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RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 4:52:14 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yes, there is something in everything, even washing the dishes one can go for a bit of zen meditation, the same with art, photography and crafts, anything. But with BDSM, like anything, the lure is you never know until you have tried it. Until that time it will always be a question that seeks an answer.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 4:57:38 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Yes I know.  But making it special because of spirituality is is no different to anyone stating that BDSM relationships are more intense, has more communication and contain more trust than non BDSM ones.  That just isn't true and is merely a way of trying to place something on a pedestal when it simply is as it is.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 5:25:07 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I am with CT on this.  All of life has spiritual elements from washing car to cleaning out the animals, BDSM isn't any different.  Putting a special spiritual slant on BDSM or anything else as if it doesn't exist in everything is a way of making BDSM more imprtant or better than something else and placing an importance on it - which is cool - as long as you don't rely and place unrealistic expectations on it.
 
the.dark.

 
I disagree.

Some activities are more spiritually satisfying than others. Some are more obviously demonstrative than others.

It is the difference between making a gift versus buying a gift.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 5:34:46 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Yes I know.  But making it special because of spirituality is is no different to anyone stating that BDSM relationships are more intense, has more communication and contain more trust than non BDSM ones.  That just isn't true and is merely a way of trying to place something on a pedestal when it simply is as it is.
 
the.dark.

 
And what of taking something off a pedestal that belongs on a pedestal?
 
This starts boiling down to the One True Way if you insist all should treat bdsm and spirituality as you do.
 
For me my slave expressed spiritual love more clearly than any other kind of lover could, thus my committment to her and love for her was stronger than it could be for any other ... we were connected through our love for each other and our expression of love was undeniable.
 
This doesn't mean anyone else has to accept the degree of spirituality I experience in their practice. But to deny its reality simply tells me you have never experienced it.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 5:46:43 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I do think there is a spiritual aspect to BDSM and D/s. It's not something I focus on, or make the goal of what I do, but for me, it has created a faster, more complete self-awareness than any other "spiritual path" I've experienced. I think it returns us to a primal, instinctive part of ourselves that we act and react on, but may not be aware of, or we want to deny or suppress. I think in BDSM and D/s we acknowledge that "animal" part of ourselves and embrace it, and in doing so we find mastery over it.  I also think that in returning to the primal aspect of ourselves we become more whole and true to the animal creatures we actually are.  At least for me, that knowledge anchors me in this world give my life more meaning and relevence.



(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 6:41:59 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed 
I disagree.

Some activities are more spiritually satisfying than others. Some are more obviously demonstrative than others.

It is the difference between making a gift versus buying a gift.


I dont believe we disagree.  You just do not understand what I said.  If someone makes a gift, yet there heart is not in it, but their heart is in buying a specific gift that they cannot make that they know the person needs -  there is more to the gift.
 
Making or buying the gift is not the issue - where it comes from is.
And it is isn't healthy nor enlightened to assume and make a blanket statement that all BDSM relationships are more spiritual than non BDSM ones - because they are BDSM.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 6:57:30 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
And what of taking something off a pedestal that belongs on a pedestal?

 
This starts boiling down to the One True Way if you insist all should treat bdsm and spirituality as you do.


If you want it on the pedestal that rocks and whether is belongs there is subjective.  But don't push it onto everyone and expect them to have the same idea and your way isnt right for everyone else.  I never stated that all should do it one way - you are trying to instill words onto me which do not exist and I do not accept your attempts, thank you.  What I said is that placing it on a pedestal as a one true way, and not as it is at that moment.
 
quote:

For me my slave expressed spiritual love more clearly than any other kind of lover could, thus my committment to her and love for her was stronger than it could be for any other ... we were connected through our love for each other and our expression of love was undeniable.


But what does that have to do with her being a slave? or the fact that she was in love with you and the person she is.  Yes, being a slave is part of that - but the whole person counts, not only the fact that she was a slave.  That is part of it - not all.  The whole is important.  Being a slave may mean she found herself able to express it easier -  but its still within.

quote:

This doesn't mean anyone else has to accept the degree of spirituality I experience in their practice. But to deny its reality simply tells me you have never experienced it.


I don't deny it, so I would be grateful you do not put words in my mouth as that shows little politeness nor wisdom.  I did say that spirituality is in everything and in all if one is of such a mind.  And one spiritual walk is not the same as anothers.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 7:28:42 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
And what of taking something off a pedestal that belongs on a pedestal?

 
This starts boiling down to the One True Way if you insist all should treat bdsm and spirituality as you do.


If you want it on the pedestal that rocks and whether is belongs there is subjective.  But don't push it onto everyone and expect them to have the same idea and your way isnt right for everyone else.  I never stated that all should do it one way - you are trying to instill words onto me which do not exist and I do not accept your attempts, thank you.  What I said is that placing it on a pedestal as a one true way, and not as it is at that moment.
  
the.dark.

 
Dark, it appears to me what you said was bdsm was no more spiritually up-lifting than brushing my teeth or wiping my butt.
 
I'm willing to accept that is what it is for you. But it is much more to me.

On edit:

Not just that it was no more spiritually uplifting, but anyone who sees it otherwise is putting bdsm "on a pedestal" where it doesn't belong.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 4/21/2008 7:30:17 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 7:32:52 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
Dark, it appears to me what you said was bdsm was no more spiritually up-lifting than brushing my teeth or wiping my butt.
 
I'm willing to accept that is what it is for you. But it is much more to me.


Well, what can I say?  Other than you are wrong.
That said, I do find spirituality in both activities you mentioned and give thanks for all.  And sometimes, somedays are more spiritual than others.  Just as in BDSM.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 7:36:12 AM   
DelilahDeb


Posts: 429
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I see kink as an important component in my spirituality, yes, pagan. An important component in that it can put us into situations where normal life would not, and there enable learning about oneself. I desire to know myself and go some way to learning or even achieving self mastery, and that is self mastery in all things, so that I may be the best that I can be in my service to society.

This, to me is a path to take, an option would be to blindly bumble along, being blown like a leaf in the wind, with no fixed purpose, as I have been doing in the past part of my life,something which has caused dissatisfaction with myself and my surroundings.The problem with my surroundings, is not the fault of the surroundings, but my perception of them, I wish to change that through better understanding.Understanding only comes by learning and that is what I am seeking to do. I am prepared to in my quest, seek and break through the barrier of male stereotypes and allow my wholeness to shine through, if that makes any sense to others?

Now, I have pagan thought, a spirituality which works for me, but I am very interested on how others view the acts of BDSM, and what it means to them. Particularly if they feel a search for the spirit in what it is that they do. ?


My belief system (a particular tradition of Wicca) teaches a choice of practices that include consentual bondage and consentual flogging among them. The collection of practices and teaching as a whole do indeed lead to altered states which are related to the spiritual satisfaction and meaning I find in this belief system. Having come to BDSM with that belief system already in place, I find a potential for especially meaningful interaction with a partner who shares the belief system.

I do not, however, expect that anyone who chooses to submit to me or otherwise engage in play will move into the spiritual headspace which I may encounter as a part of our play.

In reply to the OP, I don't need to "search for the spirit" because I already have spiritual satisfaction in my life. I do feel a calling (from my Wiccan deities) to enable BDSM practitioners who may seek them to learn more about this path if they so choose. Gods forfend that I push any spiritual agenda on any kinkster, however. WIITWD is what we do, and what we all believe is entirely up to the individual.

Delilah Deb

_____________________________

"All acts of love & pleasure are My rituals."
--from the Charge of the Goddess, a Wiccan teaching

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 7:42:26 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
Dark, it appears to me what you said was bdsm was no more spiritually up-lifting than brushing my teeth or wiping my butt.
 
I'm willing to accept that is what it is for you. But it is much more to me.


Well, what can I say?  Other than you are wrong.
That said, I do find spirituality in both activities you mentioned and give thanks for all.  And sometimes, somedays are more spiritual than others.  Just as in BDSM.
 
the.dark.

 
Then I must accept that I am not as spiritual as you, as I do not dwell on the spirituality of wiping my butt.
 
And if I understand your correction correctly, you have at least placed your bdsm on a pedestal compared to your butt-wiping.
 
As have I.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 7:51:00 AM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		The answers I have found since I have been involved in D/s relationships implies, for me, my involvement  can be for no other reason then to find my life path.
 
It is to understand humility, and realize just how much control I have over myself and others, and how much I don't.
 
To understand one’s self, look for yourself in others; to understand another, look for them in you.
 
k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 8:45:22 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Ha Bob -  it's not a contest.
 
I don't have a pedestal system when everything is unequally equal. I'm sure you do and that's cool - but not for me.  It's more like scales for me that tip and change depending on the moment.
Because the moments always change.
And I love the tides of change.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 8:49:14 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't believe spiritual moments come only in the extraordinary. I believe mindfulness can be practiced in the most mundane of activities, and should be.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 11:10:22 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Ha Bob -  it's not a contest.
 
I don't have a pedestal system when everything is unequally equal. I'm sure you do and that's cool - but not for me.  It's more like scales for me that tip and change depending on the moment.
Because the moments always change.
And I love the tides of change.
 
the.dark.

 
I totally understand the tides of change.

Swat a mosquito, watch it suffer and I can find myself contemplating remorse, the transience of life and how life struggles to continue against all odds.

Sometimes a mosquito is just a mosquito, and not a metaphor for life in general.

But there is always something that I find transcendental when it comes to my intimate relationships: Love.

Perhaps it is a remnant of a species-based prejudice whereby I recognize my connection with humans more easily than I do with mosquitos.

On edit:

Wasn't it the Dalai Lama who said the best way to pray to god is through laughter?
It sounds like something he'd have said.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 4/21/2008 11:11:56 AM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 11:35:23 AM   
DaggerDom


Posts: 38
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I have a somewhat different take on it.  I think spirituality is a load of hogswallow, just another form of self justification for those who need it and a new way to feel superior to everyone else.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 11:51:14 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaggerDom

I have a somewhat different take on it.  I think spirituality is a load of hogswallow, just another form of self justification for those who need it and a new way to feel superior to everyone else.


I see that in the evangelicals, but a lot of spirituality is purely personal, without any interest in proselytizing others.

Of course, there are those who deny spirituality who act as if they are superior to those who have faith in spiritual beliefs

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to DaggerDom)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 12:35:52 PM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		It is unwise to shake the sleepwalker to consciousness; they tend to lash out.
 
If they choose to remain asleep, it is their choice.
 
k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 12:48:58 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

It is unwise to shake the sleepwalker to consciousness; they tend to lash out.
 
If they choose to remain asleep, it is their choice.
 
k


I've been told, most convincingly, this is one of my defining characteristics.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to charmdpetKeira)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 12:53:42 PM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

It is unwise to shake the sleepwalker to consciousness; they tend to lash out.
 
If they choose to remain asleep, it is their choice.
 
k


I've been told, most convincingly, this is one of my defining characteristics.


Use your powers wisely; and the force will be with you. ;)
 
k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 60
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