Disease Control says it instead of God?

It amazes me how much 'church' focuses on the precieved negatives but never about the positives. What about leaving grain in the field for the poor to gather? Forgiving debts every seven years? Taking care of the widow and orphan? Excusing a newlywed from military service? Eating meat from the daily sacrifice ensured that everyone ate without having to be reduced to begging. Lots of good stuff there that everyone ignores.

The Yoruba religion is facinating. They have a tale similar to the Tower of Babel but in their story, each nation was given the Truth but it broke and each then carried a piece of the Truth and only through unity of all the world's religions will the entire Truth be known.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 4:39:59 AM

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my 2 pfennings, for what they are worth...

Firstly, my understanding of Jewish law (as told to me by an Orthodox Jewish friend years ago) *requires* that a man please his wife sexually, as she is to please him. It is one of the tenets of Jewish marriage. (If i am wrong, please correct me. i was told this years ago.) It would not be required if God felt that sex should not be pleasurable. Since Judaic Law predates Christianity, it cannot follow that sex is wrong. This was a later addition by Christians and brought to new levels of insanity by the Puritans (who unfortunately, were the biggest influence on the birth of the US, lucky us!)

i was raised in the Bible-belt, went to a church that splintered off Assemblies of God (can you say "allelujah??" AMEN!). Since then i have made a study of various religions. i've read the entire Bible, parts of the Koran and Torah (translated of course), teachings of Buddha and Wicca. My conclusion from all the research? 1) that religions are pretty much the same. They teach the same tenets -- do not kill, do not lie, do not cheat -- but teach different ways to worship. We are all pretty much worshipping the same Deity. 2) Organized religion is wrong. One person should not tell another what to believe and how to worship that Deity. It all ends up being about power and money.

These are my beliefs. *shrug*. The Deity i worship does not care who you sleep with or how many , as long as it harms no one (which makes cheating and lying about it wrong). If someone gets spanked in the process or tied up, it's all good as long as it is consensual (see the 'no harm' part above).

g
(who figures another cup of coffee is required before she gets on her soapbox again)

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 5:19:33 AM

Dari

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quote:

What kind of sick Bastard sets us up to fail, creates a 'forbidden' tree so that He can blame every evil thing, every damnation on His own innocent victims?

An interesting stance, and not really one I'd expect to find on these boards.

The way of thinking of it that has always made sense to me is: If you believe that God created everything, then everything belongs to him. And following that, he has the right to decide whether or not we are allowed access to those things he considers his. If he wants something kept especially for him (like the tree), what right do we have to say him nay?

In the Biblical account (focusing on the good as you say), he gave them everything in the garden - all the trees, fruits, everywhere to live. He gave them a purpose, and a goal, and everything they needed to be satisfied and taken care of, and he kept only one tree, out of the entire garden/earth, especially to himself. And that makes him a "sick Bastard" who "sets us up to fail" in your estimation? And it's not like you're alone in this opinion either. But here's a story for you.

A sub comes to the board and posts in one of the forums, and tells the following tale:

"My Master is awesome. I am absolutely secure, I know that he loves me, and I am provided for in every way. He cares for my physical and emotional needs, and makes sure I have lots to keep me busy and entertained. He's good about pushing me to grow as a person, and I know he really cares. My problem is - he has this box that he keeps in the house, and I'm not allowed to open it. I don't know what's inside, though he said what's in there is dangerous. He told me not to touch it, but I can't help being drawn to it.

Should I open the box?"

How long, exactly, do you think the thread would be telling that sub to not open the box? How many times would it be repeated that the box is the property of the Master, and it wasn't her place to open the box.

And how many people are going to flame the Master for daring to have something of his own, that he keeps from her?

They weren't starving. They wanted for nothing. They just couldn't bear it that God had something that they couldn't have, and so, like a wicked, willful sub, they went behind his back, ignored his express instruction, and did what they want to anyway. He released them immediately, for the breach of trust and lack of respect and obedience. Seems like a rational, logical thing to do. In point of fact, putting more of our terms into the account - he did say that this rule was tantamount to a hard limit, as he said the penalty for eating from the tree was death. They didn't physically die in that moment, but when they did 'fess up, it was the death of their relationship.

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 5:37:33 AM

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The "Eden" story is also very primal, in that it is the first instance of the literary tradition of the "plot hole riddled" storyline. So many contradictory facts, so many actions that make no sense at all. Maybe the writers of the Bible wanted to start the novel off at it's weakest point, then build to a good climax, with the Clive Barker/Stephen King ending.

It's kind of like King Kong... why would a tribe of people build a huge wall to keep the ape out, and then build a doorway large enough for him to get through? Besides, if Kong can scale a mountain, and later the Empire State Building, couldn't have gotten over the puny wall? Why would a bunch of guys go to Skull Island, encounter incredible dinosaurs, but then think they'd get rich by taking the APE back to NY?

The Bible is like that: it's filled with crap that just seemed like a good story at the time.

Thus it is with their anti-sex teachings.

(in reply to Dari)

RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 6:07:10 AM

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Sets the soap box on fire to end this thread.

(in reply to bipolarber)

RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 6:07:43 AM

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There are no atheists in fox holes

William T. Cummings

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 6:12:02 AM

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Adam and Eve are a pair of wax figures frolicking amongst the dinosaurs (the Earth is just about 6000 years old, right?). The proof is in the pudding:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/05/31/creation_museum/

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 6:12:28 AM

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quote:

The Bible is like that: it's filled with crap that just seemed like a good story at the time.

yes, like all the soap series on tv, still people follow/watch it :)

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 6:23:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
They have a tale similar to the Tower of Babel but in their story, each nation was given the Truth but it broke and each then carried a piece of the Truth and only through unity of all the world's religions will the entire Truth be known.

I love that!

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 6:46:06 AM

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Not ture Jefff I was in a fox hole once. She was very hot.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 8:38:44 AM

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Patriarchial values, which include female submission are largely encoded in Judeo-Christian religion, it's an economic adaptation to patramonial economic in which the eldest male child inherits - this means that assurances of paternity are a priority, thus the high value of virginity, suppression of feminine sexuality - i.e., if she enjoys sex than you can't trust her, etc. - some cultures going so far as clitorodectomy, etc., but expressed in Judeo-Christian tradition as social censure of sexually active or aggressive women (sluts), valuation of fidelity and submission, and extends to denial or trivilaizaiton of the female orgasm, etc.

The escalation to full scale Calvinist erotophobia however, is largely a product of postagrarian civilization in the Eighteenth and Ninteenth centuries, when young adults began leaving farms for the city, and the strict heterosexual/mongamous adaptations of agrarian patrimony began to break down, and people began to adapt to urban conditions, many of which are inimical to agrarian breeding values, birth control, polysexuality, etc.

There was always a Calvinist strain in Christianity, the Augustinian doctorine of innate depravity, etc., but it never gave poeple quite the fits it does now until the post civil war culture wars of the Ninteenth century, when the phenomona of large numbers of unmarried men and women in the cites spurred a Calvinist backlash against masturbation, homosexuality, sodomy, etc., which has expanded to cover almost every form of eroticism that isn't approved by Calvinists themselves, i.e., anything outside strict, married/monogamous, lights out, missionary position, woman as receptacle, for breeding purposes only sex, and it reflects the same old patriarchial, patramonial concerns - and technically, it's still considered in poor taste to ask for a paternity test, just watch Jerry Springer.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/17/2008 8:40:06 AM >

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 8:50:50 AM

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The complicating factor is largely psychological: fear of female sexuality, centered around female insatiability and consumption (vagina dentata), with resulting performance anxiety in the opposite sex.

This combines to an adaptation that favors feminine submission without regard for feminine satisfaction in a patramonial social economy.

(in reply to Amaros)

RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:01:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dari

quote:

What kind of sick Bastard sets us up to fail, creates a 'forbidden' tree so that He can blame every evil thing, every damnation on His own innocent victims?

An interesting stance, and not really one I'd expect to find on these boards.

The way of thinking of it that has always made sense to me is: If you believe that God created everything, then everything belongs to him. And following that, he has the right to decide whether or not we are allowed access to those things he considers his. If he wants something kept especially for him (like the tree), what right do we have to say him nay?

In the Biblical account (focusing on the good as you say), he gave them everything in the garden - all the trees, fruits, everywhere to live. He gave them a purpose, and a goal, and everything they needed to be satisfied and taken care of, and he kept only one tree, out of the entire garden/earth, especially to himself. And that makes him a "sick Bastard" who "sets us up to fail" in your estimation? And it's not like you're alone in this opinion either. But here's a story for you.

A sub comes to the board and posts in one of the forums, and tells the following tale:

"My Master is awesome. I am absolutely secure, I know that he loves me, and I am provided for in every way. He cares for my physical and emotional needs, and makes sure I have lots to keep me busy and entertained. He's good about pushing me to grow as a person, and I know he really cares. My problem is - he has this box that he keeps in the house, and I'm not allowed to open it. I don't know what's inside, though he said what's in there is dangerous. He told me not to touch it, but I can't help being drawn to it.

Should I open the box?"

How long, exactly, do you think the thread would be telling that sub to not open the box? How many times would it be repeated that the box is the property of the Master, and it wasn't her place to open the box.

And how many people are going to flame the Master for daring to have something of his own, that he keeps from her?

They weren't starving. They wanted for nothing. They just couldn't bear it that God had something that they couldn't have, and so, like a wicked, willful sub, they went behind his back, ignored his express instruction, and did what they want to anyway. He released them immediately, for the breach of trust and lack of respect and obedience. Seems like a rational, logical thing to do. In point of fact, putting more of our terms into the account - he did say that this rule was tantamount to a hard limit, as he said the penalty for eating from the tree was death. They didn't physically die in that moment, but when they did 'fess up, it was the death of their relationship.

I hope this is a metaphoric reference to Genesis, because I'm pretty sure the story of Creation has now been lobbed up there with all the other religious myths that have been disprove by science and fact.

I'm not picking on you specifically. I just find this thread kind of funny because there is a lot of arguing about facts regarding the Genesis....as if somehow it is is a literal and factual account of history.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:06:55 AM

RCdc

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MR I would have to disagree.
I see a discussion on the book of Genesis, whether true or not.
Take any book, and any amount of people and everyone will read it differently and have their take on what it means or is saying.

Whether its fiction or fact, hasn't really any baring.

the.dark.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:14:38 AM

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i'm really not trying to be offensive or down play anyone's views here.....However.....i guess this is part of what gets me about the people we've become...Truth is, for me? If it's not my religion....If it doesn't match my spiritual beliefs, than why exactly should/ does it matter to me? Is it just for the sake of arguement? i'm really not trying to be funny here, i'm serious. Why would it be any of my business what someone else believes to begin with?

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:17:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

MR I would have to disagree.
I see a discussion on the book of Genesis, whether true or not.
Take any book, and any amount of people and everyone will read it differently and have their take on what it means or is saying.

Whether its fiction or fact, hasn't really any baring.

the.dark.

Yes, if we mean solely in the philosophical sense, I would agree, but I have seen a few literal arguments thrown in these ten pages.

If someone's position that something is wrong or immoral based upon divine precedent set forth by historical events, I think whether those historical events are fiction or fact has quite a lot of bearing.

I never find the truth of information to be irrevelant, particularly when groups of people use that information to provide reasons for beliefs.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:18:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i'm really not trying to be offensive or down play anyone's views here.....However.....i guess this is part of what gets me about the people we've become...Truth is, for me? If it's not my religion....If it doesn't match my spiritual beliefs, than why exactly should/ does it matter to me? Is it just for the sake of arguement? i'm really not trying to be funny here, i'm serious. Why would it be any of my business what someone else believes to begin with?

you have a point of course. But actually that is the case with all things. It is actually non of our business. But in forums things are discussed.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:20:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

Why would it be any of my business what someone else believes to begin with?

It depends on the belief.

If you beleive that homosexuality is wrong, I could care less and its not arguable, because its an opinion (outside of any facts you used to support that opinion).

If you beleive that the Sun is actually a fiery chariot driven by a god who descends from a mountain each morning and are teaching that belief to your children and other people's children as the "truth", then yes, I would care.

There is a line between respecting beliefs and tolerating ignorance.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:23:49 AM

RCdc

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I didn't say nor mean it wasn't relevant, just has no baring.
I happen to have a strong spiritual belief. However I am also aware that the bible is fictional. But just because I understand the fictional value of biblical or any other religious teaching, doesn't make my belief less. (Hence has no baring).

Hope that made what I said clearer.

the.dark.

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RE: Some religions believe - 1/17/2008 9:26:04 AM

RCdc

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I don't know MR - if you believe that homosexuality is wrong yes that is a belief, but if it's based on teaching from a book, then that's no different to your second point?

the.dark.

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