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RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 2:41:09 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

How many of you would be here if this kind of shit were going on 120 years ago?
Irish, you would have been turned back.
Italian, you would have been turned back.
So may of you would have been turned back because of your family's origins.

This crap has been going on for over a century. Our country GROWS on immegration.



Gemini, this is about illegal aliens not *legal immigrants.*

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Gemini1766)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 2:41:44 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		You think there is a difference?

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"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

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Profile   Post #: 302
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 2:43:27 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gemini, this is about illegal aliens not *legal immigrants.*



Smith, take note  .

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 303
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 2:44:19 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith11

I don't know about you, but my great grandparents came through Ellis island like the rest....LEGALLY.

Part of my ancestry was here before any white man or woman ever stepped foot here.

And I'm sorry, but the colonials NEVER came through Ellis Island, nor did any other immigrents prior to around 1892.
http://www.nps.gov/elis/


_____________________________

"Strangers do not owe strangers anything, beyond an obeisance to the laws mutual conduct as dictated by the land in which they live. Anything else is negotiable." puella

"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 2:48:46 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

Part of my ancestry was here before any white man or woman ever stepped foot here.

And I'm sorry, but the colonials NEVER came through Ellis Island, nor did any other immigrents prior to around 1892.
http://www.nps.gov/elis/



No, but we took the country from the ones here. Like Eddie Izzard said "if you don't have a flag, it doesn't count." We had our own flag, what can I say.

It's funny you said "part" of your ancestry. So you hate half and not the other half?

Allow me, once again, to repost from page 2 of this thread my thoughts on the 'native american' argument in discussions like this:

"This is an increasingly ridiculous argument to use in this debate. We (european settlers) came here, we fought with the natives, we made deals with the natives, we fucked over some of them (manhattan for a handful of beads........"how"). Regardless, of how we obtained it, we took ownership of this country. We didn't "sneak in" and try and assimilate into native american society, we brought our own. Right or wrong, that's what happened. We didn't sneak in here and live on the native american govenerment's dime while demanding we had a right to be here because we snuck in. We came in and took it, bought it, stole it, whatever. The "maybe you should go home unless you're native american" argument is ridiculous. This is our country. The settlers may have gotten it in a fucked up manner.....go complain to them. I had nothing to do with it. My ancestors came over in the 30's (I think) and came through Ellis island like the rest, with papers. My great-grand parents were full-blooded german and came here and made lives for their familes, many of whom enlisted in the US military and fought against their parents' former countrymen."

< Message edited by Smith117 -- 3/30/2008 2:53:43 PM >

(in reply to Gemini1766)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:04:59 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

popeye, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to hold your feet to the fire on this. Given your previous statement that " enforcing  our laws is not an option", is it ok, from your point of view, for U.S. citizens to break U.S. laws ( as in the sex laws I mentioned) but not ok for non-citizens  to disregard laws that don't suit them? Please just answer the question, sir.

As far as EPGAH's comment about breaking sex laws and illegal immigration laws being "different"( citing tax payer issues, blah, blah, etc.) is concerned, the same question applies. Is it ok or not for some people to break U.S. laws when those laws don't suit them? Or does the law and order attitude apply only to illegal aliens and others whose views we may not share ?

Simple question, no ?



There's a huge difference in illegal sex laws vs. immigration. Illegal sex laws have already been ruled unconstitutional. Therefore, the point is moot. Even if they hadn't. It is up to the state to prove such sex even occurs, as most sex occurs behind closed doors.

Furthermore, even if so called "illegal sex" is a crime, it is a victimless crime, meaning two consenting adults in their own home may do as they wish. Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. It strains the economy everyday and moreso each day.



How they "got here" is totally irrelevant. I don't care if their parents smuggled them in or they payed a smuggler, I just don't want them here.
I don't care if Santa Claus brought them in.

I don't know about anyone else on this board but I don't go through life assuming other people's problems.
This is a case of the country of Mexico and it's people mostly as well as other countries trying to turn (their) problems into (our) problem and I'm just not buying into it.


You didn't address or answer the question I posed to you, popeye. So why bother quoting the question you are dodging in my post ? Apparently you only see what you wanna see and hear what you wanna hear.


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:05:45 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		I don't dislike any part of My ancestry. They all are part of my family history, good and bad. I take it all as a positive over all, since it lead to Me. To My existance.

And I didn't make any argument about Native Americans. So back up and try again. I said part of My ancestors were here first, nothing more, nothing less.

Flags are only as meaningful as you wish them to be.
Wanna burn the US Flag, go for it, it's not against the Constitution to do so. Hell, most of you don't realize that it was primarily a BATTLE FLAG to which soldiers rallied, even during the Civil War.
And before you get riled up over my statment about going ahead and burning it, I served and did my time to help carry on the tradition in My family to continue to protect the rights we are all assured in the Constitution.

All this "illegal imigrant" bile just makes me think of those groups who think they are better than others for the color of their skin. You know, Nazi's, Neo Nazi's, KKK, Aryan Nation, etc.


_____________________________

"Strangers do not owe strangers anything, beyond an obeisance to the laws mutual conduct as dictated by the land in which they live. Anything else is negotiable." puella

"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:13:52 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

I take your point and am not arguing it at all. However, along these lines, I remember a chat I once had with my father regarding my "nationality". I was born in Germany from Lithuanian parents and came to this country at the age of 2 with my parents and sister where we all, eventually became "naturalized" U.S. citizens. So, I asked my pops, "what nationality am I? American, German or Lithuanian"? His response was to ask me "if a calf is born in a chicken coop, does that make it a chicken"?



That's an interesting counter-point to the citizen vs. non-citizen arguement. I wonder what some of those illegals would say to that.



Yes, and if you go down that path, Smith, that would make YOU whatever your ancestry is,  regardless of where you were born, wouldn' it ?


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:18:01 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

And I didn't make any argument about Native Americans. So back up and try again. I said part of My ancestors were here first, nothing more, nothing less.


No, but you did seem to delight in pointing out those who were here "first" so I delighted in pointing out that those folks lost their land one way or the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

All this "illegal imigrant" bile just makes me think of those groups who think they are better than others for the color of their skin. You know, Nazi's, Neo Nazi's, KKK, Aryan Nation, etc.



Really? It makes me think of a country trying to protect its already strained resources. I've heard dozens of statistics and they all add up to this place being in a lot of trouble in 50 years or less. 11 million illegals already here, 3 million coming in per year. Those illegals multiplying a rabbit's pace because of their archaic refusal to use birth control or *gasp* close their legs.

"Eventus stultorum magister"

(in reply to Gemini1766)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:20:46 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Popeye ... I completely respect your right to feel how you feel about this issue ... but would like to point out that in the probably three dozen topical threads on this board, you have always dodged the two biggest question:
 
1. How would we accomplish a task that would make D-Day look like a day at the beach?
 
2. How would you address the almost certain fact that removal of all illegal workers in America, would be an economic disaster for many parts of the country?
 
Until you come up with realistic and meaningful answers to those two questions, you are just another guy screaming about the law.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 310
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:27:53 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

popeye, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to hold your feet to the fire on this. Given your previous statement that " enforcing  our laws is not an option", is it ok, from your point of view, for U.S. citizens to break U.S. laws ( as in the sex laws I mentioned) but not ok for non-citizens  to disregard laws that don't suit them? Please just answer the question, sir.

As far as EPGAH's comment about breaking sex laws and illegal immigration laws being "different"( citing tax payer issues, blah, blah, etc.) is concerned, the same question applies. Is it ok or not for some people to break U.S. laws when those laws don't suit them? Or does the law and order attitude apply only to illegal aliens and others whose views we may not share ?

Simple question, no ?



There's a huge difference in illegal sex laws vs. immigration. Illegal sex laws have already been ruled unconstitutional. Therefore, the point is moot. Even if they hadn't. It is up to the state to prove such sex even occurs, as most sex occurs behind closed doors.

Furthermore, even if so called "illegal sex" is a crime, it is a victimless crime, meaning two consenting adults in their own home may do as they wish. Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. It strains the economy everyday and moreso each day.



Ok, Smith , you are correct that the Supreme court overturned the prohibitions in a Texas case in 2003 thereby nullifying those laws in all the rest of the states. However, if you committed sodomy ( remember this refers to oral sex too ) before 2003 (and you seem to be a bright guy with some knowledge of the law, so, I assume you were aware of the laws you may have chosen to ignore, not that ignorance of the law is a defense in any court), wouldn't that make you a law breaker and a felon prior to 2003 ? And the "behind closed doors argument doesn't wash . Do you think crimes of most kinds are NOT committed "behind closed doors" ?

Finally, regarding illegal immigration and it's effect on our economy. Which do you think would strain the economy more, sir ? The cost of current social services , or the collapse of U.S. agriculture, meat processing and packing, hotels and restaurants and construction of various kinds , from building to road construction and repair, to digging ditches for sewer contruction, etc. ?




_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 3:28:07 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		Fact: the majority of work that "illegal immigrants" do are jobs that most American's refuse to do as being below them. You go out into the fields and harvest the fruits and vegitables that they do. It's back breaking work. You go clean houses for what they do, and happily so because for them it is a means to a really REALLY nice life back home in their home counties when they leave and retire.

Strained Resources? We do not have strained resources. We have the most bountiful country on earth.
Want to talk about something that is strained, look at government spending, Social Security, work ethics and how they affect us. There are so many other things that are much more problematic than "illegal immigrants" in our country.

I guess we are no longer the land where the inscription on the Statue of Liberty has meaning. You know the one...
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

_____________________________

"Strangers do not owe strangers anything, beyond an obeisance to the laws mutual conduct as dictated by the land in which they live. Anything else is negotiable." puella

"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 4:30:59 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

popeye, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to hold your feet to the fire on this. Given your previous statement that " enforcing  our laws is not an option", is it ok, from your point of view, for U.S. citizens to break U.S. laws ( as in the sex laws I mentioned) but not ok for non-citizens  to disregard laws that don't suit them? Please just answer the question, sir.

As far as EPGAH's comment about breaking sex laws and illegal immigration laws being "different"( citing tax payer issues, blah, blah, etc.) is concerned, the same question applies. Is it ok or not for some people to break U.S. laws when those laws don't suit them? Or does the law and order attitude apply only to illegal aliens and others whose views we may not share ?

Simple question, no ?



There's a huge difference in illegal sex laws vs. immigration. Illegal sex laws have already been ruled unconstitutional. Therefore, the point is moot. Even if they hadn't. It is up to the state to prove such sex even occurs, as most sex occurs behind closed doors.

Furthermore, even if so called "illegal sex" is a crime, it is a victimless crime, meaning two consenting adults in their own home may do as they wish. Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. It strains the economy everyday and moreso each day.



How they "got here" is totally irrelevant. I don't care if their parents smuggled them in or they payed a smuggler, I just don't want them here.
I don't care if Santa Claus brought them in.

I don't know about anyone else on this board but I don't go through life assuming other people's problems.
This is a case of the country of Mexico and it's people mostly as well as other countries trying to turn (their) problems into (our) problem and I'm just not buying into it.


You didn't address or answer the question I posed to you, popeye. So why bother quoting the question you are dodging in my post ? Apparently you only see what you wanna see and hear what you wanna hear.



Cjan, because you're trying to compare apples and oranges.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 4:40:17 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

Fact: the majority of work that "illegal immigrants" do are jobs that most American's refuse to do as being below them. You go out into the fields and harvest the fruits and vegitables that they do. It's back breaking work. You go clean houses for what they do, and happily so because for them it is a means to a really REALLY nice life back home in their home counties when they leave and retire.

Strained Resources? We do not have strained resources. We have the most bountiful country on earth.
Want to talk about something that is strained, look at government spending, Social Security, work ethics and how they affect us. There are so many other things that are much more problematic than "illegal immigrants" in our country.

I guess we are no longer the land where the inscription on the Statue of Liberty has meaning. You know the one...
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!


Gemini, we still are, just not for illegal aliens.
And by the way the statue of liberty is called "Lady Liberty" not lady immigration.
And there's no job that is "below" Americans if it pays a living wage.

Do you think a poem should be converted into official public policy? (lol)

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/30/2008 5:03:24 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Gemini1766)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 4:59:56 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline 		Yay! Law talk! I love this!

Alright *cracks knuckles*

I'll just answer your points in order? Sound good? Grand!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Ok, Smith , you are correct that the Supreme court overturned the prohibitions in a Texas case in 2003 thereby nullifying those laws in all the rest of the states. However, if you committed sodomy ( remember this refers to oral sex too ) before 2003 (and you seem to be a bright guy with some knowledge of the law, so, I assume you were aware of the laws you may have chosen to ignore, not that ignorance of the law is a defense in any court), wouldn't that make you a law breaker and a felon prior to 2003 ? And the "behind closed doors argument doesn't wash . Do you think crimes of most kinds are NOT committed "behind closed doors" ?


Actually, you're incorrect. In the eyes of the law, you are not a felon until you are charged, given your due process and found guilty by a jury of your peers. The fact that the laws were, largely, changed in 2003 is not significant as that is just the first time said law was attempted to be enforced. Prior to that, I'm assuming, no one was "caught." The moment they were "caught in the act" so to speak and literally, they were charged. The moment they were charged, it highlighted the ridiculous nature of the law and it was fought against, defeated and those getting a blowjob were then secure in the knowledge they could pop one in someone's pooper without fear.

I know you know of the site online that talks about all the ridiculous laws still on the books. There are hundreds. Most are simply ignored, not just by law enforcement officials, but by everyone because everyone understand they are ridiculous and, due to their ridiculous nature, no one wants to actually spend taxpayer money to re-write them, until they become an issue as the sodomy law did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan
Finally, regarding illegal immigration and it's effect on our economy. Which do you think would strain the economy more, sir ? The cost of current social services , or the collapse of U.S. agriculture, meat processing and packing, hotels and restaurants and construction of various kinds , from building to road construction and repair, to digging ditches for sewer contruction, etc. ?


This question here is ridiculous in its very nature. You're asking which would hurt more, paying a little more for fruit or having our hospitals go bankrupt as well as the other  services that are having financial trouble due to paying out much more than they're taking in?

Ummm, look around. The cost of  EVERYTHING is going up.  And your argument is that having illegals here is good because the cost doesn't go up that high that fast? So then I assume you advocate having, essentially, a peasant class in our society that can work for slave wages, barely surviving while undercutting those who would demand a higher, more livable wage to do the same jobs?

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 5:09:20 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Wasn't it Shakespeare who said ( to paraphrase )"the first thing let's do, let's kill all the lawyers".

You can try to fog the issue with all that crap, if you want. Good luck.

Finally ,and I DO mean finally, what really disgusts me is bigotry and prejudice masquerading as patriotism.

I'm out of this circle jerk. Adios, amigos. Happy trails.


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 5:09:21 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

Fact: the majority of work that "illegal immigrants" do are jobs that most American's refuse to do as being below them. You go out into the fields and harvest the fruits and vegitables that they do. It's back breaking work. You go clean houses for what they do, and happily so because for them it is a means to a really REALLY nice life back home in their home counties when they leave and retire.


WRONG!!!!

Dead wrong I'm afraid. They do jobs that Americans won't do for 70 cents a day, or whatever they get paid. There is a minimum wage law in this country and those who pay illegal works pay them far below that amount, hence how they lower their bottom line costs and why that's illegal in the first place.

Also, cleaning people get paid pretty well, depending on where you go. If you're near the border, where they get away with hiring illegals, the cleaning people get paid crappy. I talked with a friend in the northern states once, however, who told me that while talking to someone who worked as a cleaner, they made (up there at least) upwards of $12 or $13 an hour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766
Strained Resources? We do not have strained resources. We have the most bountiful country on earth.
Want to talk about something that is strained, look at government spending, Social Security, work ethics and how they affect us. There are so many other things that are much more problematic than "illegal immigrants" in our country.


How do you get this misinformed? Do a little research about the hospitals in bordertowns. You'd better do your research soon though, or you won't have anything to research. Several are having to close their doors because by law, they have to provide care even if a person can't afford it, they aren't allowed to check status, and the government isn't re-imbursing them for their costs when treating illegals. Ever walked into an ER and seen rows and rows of people there, most, if not all speaking spanish? I have.

By resources, I meant money, not natural resources. Although the natural resources are getting strained as well. Trees.....let's look at trees and wooded areas. with 11 milllion illegals already here and 3 million coming in every year.....where are we going to put them? Oh sure, let's just knock down a few more forests. But oopps.....now we have no trees. Then what?

Oh and please, don't come at me with what some inscription on a statue says. It doesn't say on that statue to ignore our laws and do as you like, either. They can come in all they like, if they do so LEGALLY and pay their taxes just like I do. If not.....home's about 600 miles south of here. I can provide a map if needed.

< Message edited by Smith117 -- 3/30/2008 5:11:20 PM >

(in reply to Gemini1766)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 5:12:26 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Wasn't it Shakespeare who said ( to paraphrase )"the first thing let's do, let's kill all the lawyers".

You can try to fog the issue with all that crap, if you want. Good luck.

Finally ,and I DO mean finally, what really disgusts me is bigotry and prejudice masquerading as patriotism.

I'm out of this circle jerk. Adios, amigos. Happy trails.



Spoken like someone with truly no leg to stand on. "You don't like lawbreakers.....you're a RACIST!!!!!!'

Funny.....LOTS of nationalities come in illegally. Which one am I bigoted towards?

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 7:00:41 PM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117
I'm out of this circle jerk. Adios, amigos. Happy trails.


and you said you didnt like them ;)



_____________________________

Zeedaddys
~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 7:28:14 PM   
Gemini1766


Posts: 991
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		Smith, the US of A does not lack in resources, they are out there. Do not confuse resources with the availability of services. They are entirely different things.

As for the price paid to those workers, they're willing to take that pay, for them it is a blessing, and riches. And even if offered to most American's at minimum wage they wouldn't do it. And you're not going to see farm work pay much more than minimum wage, the overhead is too much to begin with.  Try again.

I'm with Cjan, I'm tired of the bigotry here. This is not a nation of Aryans. We are no better than any other country, we're different and live by different standards.
Thank God that bigots do not rule the US. Oh, and you'll be happy to know that the fastest growing portion of our population is the hispanic one. What will you do when their voice is as loud and meaningful as yours and they influence our politics?

Ciao. I'm done here.


_____________________________

"Strangers do not owe strangers anything, beyond an obeisance to the laws mutual conduct as dictated by the land in which they live. Anything else is negotiable." puella

"TwistedKinkerBell's online male companion of a nearly intimate nature."

(in reply to domahpet)
Profile   Post #: 320
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