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"Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:21:32 AM

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So one of my submissive playmates is back to inflamatory journaling.
After a lengthy discussion giving her views on the apparent incongruity between being a feminist and a submissive (yes sometimes she worries too much; perhaps I need to beat her more) she concludes with:

Being a submissive doesn't mean I'm a lesser human being. It just means I get wet pretending I'm lesser and giving over control to another person. Getting horny from being submissive doesn't mean I can't be a feminist.

I have a comment of my own but first...what do YOU think?

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:24:28 AM

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Well for me it has nothing to do with believing that I am less than another. It simply is not a belief that I hold.I do understand her mulling over the concepts of being a feminist and submissive, when I was younger I too wondered about that and tried to find some sort of way through it or to rationalize it.

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:29:35 AM

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I've struggled with the feminism/submissive issue a great deal myself. What you describe isn't where I'm currently at, but I don't see anything wrong with her being at that space in that moment. For me, this has been a multi-decade struggle, and I really couldn't handle being punished for anything I wrote in a journal. Journal is my space, and can be used to open up a discussion, but not to punish (for me).

I think you both would do well to look at the issue of 'lesser' means. For me, 'lesser' would not be a constructive way to view it. I like to view it as navigating. When I drive somewhere with someone, one of us agrees to drive and one of us doesn't have to. If I'm lucky enough to not drive, I do whatever the driver needs. I appreciate not navigating. It is a gift of someone else to take on the responsibility.

FWIW, I enjoy the blog at http://feminist-surrenders.blogspot.com. Sometimes it is totally trivial, and seems erratic in both quality and posting times, but it has been dealing with some of those issues of feminism and surrender more than any other place I've seen.

_____________________________

"Ring the bells that can still ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." Leonard Cohen.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:43:40 AM

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Liminal: I have made clear to her that journal postings are NOT cause for punishment. I agree that is a good idea. I was kidding about the extra beatings (at least for THAT).

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:45:35 AM

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Sorry--it is too early in the morning for my brain to be working that way.

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"Ring the bells that can still ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." Leonard Cohen.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:47:29 AM

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As a slave, i'm the outward image of my Master's carefully planned and painstakingly carried out innermost desires and dreams.
As such, considering myself as less than Him would be considering His vision as less too.
i submit knowing that makes U/us more... not E/either of U/us less.

Hoping that makes sense this early in the morning...
-respectfully mY

(in reply to liminalRapture)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 5:51:06 AM

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for me it is simple, in submission i hold someone else in higher esteem and devote myself to them. i don't have to degrade myself to celebrate someone else.

i do not have to lower myself, i can raise them on my shoulders, but i am comfortable in kneeling.

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 4/9/2008 5:54:06 AM >

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 6:21:24 AM

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You know, sub men go through this most of their life, or at least when they first acknowledge their submissiveness. "Does this make me less of a man?" Many stereotypes reinforce this false dichotomy. And then one day You get past all that. Realize that you are no less a man, no less aggressive in other areas, no less protective of a woman, no less a provider, a father, an athlete, no less anything. And in lots of ways, more.

And then one day something you do with your Mistress, something she says (or in the case of your sub, something the two of you have done together) calls up the shadow of those old thoughts, like a flashback to a scene in an old movie. And You need to run your brain over it again, like a sore in your mouth, until you're comfortable again with it being there and you can forget about it.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 6:27:08 AM

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The feminism vs submission "dichotomy" is not the main point of my posting this. What do you all think of the specific segment posted?

< Message edited by MasterDoc1 -- 4/9/2008 6:28:34 AM >

(in reply to WalterRego)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 6:51:53 AM

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My first thought is that I would not allow a playmate to read my journal and if they were granted that access, I would feel violated if they posted what they read to a public message board.

Submission to me is about doing the will of another instead of my own will. It has little to do with who is lesser and it definitely isn't about pretending. Feminism to me is about having the freedom to choose how I wish to live my life. I choose to transfer all authority over my life to him. It is what fulfills me and what ultimately makes me happy. Sometimes it will get me wet and horny, but much of the time it is about living everyday life doing his will.

If this is about play and SM.... well pain, fear and force get me wet and horny. It is primal and fun!

Knight's Kyra

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"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:00:38 AM

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She's right in that she can be submissive and a feminist. I am not sure what she means by "pretending to be lesser", a subsmissive is not less of a person than a Dominant, its just that their roles are different. If being subsmissive makes her horny, well more power to her.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:06:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

The feminism vs submission "dichotomy" is not the main point of my posting this. What do you all think of the specific segment posted?

I think pretending to be someone/something can lead to believing that you are that way, if that acting is held for too long a time.A bit like visualization.'Act as if, and it will become a part of you'

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:27:22 AM

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Mark another one down for being lost when the person went to pretending they were lesser of two people.
Haveing less power within the context of the personal relationship by choice changes nothing about the value of either person.

(in reply to camille65)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:33:57 AM

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You also have to consider that your playmate might be fuly capable of being a femenist and a submissive becasue her submission is based on WHO she is with, not their gender. She doesnt submit to every male she knows, nor would she want to. She submits to you becaue you bring it out in her, not becasue you are a man necessarily.

My 2 cents
DV

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I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Archer)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:42:09 AM

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First - WalteRego, you write very poetically. I loved what you said.

Back to the OP - She's right in what she says - for two reasons.

(1) It's her opinion, and she's stating her feelings, not making sweeping generalizations. What she says is accurate in reflecting her feelings. If pretending to be 'lesser' is what turns her on, take that to heart. She gets horny submitting to you for your play sessions. That may or may not be enough for you, but that's how she's rationalizing her feelings.

(2) Submissive persons are not 'lesser humans.' Nor are dominant persons 'greater humans.' When I submit, I submit my will to another's, not my identity as a thinking, creative, intelligent, etc. human being. In fact, my act of submission is an act of power. I have the power to give or withhold submission to whom I choose.

A person who identifies as a slave is said to make that choice once. But in reality they make that choice at every moment. Each time something is uncomfortable they make the choice (conciously or not) to stay in the dynamic. A play partner is more overt in making the choice at each session. Either way, the choice is theirs; it is not taken from them by force nor imposed on them by some superior being.

Therefore, it is indeed not incongruous for a feminist to be submissive.

pip, became a feminist when it first became popular

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RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 7:56:39 AM

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I think diurnal is getting near the core of my issue with this.

Being a submissive doesn't mean I'm a lesser human being. It just means I get wet pretending I'm lesser and giving over control to another person.

Now it seems to ME that the act of SUBMISSION ASSUMES that you don't just PRETEND to be a "lesser human being" but that you actually believe you ARE lesser. Now note I said lesser NOT worthless; it could just be lesser in the way that Oprah has lesser cash than Gates (but still PLENTY). It seems to me that if you have to PRETEND to be lesser instead of feeling (with your heart and mind) that at least in SOME significant way you ARE lesser than you have the wrong dom. Maybe you consider yourself on a level with (or higher than) 95% of the human race. But when it comes to your dom...
What is the point of submitting to anyone other than your "better"?

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:11:51 AM

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Obedience has nothing to do with the value of a person in the sense of someone being inferior or superior. As a dominant man I value obedience as a trait I seek in a slave. My slave may in turn value my dictatorial nature. It's nothing to do with being less than or more than the other. It's a way of relating in which the persons involved fit well together as opposites that align in a unique way.

If anything, it may mean more that a normally feisty woman submits herself to the will of one. Perhaps it could be viewed as a unique act of extreme submission given the context (if it can be seen as indicative of an exceptional degree of personal sacrifice to attain the submissive posture).

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:17:41 AM

RCdc

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Being submissive is an automatic response to dominance. It has nothing to do with pretence. It has nothing to do with being lesser than anyone, dominant included. I am on the same level as anyone but in my equality I am unequal. I do not submit to anyone better but to one who has authority over my submission. I would not consider submitting to anyone who considered themselves my better, for no one is better in everything in every way over another. People are gifted differently.
We are all equally unequal. The only difference is that Darcy has authority over me that no other can have.

the.dark.

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RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:18:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1
What is the point of submitting to anyone other than your "better"?

Better in some way(s), but not in all ways.

I submit to a boss because he/she has authority bestowed by our employer. I submit to a teacher because he/she has better knowledge of a subject I want to learn.

Neither boss nor teacher is better in all areas than I. Many times a person is hired because he/she is better in certain areas where the boss nees help. A teacher is better in the area where he/she is teaching; the student may be better in many other areas.

When I submit to a partner, I acknowledge his superiority in physical power, in making certain decisions, but not in every area of life. Therefore I am not saying he is better or that I'm lesser in every way - just in certain ways. For the duration of a play session, I can 'pretend' to be lesser in every way, and it may get me aroused to do so, but the reality is that I'm not truly lesser.

If that disappoints the Dom, well, what can I say? It is what it is.

pip, I am what I am (c) Jaweh, c. 5000 BCE

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There is none so blind as he who will not see.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "Pretending I'm lesser" - 4/9/2008 8:20:22 AM

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Why should submission and feminism be mutually exclusive??...

Since the core root of feminism is about the abilitity to make choices...then making a conscious choice to submit should, in my opinon, be a perfect example...and in choosing to submit I'm not suddenly devoid of all the *capable woman* qualities I possess...but that being said choosing well certainly strenghtens my point!

Edited to add...I don't quite get the *lesser than* thing... less valuable, less important, less intelligent??? I never consider myself lesser and neither does he btw...

< Message edited by lanie38 -- 4/9/2008 8:49:39 AM >

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