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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

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ORIGINAL: philosophy
If an economy is so dependant on an illegal factor then that weakness will almost inevitably lead to a crash of some sort some day.

The economy in parts of the country (emphasis on "parts") is greatly influenced by the need to have a large pool of lower wage workers. That just is, what it is. This is both a national and a regional problem. The talking points by Popeye and Merc, use the former to support their position, while completely ignoring the latter.
 
I still haven't seen any workable solutions presented. The minimum wage is not going to be raised to twenty dollars an hour. Using that as a solution ... it makes a nice, feel good thread, but has no meaning past that. Inisisting that these folks will just leave if we go after the employers that hire them ... again, that sounds nice, and makes a great thread, but doesn't address the point of what we would do, if the poster is incorrect.
 
So, if we try to stick to what can actually be accomplished, perhaps we can have some debate that goes beyond what sounds nice, and makes a good thread. For discussion.
 
1. We could make all people in the United States as workers, immediately legal. There could be conditions like learning English and paying taxes, but the point remains. This absolutely does address the point of those that hammer in the letter of the law. They would no longer be illegal, so we would no longer have an enforcement problem, either for the people or those that employ them.
 
2. These people live here now, and have jobs now. There is no question that we could absorb them ... they are here already.
 
3. Tax revenue gathered from these people, could be used to strengthen border enforcement, if thats what we decide needs to happen.
 
4. American companies that have moved overseas, should be stongly encouraged, one way or the other, to move back to the United States, to take advantage of this new legal, low income labor pool.
 
5. Bottom line ... if none of this works, we are out nothing. There is no risk. This is a claim that cannot be made by those on the other side, favoring more drastic measures.

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ORIGINAL: pissdoll

Congress has passed 7 amnesties for illegal aliens, starting in 1986.

1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens

2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens

3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994

4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America

5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti

6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens

7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens


http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Now what kind of argument is that? "That just is, what it is." Does it always have to be?

It's a practical argument, and one that doesn't ignore the way things actually are, in favor of a dream that isn't the current reality. Does it always have to be this way ... no. when it changes, that will then be what it is.

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Your bottom line is flawed. "Absorb"ing is much different than allowing an underground criminal economy. Its also flawed considering that should it not work, ALL citizen benefits, SS, SSI, Medicaid, etc.; would have be considered in the budget. SS is bankrupt now. Consenting to pay it out on 5 Million more who have paid little, if anything into it, and you may not be able to support existing beneficiaries.

One last consideration that is often left out of the conversation. How do you address those currently waiting in line at the State Department? What of those who are waiting for the LEGAL process? Do we just call them "fools" and say - "You should have snuck in!"?

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I don't think we need anymore "low paying" jobs in this country, I think we need to start creating some "good paying" jobs for working class and middle class people in this country.
Let's "outsource" "low paying" jobs.
Oh yeah, I can see some "incentives" for those companies who moved overseas, shut them out of *our markets* completely!

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

criminal economy

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

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ORIGINAL: pissdoll

Congress has passed 7 amnesties for illegal aliens, starting in 1986.

1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens

2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens

3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994

4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America

5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti

6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens

7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens


http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html

Do you think Ted Kennedy was fucking lying to the American People when he said that in 1986?

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ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada----My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers.

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ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada-and what of all the Americans running there now to escape the economy here---My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You talk of transference and Popeye was right, the minute illegal labour is mentioned, the word "Racist" gets bandied around. I dont see a general resurgance of the BNP, in the last general election they didnt even get 3/4 of 1% of the vote. This doesnt mean that many people are not worried by, and want to discuss, the effect of illegal labour.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
The fact illegal labour underpins sections of the economy, fails to make it right, that human beings can be forced to work in the conditions you mention.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Everyone fails to see the fact that in many cases, there are just not the sufficient numbers of locals to do the jobs required. In these cases labour laws should be enforced on employers to do the right thing.

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ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

So My question is what happened to all the Americans who ran to Canada during the Vietnam War and became illegal aliens in Canada-and what of all the Americans running there now to escape the economy here---My how our memory fades, must be Alzheimers.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

This is the second time I have read this. Since I live in the SE United States, and the cost of living is not very high, maybe this failing economy causing people to migrate is not an impact here. Are there people actually leaving the US to go to Canada because of the economy? If so, will that not soon cause the available jobs to become limited and then cause problems with Canada's economy?

As to those that mentioned something about making the Federal Min Wage 20$, are you crazy? Don't get me wrong, I am not on the side of big business but that would cause what is left of much of big business to leave the US. Several large corps in the past 12 years, when deciding to locate their headquarters, have chosen outside the US because of the employee expenses. This includes all the extra taxes an employer pays just to have someone work for them. Now you want to increase that even more? So how do propose to keep some of that big business here? How do you propose some of the small businesses stay in business with such a huge wage increase?
When a company goes off shore for labor they should be considered a foreign company and taxed appropriately thus bringing the cost of their product equal to a domestic product.
If a company is allowed to outsource their labor who will be left in this country to buy their product?
You speak as if $20 an hour is a huge amount...when I first went to work the minimum wage was 95 cents an hour and gasoline was a .20 cents a gallon.  That would mean that an hours work would get you five gallons of gas.  Today gasoline is $4 a gallon so it would require $20 an hour for parity.  If we look at housing the difference is even greater even with the "slump"  (some might call it a crash) my first new house cost $10,000  it was on quarter of an acre of land in southern California less than twenty miles from the beach.  It had three bedrooms and two bathrooms, hardwood floors and a two car garage and a fenced back yard.  That same house today(not a comparable one but that exact same house) sold for a half million dollars less than two weeks ago.
If the purpose is to destroy the middle class and have a two tiered society with the wealthy on top of a huge under-class of poverty stricken serfs then we are well on our way.  Henry Ford recognized that if he priced his cars within the grasp of his workers he could sell one to everyone of them...well he was wrong he sold two to every one of them and became a gazillionair in the process. 
As long as government is in cahoots with big business the rich will get richer and the poor will get pregnant.





As a small business owner, and as a Business Consunltant, I can guarantee the small and medium businesses are not making vast profits so this would drive them out of business.

Secure the border, however it needs to be done. Then assimilate those that are here illegally through a thorough process to eliminate any that are felons.
The simplest and least expensive way to secure the border is to remove the attraction.  If the jobs that these people are filling paid a wage that would attract citizens then the illegal could not get a job.  The simple way to do this is two fold.
Immediate and sever sanctions for those who hire the illegals.  Asset forfeiture  and prison time...ten years minimum(how could you give a slaver less time). 
Increase the minimum wage so that citizens would be inclined to take jobs instead of welfare.  Who among us would work for less than what welfare pays?  The person who raises their hand for this question is less than disingenuous they are a god damn liar.


As far as attracting some of the manufacturing and such back to the US, the Fair Tax would help with that, along with the US accepting that buying cheap will need to go out the window with increased import tariffs.

I agree...The U.S. is a huge market and if they want to sell here this is what it cost.
I for one do not mind paying what something is worth.  I produce most of my own food.  If I were to pay myself $10 an hour for the labor that is involved I could easily cut my food bill by 75% by buying in the supermarket.  I choose not to because the quality of what I produce is superior by all measures.  Consequently I am willing to pay the higher price of self production because I feel it is worth it.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I still haven't seen any workable solutions presented.