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RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 8:36:13 PM

Posts: 7803
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

The law is a tool used to ensure justice in a society. I agree with you that there is a great deal of information about this case that has been omitted and by the way, I was not 'going after' you, you mentioned speeding and I rightfully asked if you brought this fact to the authorities' attention, which was a valid comment given the comments regarding why it was this woman had not tried to rectify her status until now.

The two examples was just one to show that criminal is not necessarily an awful term. You are the one that wanted to go further. Justice is subjective, and that is why we have the judicial system we have.

quote:

The reason children are mentioned in this thread is b/c they are the crux of this story, Wolf, not a 'derailment'. My comment about branding was not one of seriousness, for goodness sake, it was in response to them being considered 'criminals' given that their mother had them in a country while there supposedly illegally. People are attempting to debate WHY it is the mother is classified as a non-national given that she has spent her entire life, bar five years of it, in the US which, I'm sure others will agree, makes absolutely no sense.

And if you were paying attention, I have said that this case is a good reason why the laws need to be revised and the borders secured. Why should children have a bearing on whether the law is applied or not? Whether it makes sense or not, that is how it is apparently, and there are many ways it could have been avoided. Should the Mother be relieved of her personal responsibilities? I believe that is some of the problems today, people wanting to blame others for things that are their responsibility.

I would be willing to bet there is a lot more to this story, because there have been worse cases where the single parent was not deported.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 8:41:57 PM

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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"
On June 26, 2003, the US Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision struck down the Texas same-sex sodomy law, ruling that this private sexual conduct is protected by the liberty rights implicit in the due process clause of the United States Constitution. (See Lawrence v. Texas.) This decision invalidated all state sodomy laws insofar as they applied to noncommercial conduct in private between consenting civilian adults, and overruled an earlier ruling from 1986 in which Georgia's sodomy law had been upheld. (Bowers v. Hardwick.)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

popeye, you live in New Hampshire so your laws may be different up there. But, as I said in an earlier post, "sodomy" which is defined as either anal or oral sex is still illegal in many, if not most states, but neverthe less, practiced by many people

quote:

popeye:

Enforcing our laws is not "optional".

By your standard, without cherry picking, should those folks be prosecuted and face the resultant penalties ?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to cjan)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 9:00:48 PM

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Popeye ... I completely respect your right to feel how you feel about this issue ... but would like to point out that in the probably three dozen topical threads on this board, you have always dodged the two biggest question:

1. How would we accomplish a task that would make D-Day look like a day at the beach?

2. How would you address the almost certain fact that removal of all illegal workers in America, would be an economic disaster for many parts of the country?

Until you come up with realistic and meaningful answers to those two questions, you are just another guy screaming about the law.

Oh come on Caitlyn, that's an easy one, just raise the minimum wage law to $20 per hour. They'll have all the help they need!
And start putting the greedy scum that hire illegal aliens in prison.
The punishment for that has to be swift and certain.
And of course get out of all those rotten corrupt "trade" deals.
No work means no tacos so most will go home on their own when they get hungry enough.
In capitalism if you can't get help you raise the pay and benefits until you can, you don't hire people who snuck into our country illegally and will work for slave wages.

If you factor in "real" inflation over the last 30 years , not the way our govt. calculates it, the minimum wage should probably be closer to $30 per hour instead of $20.
According to the govt's calculations no one uses gasoline, heating oil or eats food!
I think they count candles and shoe laces in "their" figures.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/30/2008 9:13:34 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 9:54:32 PM

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Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117
I'm out of this circle jerk. Adios, amigos. Happy trails.

and you said you didnt like them ;)

I didn't say that line. That was someone else.

(in reply to domahpet)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 9:56:00 PM

Posts: 1447
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

Smith, the US of A does not lack in resources, they are out there. Do not confuse resources with the availability of services. They are entirely different things.

As for the price paid to those workers, they're willing to take that pay, for them it is a blessing, and riches. And even if offered to most American's at minimum wage they wouldn't do it. And you're not going to see farm work pay much more than minimum wage, the overhead is too much to begin with. Try again.

I'm with Cjan, I'm tired of the bigotry here. This is not a nation of Aryans. We are no better than any other country, we're different and live by different standards.
Thank God that bigots do not rule the US. Oh, and you'll be happy to know that the fastest growing portion of our population is the hispanic one. What will you do when their voice is as loud and meaningful as yours and they influence our politics?

Ciao. I'm done here.

Call enforcement of LAWS bigotry all you like. I don't care what color a person is or where they are from. If they want to be here, they need to be here LEGALLY or I don't care one iota what happens to them when they're caught.

(in reply to Gemini1766)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 11:23:36 PM

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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Actually, if you did some research you'll find that they are RIGHT. The UK has minimum wage enforced, farmers cannot find UK born citizens to pick the fields, taking them off the social security cycle and earning in excess of 20k per annum. Who will do these jobs? The immigrants, that's who, the Eastern Europeans that many brits complain about. The fact remains that these people aren't afraid of hard work, unlike their typical british cousins who have gotten used to a life of 'not having to'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117
WRONG!!!!

Dead wrong I'm afraid. They do jobs that Americans won't do for 70 cents a day, or whatever they get paid. There is a minimum wage law in this country and those who pay illegal works pay them far below that amount, hence how they lower their bottom line costs and why that's illegal in the first place.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to Smith117)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/30/2008 11:54:50 PM

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Wasn't it Shakespeare who said ( to paraphrase )"the first thing let's do, let's kill all the lawyers".

You can try to fog the issue with all that crap, if you want. Good luck.

Finally ,and I DO mean finally, what really disgusts me is bigotry and prejudice masquerading as patriotism.

I'm out of this circle jerk. Adios, amigos. Happy trails.

Ah,....here it comes just like clockwork, just like the 9:04 to palookaville.
Right on time.
You disagree with these PC people's opinions and you're an, A. "Racist", B "Bigot", "C. "Predjudiced." D. fill in the blank.
Never fails! Real "open minded" people, as long as you *agree* with them!
These are the type of people who'd vote for Joe McCarthy if he were alive and running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiRPcB3F9Xs

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to cjan)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 1:19:50 AM

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Popeye ... I completely respect your right to feel how you feel about this issue ... but would like to point out that in the probably three dozen topical threads on this board, you have always dodged the two biggest question:

1. How would we accomplish a task that would make D-Day look like a day at the beach?

2. How would you address the almost certain fact that removal of all illegal workers in America, would be an economic disaster for many parts of the country?

Until you come up with realistic and meaningful answers to those two questions, you are just another guy screaming about the law.

Oh come on Caitlyn, that's an easy one, just raise the minimum wage law to $20 per hour. They'll have all the help they need!
And start putting the greedy scum that hire illegal aliens in prison.
The punishment for that has to be swift and certain.
And of course get out of all those rotten corrupt "trade" deals.
No work means no tacos so most will go home on their own when they get hungry enough.
In capitalism if you can't get help you raise the pay and benefits until you can, you don't hire people who snuck into our country illegally and will work for slave wages.

If you factor in "real" inflation over the last 30 years , not the way our govt. calculates it, the minimum wage should probably be closer to $30 per hour instead of $20.
According to the govt's calculations no one uses gasoline, heating oil or eats food!
I think they count candles and shoe laces in "their" figures.

popeye:
It always warms my heart when you say something that I agree with.
It reaffirms my faith in human nature.
You are spot on.
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 7:17:25 AM

Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117
I'm out of this circle jerk. Adios, amigos. Happy trails.

and you said you didnt like them ;)

I didn't say that line. That was someone else.

i know that! it was cjan

_____________________________

Zeedaddys
~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

(in reply to Smith117)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 7:19:01 AM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

There's so much profit to be made from illegal aliens' work, do you think the economy would manage to recover were we to loose the cheap fruits of their labour

?

_____________________________

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 10:43:45 AM

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Popeye ... I completely respect your right to feel how you feel about this issue ... but would like to point out that in the probably three dozen topical threads on this board, you have always dodged the two biggest question:

1. How would we accomplish a task that would make D-Day look like a day at the beach?

2. How would you address the almost certain fact that removal of all illegal workers in America, would be an economic disaster for many parts of the country?

Until you come up with realistic and meaningful answers to those two questions, you are just another guy screaming about the law.

...i'll take this one, oh and nice to see you Caitlyn.....hope all is well with you.

If an economy is so dependant on an illegal factor then that weakness will almost inevitably lead to a crash of some sort some day. The USA is a very very rich country. There is room for a little downsizing. Would it not be better for the crash to come about in a semi-controlled manner rather than due to external events beyond your control?
i'd suggest firstly prosecuting those a few of those who employ illegals on tax-evasion grounds. There must be some tax law they're breaking. Wait a season. Let the word get out. Next season prosecute a few more. Now, some economic pinches will occur.....and that is regrettable. However some employers will now be looking at ways to get out of the bind. Let their ingenuity find ways, i'm not a businessman so i can't predict them.....but some will succeed. They become the model for the rest. OK, cheap orange juice will prolly be a thing of the past, but the economy will by now start to be based on a realistic sense of costs rather than a distorted one. Also, those who are being employed legally will be feeding their earnings back into the economy and thus kickstarting other businesses.
So long as it is not done too fast and, oddly, done hard enough (read publically enough) i would think the damage would be minimised.

Please note that all i am suggesting is that the minimum wage and tax laws are ultimately enforced. i don't care if the illegals are irish, mexican or lithuanian. Once illegal immigrants are preventing citizens from finding work then a do-nothing policy must surely no longer be an option.

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 10:44:38 AM

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Popeye highlighted the agenda by many... there's nothing quite like transference! The BNP focused (British National Party) on Immigration to incite people and push their agenda. The BNP is a far right political party, it excludes anyone that is non-white and surfaced when the National Front, another notorious political party who were staunchly committed to reversing the tide of non-white immigration, were exposed as racially inciting violence towards non-whites. Sadly, it is claimed to be making a resurgance. But my point about transference is that often, when people step on the hotplate and provide others with insights into their political agendas, they tend to engage in damage limitation and force focus away from themselves.

What's interesting about their focus on immigration is that one argument frequently used is that those working illegally in the US somehow damage the economy. The amusing fact is that by providing such cheap labour, labour that is often, given in appalling conditions, with no medical treatment, meagre sustenance rations, is that these 'illegals' are supporting the economy, not destroying it. It'd be interesting to see how rapid the economy would plummet should their contributions ever stop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
There's so much profit to be made from illegal aliens' work, do you think the economy would manage to recover were we to loose the cheap fruits of their labour ?

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 10:46:56 AM

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That's interesting, Philo. Imagine if all the creditors suddenly called in their debts, it'd be akin to moving the earth off its axis

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The USA is a very very rich country. There is room for a little downsizing.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 10:50:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

That's interesting, Philo. Imagine if all the creditors suddenly called in their debts, it'd be akin to moving the earth off its axis

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The USA is a very very rich country. There is room for a little downsizing.

...that's why i suggest it be done in a controlled manner

. A little at a time. It certainly wont please everyone, and it's a longshot....but...it...just...might...work.......

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 10:56:45 AM

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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And being only 22nd on a list of the most prosperous nations, must come as quite a shocker lol

How are you doing these days, I'm glad you're over your recent scare.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 11:08:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

And being only 22nd on a list of the most prosperous nations, must come as quite a shocker lol

How are you doing these days, I'm glad you're over your recent scare.

Oh, i'm peachy now, but a week or so recovering from food poisoning takes it out of you.....

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 11:19:04 AM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

If an economy is so dependant on an illegal factor then that weakness will almost inevitably lead to a crash of some sort some day. The USA is a very very rich country. There is room for a little downsizing. Would it not be better for the crash to come about in a semi-controlled manner rather than due to external events beyond your control?

The lie, or as Senator Clinton would refer to it "misstatement" about the economy being dependent on illegal workers and the criminals who employ them is the biggest hurdle to solving the problem. But first, the problem itself can be solved without one new law going on the books. If the current laws were enforced upon employers across the board, and not just in isolated pockets as they are now; the criminals would be incarcerated and the illegal workers would leave. It would not take a 'Dunkirk' type effort. No jobs - no illegal workers; who would transport themselves back to their points of origin the same way they got here - on there own.

quote:

i'd suggest firstly prosecuting those a few of those who employ illegals on tax-evasion grounds. There must be some tax law they're breaking. Wait a season. Let the word get out. Next season prosecute a few more. Now, some economic pinches will occur.....and that is regrettable.

There you go! The solution is prosecuting them ALL while escalating the consequences to the companies and their management.

quote:

However some employers will now be looking at ways to get out of the bind. Let their ingenuity find ways, i'm not a businessman so i can't predict them.....but some will succeed. They become the model for the rest.

What bind? Underpaying employees? This will be the a boon for labor and a boon for companies to innovate and modernize. Across the board, this will lead to economic growth.

quote:

OK, cheap orange juice will prolly be a thing of the past, but the economy will by now start to be based on a realistic sense of costs rather than a distorted one.

Define cheap? I marvel at the availability and variety of produce in a standard US supermarket. There is no 'season', no or very few local farms; maybe there should be.

Cost will be proportionate to the increased wages being paid to the legal employees. Getting a orange or getting your grass cut will cost what it takes to get the job done. Grass still needs to be cut; companies still need a market. The price will be what the market will bear. Cost will go up, because wages will go up. But afford-ability or defining 'cheap' will change too.

quote:

So long as it is not done too fast and, oddly, done hard enough (read publically enough) i would think the damage would be minimised.

The idea that there should be concern for "damaging" criminal enterprises is amazing. When bootlegging was the only way alcohol was available on the streets of the US, was damage to the bootleggers a consideration when prohibition was repealed?

The most exploited people in this are the illegal workers. I can't imagine why people support ongoing exploitation in lieu of prosecuting the companies. There has been so much written on these boards about 'Evil Corporations'; yet when it comes to illegal workers the sentiment supporting points enabling these corporations to continue their exploiting ways.

It's similar to what's going on in the housing market. For years there has been an outcry for lower housing costs. Now the bubble has burst and prices are coming down; but people want to prop up the poorly run Banks and Financial Institutions. People have sheepishly believed the political rhetoric that the focus is on helping people avoid foreclosure. Reality is everyone of the proposed programs helps the Banks first. Any help to the consumer, stupid enough to buy a house and mortgage he/she couldn't afford, is purely incidental.

However, considering the potential candidates for November. It's best that the US school system is so poor. An educated and knowledgeable population wouldn't put up with this nonsense.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 11:48:57 AM

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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Merc, well said.
The pendulum has swung so far towards the corporations and so far away from the workers in this country that it's time that it starts going in the other direction.
Twelve dollars an hour is "1970's" pay!
The worker/consumer has been squeezed out until they are almost dry.
They don't need anymore factors driving their wages down.
Sometimes it sounds as though these "open borders" people are Corporate shills or something. They certainly don't care about the working man or woman in this country who are vastly underpaid but they seem to worry about the "corporations" not being able to find enough workers at slave wages.
Meanwhile we have people with Master's degrees working at Starbucks and Home Depot.
We definately need to see some prison time for the employers of illegal aliens.
Give them 3-5 years to reflect on their Greed.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 12:46:31 PM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Popeye highlighted the agenda by many... there's nothing quite like transference! The BNP focused (British National Party) on Immigration to incite people and push their agenda. The BNP is a far right political party, it excludes anyone that is non-white and surfaced when the National Front, another notorious political party who were staunchly committed to reversing the tide of non-white immigration, were exposed as racially inciting violence towards non-whites. Sadly, it is claimed to be making a resurgance. But my point about transference is that often, when people step on the hotplate and provide others with insights into their political agendas, they tend to engage in damage limitation and force focus away from themselves.

What's interesting about their focus on immigration is that one argument frequently used is that those working illegally in the US somehow damage the economy. The amusing fact is that by providing such cheap labour, labour that is often, given in appalling conditions, with no medical treatment, meagre sustenance rations, is that these 'illegals' are supporting the economy, not destroying it. It'd be interesting to see how rapid the economy would plummet should their contributions ever stop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
There's so much profit to be made from illegal aliens' work, do you think the economy would manage to recover were we to loose the cheap fruits of their labour ?

You talk of transference and Popeye was right, the minute illegal labour is mentioned, the word "Racist" gets bandied around. I dont see a general resurgance of the BNP, in the last general election they didnt even get 3/4 of 1% of the vote. This doesnt mean that many people are not worried by, and want to discuss, the effect of illegal labour.

The fact illegal labour underpins sections of the economy, fails to make it right, that human beings can be forced to work in the conditions you mention.

Everyone fails to see the fact that in many cases, there are just not the sufficient numbers of locals to do the jobs required. In these cases labour laws should be enforced on employers to do the right thing.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

RE: those damn illegals - 3/31/2008 2:15:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
If an economy is so dependant on an illegal factor then that weakness will almost inevitably lead to a crash of some sort some day.

The economy in parts of the country (emphasis on "parts") is greatly influenced by the need to have a large pool of lower wage workers. That just is, what it is. This is both a national and a regional problem. The talking points by Popeye and Merc, use the former to support their position, while completely ignoring the latter.

I still haven't seen any workable solutions presented. The minimum wage is not going to be raised to twenty dollars an hour. Using that as a solution ... it makes a nice, feel good thread, but has no meaning past that. Inisisting that these folks will just leave if we go after the employers that hire them ... again, that sounds nice, and makes a great thread, but doesn't address the point of what we would do, if the poster is incorrect.

So, if we try to stick to what can actually be accomplished, perhaps we can have some debate that goes beyond what sounds nice, and makes a good thread. For discussion.

1. We could make all people in the United States as workers, immediately legal. There could be conditions like learning English and paying taxes, but the point remains. This absolutely does address the point of those that hammer in the letter of the law. They would no longer be illegal, so we would no longer have an enforcement problem, either for the people or those that employ them.

2. These people live here now, and have jobs now. There is no question that we could absorb them ... they are here already.

3. Tax revenue gathered from these people, could be used to strengthen border enforcement, if thats what we decide needs to happen.

4. American companies that have moved overseas, should be stongly encouraged, one way or the other, to move back to the United States, to take advantage of this new legal, low income labor pool.

5. Bottom line ... if none of this works, we are out nothing. There is no risk. This is a claim that cannot be made by those on the other side, favoring more drastic measures.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to philosophy)

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