RE: A man's voice should be his own.

RE: A man's voice should be his own. (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:09:30 AM)
quote: At times it takes someone to say "God damn America" to get people's attention...You think that there are not serious and real complaints that people have experienced at the hands of this Country? Aids? Foreign relations? Hurricane Katrina? Just to name a few. We live in a great land...But being an American is not easy. Being an American gives us the right to confront our leaders and Country. Too many think that exercising that "right" makes one unpatriotic....I say that it is more than a right it is our responsibility...It is the very thing that defines an "American Citizen." DG, I think Senator Obama would have won by acclimation if he made such a statement. I was hoping for exactly that. What a great opportunity missed.

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:09:35 AM)
Then I will assume your insistance on responsibility for others' words will include John McCain, as he has welcomed the endorsement of Pastor John Hagee? Hagee-isms: "Islam in general -- those who live by the Koran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews." "All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area, that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it would was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing." Catholic leaders asked McCain to distance himself from Hagee over anti-Catholic comments such as calling the Catholic Church "The Great Whore." McCain said, "all I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee's support." --http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/02/29/politics/horserace/entry3892932.shtml Indeed, it seems to me you will be hard pressed to find anyone who would not have some connection in their life/past that has said or done something that would be objectionable to many.

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:10:43 AM)
quote: Think of it like this......your boys, against your order, embarass you.......you them have to stand up and deal with that. Surely thats exactly what Obama has done with this speech. Except Wright has not repudiated his words--not to my knowledge at any rate. If Wright stands by his preaching, and Obama stands by Wright, of what value is Obama's "rejection" of the preaching? Obama takes the stance of rejecting Wright's sermons but then seeks to shield Wright from consequence. Being accountable in this context includes taking the lead on delivering the consequence of mistake. No, Obama has not "dealt with that"; he's made a speech about dealing with that, and that is all. 20 years of benign teachings do not earn anyone a free pass on preaching hatred. At the end of Obama's speech, that's where he leaves the Wright mess: Wright was wrong but because he has all these good works behind him we will just play it off as a "kindly uncle talking crazy."

MusicalBoredom -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:15:01 AM)
I think being responsible for making good decisions about who I am around socially and who I hire professionally are two completely different things. In the work place I do the best I can to build a solid team. I am responsible for the outcome of the team but not the individual actions of that team. If one of them makes a mistake I have to make sure it's corrected. If need be, I replace the team member. I am not, however, responsible for that team member's actions if he/she ends being arrested for something. The Senator's case is not even about his "team", it's about his social relationships. He is in no way responsible for that person's actions. He did however express absolute disagreement in regards to the pastor's remarks. He does not owe us, the world or even the pastor some kind apology or denouncement of his "friend". I dated this girl once. She was cute, educated, fun and articulate. One about our 10th or so date we were at a restaurant, she busted out in the most racially hateful tirade towards the server. The language just made me stare at her in disbelief as I didn't think anyone even had those thoughts anymore much lest expressed them in a manner that suggested that she thought she was right. The only thing I told her was that I thought that sort of talk was offensive to me and asked her to stop. I didn't tell her she was wrong or what she should think. I didn't try to change her in any way or tell all of our mutual friends that she was a huge racist. I did stop talking to her all together. She wasn't the kind of person I liked to associate with. Trying to make her look bad to others so that they think better of me is a grade school game that I'm not really interested in playing. I can make decisions about my life without announcing to the public. D

RottenJohnny -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:20:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Apparently the Democratic side of the election campaign is hoping to build a coalition of 'victims'. They want to create a majority who see themselves incapable of managing their own life. They want people who want to blame someone for their lack of advancement, lack of vision, lack of planning. They would never subscribe to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your county." Instead they want all these victims to beg for the government to 'save them'. I don't see myself as a victim and if I ever did, the government would be the last source of 'help' I'd seek. My statement concerning Senator Clinton notwithstanding, it makes it a difficult party to support. Ahhh. The soothing voice of reason. I couldn't agree more. Being that I'm from Michigan, I can't see how anyone could support any candidate from a political party that snubs it's nose at an entire state simply because we moved our primary elections ahead of others. All we wanted was to be heard for the destruction our economy is suffering. For our efforts, we got "punished" and our delegates nullified. They tell us how much they want to change things for our benefit then pull the rug out from under us? As far as I'm concerned, this kind of bullshit should convince anyone that the Dems aren't worth voting for this time around.

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:22:04 AM)
quote: Then I will assume your insistance on responsibility for others' words will include John McCain, as he has welcomed the endorsement of Pastor John Hagee? It does indeed. Hagee's comments are every bit as loathesome as Wright's. And yes, McCain should not have accepted his endorsement, and should reject it even now. My greater indignation in the Wright mess stems from the fact that Wright is Obama's pastor--Obama himself acknowledges Wright as his spiritual teacher and guide. I do not see any similar reciprocal validation of Hagee from McCain. If Obama believes in his heart that Wright's teachings are the proper ones for his household to receive, then by all means he should receive those teachings. In receiving those teachings, however, Obama receives also my opposition to him ever serving this nation as President. If you show me that McCain receives Hagee as a spiritual teacher and guide, then I will happily argue that he also should not serve as President. Given that McCain has not received Hagee thus, I refrain from arguing against him thus.

philosophy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:22:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Think of it like this......your boys, against your order, embarass you.......you them have to stand up and deal with that. Surely thats exactly what Obama has done with this speech. Except Wright has not repudiated his words--not to my knowledge at any rate. If Wright stands by his preaching, and Obama stands by Wright, of what value is Obama's "rejection" of the preaching? Obama takes the stance of rejecting Wright's sermons but then seeks to shield Wright from consequence. Being accountable in this context includes taking the lead on delivering the consequence of mistake. No, Obama has not "dealt with that"; he's made a speech about dealing with that, and that is all. 20 years of benign teachings do not earn anyone a free pass on preaching hatred. At the end of Obama's speech, that's where he leaves the Wright mess: Wright was wrong but because he has all these good works behind him we will just play it off as a "kindly uncle talking crazy." ..ok, fair enough. Now given the assumption that it becomes an Obama/McCain race, do you equally condemn McCain's refusal to distance himself from his religious advisors, as described by others in this thread? If not, then i'm afraid i can't take what appears to be a principled stand on your part seriously. If you do, then how can we compare the two probable candidates responses to their religious embarassments? One tries to address it (for a given value of address), the other just ducks. (edited to take into account a cross post) ACK...cross post. Thank you for answering my query before it was posted....lol

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:23:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Think of it like this......your boys, against your order, embarass you.......you them have to stand up and deal with that. Surely thats exactly what Obama has done with this speech. Except Wright has not repudiated his words--not to my knowledge at any rate. If Wright stands by his preaching, and Obama stands by Wright, of what value is Obama's "rejection" of the preaching? Obama takes the stance of rejecting Wright's sermons but then seeks to shield Wright from consequence. Being accountable in this context includes taking the lead on delivering the consequence of mistake. No, Obama has not "dealt with that"; he's made a speech about dealing with that, and that is all. 20 years of benign teachings do not earn anyone a free pass on preaching hatred. At the end of Obama's speech, that's where he leaves the Wright mess: Wright was wrong but because he has all these good works behind him we will just play it off as a "kindly uncle talking crazy." I think it's too important to paraphrase: Obama: quote: On the other end, we've heard my former pastor, Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation and that rightly offend white and black alike. I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy, and in some cases, pain. For some, nagging questions remain: Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in the church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely, just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests or rabbis with which you strongly disagree. I can't imagine hearing this from one of your parishioners--one you have married, babtized babies, shared meals and conversations--can be pleasant. What other consequence should Obama deliver to him?

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:28:08 AM)
quote: It does indeed. Hagee's comments are every bit as loathesome as Wright's. And yes, McCain should not have accepted his endorsement, and should reject it even now. Another important distinction between the two: McCain has not denounced the words of Pastor Hagee. Obama has repudiated and denounced the quotes from Pastor Wright over and over, to the extent of having to deliver an entire speech on the subject today. [Edited for quotes.]

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:30:40 AM)
quote: The Senator's case is not even about his "team", it's about his social relationships. He is in no way responsible for that person's actions. He did however express absolute disagreement in regards to the pastor's remarks. He does not owe us, the world or even the pastor some kind apology or denouncement of his "friend". If the Senator were a private man living a private life, I would be the very first to agree with you. The Senator is not a private man, nor is he leading a private life. He is seeking to be my President. He chooses to live very much in the public's eye, and thus his friends and social relationships are similarly placed in the public's eye. So yes, the Senator does owe the public a denouncement of Wright--if he wants to be my President. A man who claims a racist for a spiritual teacher is not a man I want as President.

DomKen -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:31:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Then I will assume your insistance on responsibility for others' words will include John McCain, as he has welcomed the endorsement of Pastor John Hagee? It does indeed. Hagee's comments are every bit as loathesome as Wright's. And yes, McCain should not have accepted his endorsement, and should reject it even now. My greater indignation in the Wright mess stems from the fact that Wright is Obama's pastor--Obama himself acknowledges Wright as his spiritual teacher and guide. I do not see any similar reciprocal validation of Hagee from McCain. What about Parsley then? On Feb. 26 when McCain received Parsley's endorsement in front of a rally he did call Parsley his spiritual advisor.

celticlord2112 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:35:52 AM)
quote: What other consequence should Obama deliver to him? Obama should tell him "I withdraw my family from your church. You and yours will not guide me and mine any more." The public has vilified many public figures for membership in all-white and all-male clubs, to the extent of requiring them to withdraw from such organizations. Expecting Obama to withdraw from this apparently racist and divisive church is no different.

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:35:54 AM)
quote: Now given the assumption that it becomes an Obama/McCain race, do you equally condemn McCain's refusal to distance himself from his religious advisors, as described by others in this thread? If not, then i'm afraid i can't take what appears to be a principled stand on your part seriously. If you do, then how can we compare the two probable candidates responses to their religious embarassments? One tries to address it (for a given value of address), the other just ducks. philo, Qualify this that I've vote for Reverend Wright before voting for Senator McCain. That said... The comparison is not on equal terms. Getting an endorsement from national figureheads of Churches is very different than a 20 year membership and a $20k/year contribution to a local parish. It's difficult for me to put those two situations on equal grounds. It would seem that anyone trying to would rather avoid Senator Obama relationship with the, self described "Afro-Centric Church" in general and the personal relationship with Reverend Wright in particular. However, if it is discovered that Senator McCain participated at the same level in a White Centric church who preaches a philosophy of ongoing White Race victimization by Blacks - I'll stand corrected.

luckydog1 -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:37:36 AM)
subtee, there is no consequence for Obama to deliver to Wright....Wright is free to say and do his thing as he feels is right. The relveant part of this is that Obama only is backing away now that it is a political issue and a national spotlight. This speaks to Obama's character. When Candidates run for office they do things to try to win. Mc Cain did not even attend the Values Voters Debates. He has never courted the Religous Right, and they overwhelmingly wanted Huckabee to be the nominee. Both Hagee and Mc Cain are doing a make nice for the election, because neither wants the Democrats to win. Lets go over several of the Differences in the Comparison between Obama/wright and Mc Cain /Hagee. Again, becuse people seem to be missing it. Obama, has given money to Wright, at least one 5 figure donation. Mc Cain has never given a penny to Hagee. Obama attended Wrights Church for 20 years. Mc Cain never attended Hagee's. Obama called Wright his "Personal Spiritual Advisor" Mc Cain has never done anything even close to that with Hagee. Obama used Wrights support to build his political career to get where he is now, and is jetisoning him to win votes. Mc Cain never has courted the Religous Right, and is now trying to get any vote he can anywhere.

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:39:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth philo, Qualify this that I've vote for Reverend Wright before voting for Senator McCain. That said... The comparison is not on equal terms. Getting an endorsement from national figureheads of Churches is very different than a 20 year membership and a $20k/year contribution to a local parish. It's difficult for me to put those two situations on equal grounds. It would seem that anyone trying to would rather avoid Senator Obama relationship with the, self described "Afro-Centric Church" in general and the personal relationship with Reverend Wright in particular. However, if it is discovered that Senator McCain participated at the same level in a White Centric church who preaches a philosophy of ongoing White Race victimization by Blacks - I'll stand corrected. [Emphasis added] Does it necessarily have to be antithetical offensiveness, or will other offensiveness convince you?

pahunkboy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:39:56 AM)
if religion and the church know so much- why do we have an Iraq occupation? the church has been deafenly silent on this from day 1. now- we examine such preachers as tho they are the chosen one. but who challenged any that thru silence condonned the grab for oil? chritianity is blistfully ignorant right now over the USs treatment of [pick a word] so NOW we are concerned with what preacher said what? [while 5 years our army is shooting up foreingers?] dissent is good and healthy.

Mercnbeth -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:48:15 AM)
quote: Does it necessarily have to be antithetical offensiveness, or will other offensiveness convince you? Convince me of what, the relative shades of racism? No I prefer the consistent approach and identify it, and those who decide to support it with funds and membership, for what it is. Unlike Senator Obama, if I discovered a 20 year "close friend" or even "uncle" was a member of the KKK or shared similar beliefs, I wouldn't think that a statement the equivalent of; "He's very nice when he's not wearing his white sheet and hood." would suffice as an explanation.

domiguy -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:50:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Does it necessarily have to be antithetical offensiveness, or will other offensiveness convince you? Convince me of what, the relative shades of racism? No I prefer the consistent approach and identify it, and those who decide to support it with funds and membership, for what it is. Unlike Senator Obama, if I discovered a 20 year "close friend" or even "uncle" was a member of the KKK or shared similar beliefs, I wouldn't think that a statement the equivalent of; "He's very nice when he's not wearing his white sheet and hood." would suffice as an explanation. Far cry from my KKK relative and what rev Wright had to say. In all actuality he's not that far off the mark with the majority of his statements.

DomKen -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:53:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Obama should tell him "I withdraw my family from your church. You and yours will not guide me and mine any more." Are you unaware that Wright is no longer the pastor at Trinity?

subtee -> RE: A man's voice should be his own. (3/18/2008 11:57:11 AM)
Well, but, for example the suggestion that Hurricane Katrina was a judgement visited on New Orleans by God for the sins of its residents. That's pretty offensive, no? Many consider that to be thinly-veiled racism as well...

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