quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

While the niqab is justified in the Hadith and to some extent in the Quran, I do believe its usage is fundamentally more cultural than religious in nature.   As with so many things in ethnically derived religions, the line between religion and culture is quite blurry--but anything culturally based would certainly belong in the same category as leashes.

Then we run full circle and go back to the reasons WHY people in the general public react badly when they see a woman being led on a leash -- culture.  We live in an era where it isn't ok to demoralize women and women should have equality, just like races should.  To the untrained eye, a male leading a woman on a leash may very well be that spark that lights a roaring fire of hatred and bigotry, even though we know that "in our world", that leash is empowerment, love and a whole lot of positives that the mun public could never imagine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

...snip...

I would also like to add that if you really feel this way, I think you must ask yourself if you are prepared to become an advocate for social change and work to educate the public as to the symbolism and significance of the collar and leash in the lifestyle. This act of dominance and submission will never be viewed by the public as anything more than diminishing human life to that of the likes of animals. What society would want that? This is a perfect example of why social norms exist to begin with. Changing them requires education and activism.

I agree that education and activism are vaulable tools in effecting change.  But how do we know that these two individuals are active BDSMers?  fetish clothing (and accessories like collars and leashes) have become fairly mainstream (think Hot Topic). Collars and leashes on girlfriends/boyfriends are no longer solely the property of kinksters *grin*

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Idiot may have been too strong a word, but the sentiment still stands. They are young, self centered, provoking, lacking in empathy for others(with regards to this issue), have a sense of entitlement, and behave foolishly. But these are not necessarily bad things for their age. Who among us did not have at least some of those qualities when we were their age. But, as agents of social change, who would ever listen to them?

If you and Darcy chose the same course of action, you would likely get the same response they did. You know this in advance, so why would you do it? From what I can tell, you and Darcy are intelligent, thoughtful, and mature adults. Why, if you were striving for social acceptance of your kink, would you act in such a provacative manner? You guys are artists, and according to your profile, accomplished ones. Why would you chose this course of action which will only serve to provoke and incite, when you could produce imagery and words that would inspire discourse, push boundaries open hearts and change minds? That, to me, is the difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
Idiot may have been too strong a word, but the sentiment still stands. They are young, self centered, provoking, lacking in empathy for others(with regards to this issue), have a sense of entitlement, and behave foolishly. But these are not necessarily bad things for their age. Who among us did not have at least some of those qualities when we were their age. But, as agents of social change, who would ever listen to them?

If you and Darcy chose the same course of action, you would likely get the same response they did. You know this in advance, so why would you do it? From what I can tell, you and Darcy are intelligent, thoughtful, and mature adults. Why, if you were striving for social acceptance of your kink, would you act in such a provacative manner? You guys are artists, and according to your profile, accomplished ones. Why would you chose this course of action which will only serve to provoke and incite, when you could produce imagery and words that would inspire discourse, push boundaries open hearts and change minds? That, to me, is the difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

...snip...

I would also like to add that if you really feel this way, I think you must ask yourself if you are prepared to become an advocate for social change and work to educate the public as to the symbolism and significance of the collar and leash in the lifestyle. This act of dominance and submission will never be viewed by the public as anything more than diminishing human life to that of the likes of animals. What society would want that? This is a perfect example of why social norms exist to begin with. Changing them requires education and activism.

I agree that education and activism are vaulable tools in effecting change.  But how do we know that these two individuals are active BDSMers?  fetish clothing (and accessories like collars and leashes) have become fairly mainstream (think Hot Topic). Collars and leashes on girlfriends/boyfriends are no longer solely the property of kinksters *grin*

I believe there was some reference in this thread about the couple making statements (Master/pet kind of thing) which would indicated that they were into/knowledgeable about the lifestyle.

"The couple involved have just appeared on the Jeremy Vine radio show on BBC Radio 2, and I caught the last fifteen minutes of their interview as I was driving. They came across as intelligent, articulate people, who were somewhat surprised by the attention their complaint has caused.

Far from being the benefit scrounging wastrels that the media would have you believe, she is actually at college, and he is about to start a course to become a community carer, working with the disabled and disadvantaged children. (All of which may be merely good PR, of course, but if so then they certainly talked a good talk)

Re the lifestyle, however, they struck me as being into the lifestyle for the 'image' rather than the way of life. The girl described herself as submissive, yet the boy is the one who does all the cooking, cleaning, and other tasks that for me would be encompassed by the whole 'service' ethos. As a humourous aside, she also claimed to be heavily into gothic music, but had no idea who Joy Division were when Vine raised the point. "

"Overall, they appeared to be a pleasant couple, who have done nothing particularly wrong. In fact, when I was younger I used to go out in spandex trousers, and I suggest that the sight of a collar and leash is infinitely less disturbing that my extremely visible schlong bulge was  "

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

What you're describing is assault, and a racially-motivated hate crime, but it's NOT discrimination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

Regardless of this, there are things that it is inappropriate for children of a certain age, specifically quite young, to see.

quote:

Although each parent must draw the line where they will, I believe that most would agree that an open flogging taking place on public tranport would be a good place to draw that line.

quote:

On the other hand, I don't feel that a woman wearing a collar and leash for her dominant is in any capacity something that crosses that line. That is the point I was trying to get across.  If I didn't do that clearly, I apologize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

 So I have to ask... why is it the dressed person has to be the one solely to blame, and not the reactions of the attackers?  Seriously, it comes to the point - and this isn;t the first time I have said this in the past couple of weeks, where a girl cannot walk down the street in a short skirt, and have to expect to be called a whore?  Expect to be touched up? 
 
And yes as artists we do try and promote and provoke with our imagery and writings, and with our photography.
 
the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Asher, can I ask you something? Is there nothing you find objectionable for public consumption? Think beyond kink for a moment. And forget the obvious, like criminal or violent behavior, gratuitous cruelty, and things of that nature. Is there nothing that would shock you or give you pause if you accidently saw it? If you can imagine anything that would not be appropriate (that is within the law), is it so hard to accept that others may find things objectionable as well, such as kink?

In other words, is it your position that any behavior/dress within the law should be acceptable? If not, how do you propose that we establish boundaries and guidelines for public display/consumption?

quote:

Asher, can I ask you something? Is there nothing you find objectionable for public consumption? Think beyond kink for a moment. And forget the obvious, like criminal or violent behavior, gratuitous cruelty, and things of that nature. Is there nothing that would shock you or give you pause if you accidently saw it? If you can imagine anything that would not be appropriate (that is within the law), is it so hard to accept that others may find things objectionable as well, such as kink?

In other words, is it your position that any behavior/dress within the law should be acceptable? If not, how do you propose that we establish boundaries and guidelines for public display/consumption?

quote:

Idiot may have been too strong a word, but the sentiment still stands. They are young, self centered, provoking, lacking in empathy for others(with regards to this issue), have a sense of entitlement, and behave foolishly. But these are not necessarily bad things for their age. Who among us did not have at least some of those qualities when we were their age. But, as agents of social change, who would ever listen to them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

Everyon quoting the question... noone quoting the answer.. :(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Th3AbbyNormal

well, after reading this im somewhat saddened, little confused and wondering what the big deal was all about. she was one a leash, why is that so hard for the bus driver guy to understand.
whenever im out in public with my husband i am on a leash. yes it gets attention, it gets comments and  for the most part there hasnt  been any negitive reactions, aside from one guy who actually tried to unlock the collar and remove the leash because it didnt fit into how he though a woman should be treated.
are we wrong for doing this? i dont think so. its not sexual in any and we arnt hurting anyone, like so many of the other posters have said, its like holding hands. nothing more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

The couple involved have just appeared on the Jeremy Vine radio show on BBC Radio 2, and I caught the last fifteen minutes of their interview as I was driving. They came across as intelligent, articulate people, who were somewhat surprised by the attention their complaint has caused.

Far from being the benefit scrounging wastrels that the media would have you believe, she is actually at college, and he is about to start a course to become a community carer, working with the disabled and disadvantaged children. (All of which may be merely good PR, of course, but if so then they certainly talked a good talk)

Re the lifestyle, however, they struck me as being into the lifestyle for the 'image' rather than the way of life. The girl described herself as submissive, yet the boy is the one who does all the cooking, cleaning, and other tasks that for me would be encompassed by the whole 'service' ethos. As a humourous aside, she also claimed to be heavily into gothic music, but had no idea who Joy Division were when Vine raised the point.

Overall, they appeared to be a pleasant couple, who have done nothing particularly wrong. In fact, when I was younger I used to go out in spandex trousers, and I suggest that the sight of a collar and leash is infinitely less disturbing that my extremely visible schlong bulge was 

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Social acceptance of something new is never a painless path. People, as a group, hate change.

But this thread just keeps running around the point: If you are different, you deserve what you get and I've got some questions that haven't been answered...

1) If one of my vanilla friends wore a collar and leash because it appealed to them as an accessory and they were treated the same, would they also be idiots exposing the public to a kink? If not, why is it impossible for us to also wear these items as a fashion accessory?

quote:


2) For various reasons (none including anything so interesting as making a statement), I recently dyed my hair an unnatural color. That makes me different from the social norms, at least around here. I used to have a lot of piercings. If the sight of these things offends someone, should I be kept off a bus and called freak? I mean, if the logic here is that "different from the norm means you deserve what you get"...

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Asher, can I ask you something? Is there nothing you find objectionable for public consumption? Think beyond kink for a moment. And forget the obvious, like criminal or violent behavior, gratuitous cruelty, and things of that nature. Is there nothing that would shock you or give you pause if you accidently saw it? If you can imagine anything that would not be appropriate (that is within the law), is it so hard to accept that others may find things objectionable as well, such as kink?

In other words, is it your position that any behavior/dress within the law should be acceptable? If not, how do you propose that we establish boundaries and guidelines for public display/consumption?

Is it your contention that there exists the inalienable right of the individual not to be offended?