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RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 3:14:36 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

everything including cleaning puppy poo is spiritual in my definition....

Now see, that just baffles me.  I gotta clean the cat's litter box out later today and "spiritual" is NOT the word that comes to mind for it (malodorous more likely).


... showing us a good deal about a difference between you and crouchingtigress.


LOL... I don't think that there a difference between us was never much in question. 

But it does genuinely leave me curious as to the nature of the difference.  Spirituality is just not something I relate to... I don't consider myself spiritual at all.  Oddly, I've been told by a few who knew me extremely well that I'm a deeply spiritual person... and no one is more baffled by that than I!  A fact that just leaves me even more curious about the whole thing that I was before.  Part of what puzzles me is how individual and unique "spiritualism" is for most people, most seem to have their own version of it.  Yet I get the sense that there are common threads running through it despite the different descriptions and answers people give.  Even more perplexing is that often when asked, people describe it in very vague terms.... they talk of energy and being connected to something... but its as though they are trying to describe something they feel and are experiencing yet don't fully comprehend themselves and so can't describe it.  I'm left on the outside looking on curiously and wondering what all the fuss is about. 

I look at the flowers and see flowers, I see their beauty, their function in the ecology, their practical and aesthetic value, I enjoy them... but there's no energy, I don't feel connected to them or part of them or them of me... they're just flowers.  Yet someone else looks at them and they experience something I don't, they can't quite describe it, they can't explain it to me, but clearly there is a difference.  Even more curious to me is their observation of me planting flowers, carefully selecting them, deciding where each belongs, tending them, weaving a sort of pattern in my selections... to me its still just gardening, something I enjoy... to others, they see something spiritual in what I'm doing.

That puzzles me... what's the reality in that... that someone can find something spiritual in something someone who isn't spiritual is doing and which isn't spiritual for them.  Perhaps its all just perspective.

Life's funny that way.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 4:00:59 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.collarchat.com/m_759471/mpage_2/key_religion/tm.htm#761510
bdsm and christianity to me

http://www.collarchat.com/m_651144/mpage_1/key_christian/tm.htm#651149
"Christian" bdsm?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_101393/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#101393
bdsm lifestyle vs christianity/religion

http://www.collarchat.com/m_112713/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#112713
bdsm spirituality???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_114995/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#114995
Christianity and ds bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_154410/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#154410
a sacred take on bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_168844/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#168844
bdsm and religion

http://www.collarchat.com/m_176205/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#176205
sensuality & religion = what?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_193896/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#193896
religion and bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_275551/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#275551
christians everywhere!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_323932/mpage_1/key_religion%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#323932
no...not the spiritual trip

http://www.collarchat.com/m_299050/mpage_1/key_faith%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#299050
power and spirit

http://www.collarchat.com/m_133611/mpage_1/key_spirituality%252Cbdsm/tm.htm#133611
bdsm and spirituality?



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 4:03:43 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I was waiting for that.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 4:11:12 PM   
MichaelJ4u


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichaelJ4u

I will look at this from a fundamental position. To be spiritual necessitates a few things. First off one must have connection to their own soul. Addiction, egotism, denial and shame all play part in fading this connection. Next there must be Understanding Cooperation and Acceptance. From there, anything is possible. Being spiritual is about the connecting, and the tool or the practice leaves us vast methods and opportunities. One can find spiritualism in almost anything and others will find nary. Tis the fate of the own self. 
One of my favorite Zen proverbs is:
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, fetch water.
After enlightenment, chop wood, fetch water"  
     First of all ...welcome to the boards...
You say that denial fades the spiritual connection...but it seems that for a lot of people religion means the practrice of constant denial...anything they feel is too pleasurable is deemed "wicked".  One of the things about wiitwd that is hard for many to come to terms with, is that alot of it involves what some consider "immoral" acts.  i am a spiritual Christian person...but i'll borrow from a different path and say imo, "desires lead to enlightenment..."  Religion, spitrituality for me, is a personal experience...a walk with G-d that is mine alone...free from negativity and judgement.



I can appreciate your position. I also see much truth in it. But I do not always agree that there is spirituality in religion as a said outcome. I sometimes see spirituality come about in spite of religion. And as far as the forbidden and immoral, it depends on the era and the ruler or present anarchy. Whatever and wherever one can find their solace be it spiritual or purpose, I commend them for doing so with respect. Immoral, tabboo etc. are judgemental and cruel positions for society to take. It is believed that the aztecas were exterminated because they had a liberal position on sex in society. Yet they might have been one of the most advanced cultures of their time. usually words of such extremity have heavy ties to a society of ineptness to their own values.  Unfortunately, you would think that after thousands of years we would be past these positions. But alas here we are.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 5:00:05 PM   
mzbehavin


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		Even more perplexing is that often when asked, people describe it in very vague terms.... they talk of energy and being connected to something... but its as though they are trying to describe something they feel and are experiencing yet don't fully comprehend themselves and so can't describe it.  I'm left on the outside looking on curiously and wondering what all the fuss is about. 



*** How spiritual you are has little to do with your beliefs, but everything to do with your state of conciousness...States of conciousness determine daily actions and re-actions/perceptions.
Is is hard to convey in the form of words, that wich has no "form". Tatata, the suchness of life.

_____________________________

There's never really a good time for the whole Man to Beast thing...Just kind of~Whaum! and hope for the best...
ToTo from The O.Z.

(in reply to MichaelJ4u)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 5:23:59 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		As I see my spirit, it is connection, I feel connected to nature, I am part of it in material and life force. I see the things that come to mind freely as natural and if not tried, should, for the learning potential as we all seem to need to learn. Oh, I am opposed to killing, I don't even squish bugs if I can help it, as I believe who am I to have the right to extinguish a life force for the fun of it. Hunting, that is different, what I hunt, i.e. fish, I only take and eat what I need, leftovers, I give it to creatures. When I do fish, as soon as the fish is out of water and still with hook in mouth, I break it's neck to limit the suffering.

One does not need to be religous to be spiritual. I avoid religion, because it is too limiting, and is another person's ideas, I have my own ideas which work for me.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to mzbehavin)
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RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 5:38:58 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mzbehavin

Even more perplexing is that often when asked, people describe it in very vague terms.... they talk of energy and being connected to something... but its as though they are trying to describe something they feel and are experiencing yet don't fully comprehend themselves and so can't describe it.  I'm left on the outside looking on curiously and wondering what all the fuss is about. 


It is not so difficult to explain the connection we have with the universe, for we are a part of it.

I prefer to use physics to explain it.

We exist in a multi-dimensional universe, the fourth dimension being time.

Follow the path of all matter and energy back in time and you eventually find they all "connect" at the point of the big bang and the primordial 'atom'.

Because neither matter nor energy can be destroyed (only its form is changed from matter to energy and back again), the matter and energy that exists today is the same matter and energy that was created at the big bang.

Thus the matter and energy that makes us what we are is connected, through the fourth dimension, to all other forms of matter and energy throughout the universe.

That's just basic physics, connecting us scientifically with everything else.

The spirituality comes in when you posit a self-aware universe.

In a self-aware universe, all life forms are like brain cells, each contributing an iota of awareness to the whole.

Empathy, love, compassion are manifestations of an awareness of that connection.

Hate, fear, enmity is a denial of that connection, which is why these emotions generate dysfunctional behaviour and attitudes.

My apologies if this explanation has been too brief.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to mzbehavin)
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RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 5:43:18 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Physics and spirituality should go hand in hand, maybe they will someday

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 5:49:50 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Physics and spirituality should go hand in hand, maybe they will someday


I believe they already do.

However physics, like biology, can only explain the existence of form, not substance.

Biology can tell you how the brain works, but cannot tell you how it generates self-awareness, or love and all the manifestations of love known to humanity.

Physics can explain the connection between all matter and energy in the universe, but cannot provide an explanation as to why it should matter to us.

These are the domains of Spirituality.

Science tells us "What". Spirituality tells us "Why".

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 6:01:23 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I thought philosophy was about why... which curiously enough all modern science originally grew out of and diverged from philosophy.  Perhaps that's what some meant when they said I was spiritual... I am rather philosophical.  Semantics?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 6:06:05 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		At one time Astrology was a viable science, but modern science seeks to disprove that, but if one looks at Synchronicity and Synchrodestiny, coincidences, there is viability for astrology as far as natal charts and other event charts go.

http://www.meaningoflife.i12.com/coincidence.htm


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 6:08:10 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I thought philosophy was about why... which curiously enough all modern science originally grew out of and diverged from philosophy.  Perhaps that's what some meant when they said I was spiritual... I am rather philosophical.  Semantics?


I've always thought it was a matter of semantics. Both advise behaviour patterns, choices, ways of thinking and neither can use science as a "proof".

Where they have differed is in the belief in a "spirit" or "soul". Philosophy does not require such a belief (tho' many have been friendly with religious claims). Spirituality does require such a belief.

Perhaps it would be better to suggest that philosophy is a 'bottom-up' point of view, whereas spirituality is a 'top-down' point of view.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 6:11:55 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		No one has really figured out the quantum nuances of how mental processes work. We have some vague notion of cells storing and passing electrical impulses, programming and recall. There are commonalities and differences in this in individuals.
 
 I tend not to seek-since that would overlay an expectation on the infinite. Rather, I try not to have barriers to what may come to me, and to simply marvel at life.
 
 What happens, happens. For me to try to understand creation would be as riciculous as a monkey trying to extrapolate a world from a grain of sand.
 
 

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 6:52:40 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		But, back to the thread, BDSM and spirituality, maybe I am wrong, as I am not experienced, but I feel certain aspects have the ability to seperate the spirit from the body, allow it to fly. Or else, why would some of those of some Christian faiths seem to like punishing themselves, surely they can't be that much of a sinner.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 7:04:33 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		You can do that on an acid trip too.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 7:23:56 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

You can do that on an acid trip too.


I don't take drugs.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 7:43:30 PM   
CarrieO


Posts: 2432
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline 		Although this topic has been discussed many times here, I'm glad it's back. This is something that is becoming more important as I get deeper into my understanding of submission.
I was asked to describe "sub-space" by a contact here...for me it's connecting with "source"...the spirit of me/you/everyone. Bliss. It really is a religious experience for me. I wrote about it in a recent journal entry because I see it's where my understanding is headed. Not everyone understands or wants to. I accept that. In fact, I believe it just cost me an opportunity to connect with a person that spoke to me on so many levels.
I, also, ascribe to a pagan belief system and for me it's a connection to the primal....the basic begining. Not much different than any other type of trance-work.....whirling dervish,estactic dancing, drumming....anything that raises power.
But, of course everyone has their own feelings on this and for some this is just nonsense. I accept that....don't agree, but accept.
 

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/20/2008 7:46:58 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But, back to the thread, BDSM and spirituality, maybe I am wrong, as I am not experienced, but I feel certain aspects have the ability to seperate the spirit from the body, allow it to fly. Or else, why would some of those of some Christian faiths seem to like punishing themselves, surely they can't be that much of a sinner.


Christianity is not the only religion to practice mortification of the body so as to liberate the soul from temporal concerns.

There is the fast of Ramadan for Muslims. The Hindu and Buddhist aethestics. and many native spiritual beliefs that involve pain as a rite of passage.

It isn't so much about sin, as about the ability to focus on Love even when faced with the adversity of pain (consider most of the Catholic saints were martyred).

In that sense, it is a supporting argument for my bdsm paradigm.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 2:53:22 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		There are many of us, and growing, that feel BDSM can be a spiritual tool...as can service/being served. I think you'd be interested in two events. One happens once a year, in January and is called Southwest Leather Conference. We do a Dance of Souls at the end which is a hookpull/ball dance. SWLC

The second is Butchmanns, which happens several times a year in various forms. We focus on cathartic flogging, ritual piercing, mummification and service. Butchmanns Academy

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: BDSM and Spirituality - 4/21/2008 4:36:51 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I am with CT on this.  All of life has spiritual elements from washing car to cleaning out the animals, BDSM isn't any different.  Putting a special spiritual slant on BDSM or anything else as if it doesn't exist in everything is a way of making BDSM more imprtant or better than something else and placing an importance on it - which is cool - as long as you don't rely and place unrealistic expectations on it.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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