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RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 7:08:19 AM

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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It would seem to me that those who are weekend warriors or playtime submissives or Dominants can actually give a non-biased opinion on TPE relationships. Im not in any way trying to say that your input is any less valuable. LA I think you make great points but to again I do think your mixed up a little. bella is right that Masters/Mistresses are the authority figures in the lifestyle the bottoms/subs/slaves are what they are. I would think that all share a common bond dispite of thier places. There maybe a alpha slave or a beta but one isnt better than the other or in a better place. Thats what im gathering from your input. You take a stand among them and place yourself upon a pedstal that your smarter than the rest which isnt true. Im not smarter than any other Dominant in this lifestyle or am I smarter than any bottom/sub/slave but regardless I am the authority figure within the lifestyle.

Master Six

Master Six

< Message edited by SirSix72 -- 11/10/2005 7:37:02 AM >

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 8:08:05 AM

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

It would seem to me that those who are weekend warriors or playtime submissives or Dominants can actually give a non-biased opinion on TPE relationships.

Did you mean cannot give and just made a typo? I find this statment really confusing.

quote:

bella is right that Masters/Mistresses are the authority figures in the lifestyle the bottoms/subs/slaves are what they are.

OK I'm going to get a bit personal here. You agree with you slave. WOW I'm shocked.

quote:

Im not smarter than any other Dominant in this lifestyle or am I smarter than any bottom/sub/slave but regardless I am the authority figure within the lifestyle.

Master Six

No, your an authority figure within your relationship. Within your club. Within your social circle. To claim you are an authority figure in THE LIFESTYLE? Who gave you that title? Was there a memo I missed?
To make broad sweeping statements about the lifestyle often leads to misunderstandings and confusion. There is no governing body that oversees the lifestyle. There are traditions and protocols that have built up over time. But they vary from city to city and even from club to club. I do not want more power then I can handle or I have earned. And yes you earn authority in your community. I have seen many want to be leaders come up and demand their rightful place. And they often end up there.
Tony

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 8:09:46 AM

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

quote:

I am Owned, I am His property... but I am not a slave.

In understanding of where your coming from on the: "a slave as people view it in BDSM doesnt exist."..and "Nor does dominant or submissive - but that doesnt stop people calling themselves it"...How can it be okay and acceptable for you to say you are owned by another person, and property of that said person, when in the context of anything period, let alone BDSM, this is non-existent as well?

I think although terms/labels can be vastly interpreted, acceptable to some and not to others..it is just a simple communications tool to try and hone in closer to those that are similiar to our own selves. It is not fool proof but over the years seems to serve it's function well enough.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

Exactly starshined, thats my point.

I can say I am whatever I decide. Like Six is saying about the Master/dominant etc... the whole core of the question is why people refuse with the whole'Im not your dom' response - its because its personal and individual... and someone asking why people refuse to call someone by that word as in - trying to explain... um...

Your Master is Master Delvin. Whether Delvin is His pseudonom or not - it appears, on here, as Master Delvin.
Now Six is asking why does someone feel it important not to address him or people like him as 'Master Delvin' or 'Master Six'- or 'Master' and insist on 'Delvin' or 'Six' instead - just because 'they arent their dom'. (wow, I wish I could speak this instead of write - its such a long way of going around things...lol)... anyway... its because Master doesn't exist... same as myself being owned doesnt exist... just as me being a slave doesnt exist. Just as you being a slave wouldnt be recognised outside wiitwd. Its all personal choice. Six says that to him, being called Master doesnt denote power of authority over someone so by that, why shouldnt a sub call Him Master Six. But its personal choice and the way you interpret a word when there is no set definition(even with a definitions its difficult!). And if a sub decides not to serve him in anyway - and that is what it comes down to, service (not submit) - then its not being rude, its just not wishing to entertain that much familierity. Its not forcing a relationship when one doesn't wish to have one.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 8:43:25 AM

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

bella is right that Masters/Mistresses are the authority figures in the lifestyle the bottoms/subs/slaves are what they are.

But they aren't - that is a really sweeping general statement that has no baring on BDSM. Thats a personal view you hold, but it isnt LAW. The fact is that there is no laws in BDSM. There is no black and white. There never has been and hopefully never will be. If your statement was true, then what you submit as the question would be true. But its not. Its your own personal world which you cannot and do not have the power to push onto the entire BDSM community.

Em has authority because of her knowledge, not just because of what she is but who she is. A teacher doesn't hold authority because they are a teacher, but because of what they know, how they act etc and who they are teaching at that moment.

If you were attending one of her lessons, then she would have authority over you. If you wasnt at her lesson, she wouldnt have the same authority over you. Same goes as a dominant. Being a Master doesnt make you an authority figure over all s-types, just the ones who choose to be taught by that Master.

What you are proclaiming is false when proclaimed FOR ALL... its edging on cultism... If its right for you - great, but you can't go around claiming it for everyone, thats not what BDSM is about. On Gor - it may be closer to what you think and maybe want... but it definately isnt old guard, and it definately isnt BDSM for everyone...

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:05:16 AM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

Then we can agree to disagree then... I left the vanilla world a long time ago...

I'm not sure where you got that this had anything to do with "vanilla"?

quote:

if it trips your trigger to denote a relationship by not calling anyone else Sir or anything of the like then this again is the way you live this not I.

This is exactly the point that many of us have been trying to make, here. This is *my* protocol - and that it differs from yours. AND that it isn't any more *or* less "real" or "proper".

quote:

I can understand how you may feel about it but I dont agree with it. I do not have a girlfreind. I own property. she will always be property nothing more nothing less.

By your last sentence, I don't think you *do* understand how I feel about it. I appreciate that you can understand that I feel *differently* from you - that's a step in the right direction.

Sir is *not* my "boyfriend". But the word "Sir", like "boyfriend", like "master", like "husband" is a descriptor of a relationship, in my lexicon. It doesn't mean that they are the same relationship - but that they are both *relationship descriptors*.

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:07:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterEsqMDsgirl

At the risk of showing my age and time in this way of life/lifestyle (a term btw i HATE), i remember the days when there were only bottoms and slaves, tops and owner/masters... there was nothing in between. Being owned meant you were not only property but a slave and the one who owned you earned his postion from viable experience and respect from his peers. Ah yes, to have the days back when everything was very black and white.

There was never this universal "black and white" you speak of. Perhaps it was such in *your* social circle, but it most certainly wasn't universal.

Saying what you said above is like saying "the only leatherfolk who existed in those days were gay - there were no het people in bdsm relationships". That's myopic and just plain wrong.

People of all sorts, and all kinds of relationships, have always existed - you may not have *known* about them, you may not have *seen* them - but they *existed*.

(in reply to MasterEsqMDsgirl)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:13:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaohua

i kind of understand the "you're not my Dom" ..but for me the way i was trained i was taught that if you say you are submissive or a slave then you are not equal with Dominants. Self-proclaimed or otherwise.. you show them respect, you call them "Sir" or "Ma'am", because you are not on equal footing. Does this give all Doms full rights over another sub or slave? No. but it does mean you show respect...and there are times when you should be polite and other times when you need to put your foot down.

I understand that some are taught this way. But you (and others) must understand that some are *not* taught this way. To each their own - agreed?

If you agree, and truly believe that - then you must also agree that what I am taught is entirely appropriate in *my* life, and what you are taught is entirely appropriate in *your* life, yes?

Well then - when my life and your life intersect, it's entirely *inappropriate* to expect one another to act according to what we were taught.

quote:

If you are Owned and it gets to a point where you can't respectfullyhandle it anymore, let your Owner take it up..that's what they are there for..

That's not Sir's job, no.

quote:

if you're unowned, put yur foot down after saying politely and respectfully why a certain phrase, behavior, etc is undesreable to you. (this mostly goes for people who can't take "no" for an answer)

The politefully part I agree with 100% - for *all* matters.

(in reply to shaohua)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:15:56 AM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

The point of the matter is that you may have authority at a given moment but you are given the opportunity to be in this position of authority. This by no means that you are a authority figure by your own doing

An owner is also given the opportunity to be in their position of authority over their property - by the fact that the property agrees to enter into the relationship.

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:19:24 AM

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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I can see the relationship aspect of calling someone Master/Sir/Mistress. But what I cant see is being rude and not explaing your views of BDSM. I could care less if you call me Master. I am a different bird than most and a high protocol droid. I like structure but this dosent mean just because im Gorean that I demand the respect of calling me Master. There are many that I talk to off this site that are on a first name basis with me and I with them. But I still cant see equating a relationship by referring to someone as Master/Sir/Mistress. Why dosent that individual couple just say my boyfriend or girlfriend? It would seem that they grab the persona that they use in playtime and try and equate the same meanings of girlfriend or boyfriend with Master or sub. TPE to me is power exchange and leaving the GF or BF out of it. Like I said in a previous post that this to me is a generic form of BDSM. To each his own but they state it as if it is LAW to me and I argue the point upon the way I came to this lifestyle and was mentored.

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:21:53 AM

Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

but regardless I am the authority figure within the lifestyle

that is, at best, laughable. Six ... come on now ... you don't honestly believe that, do you? because, based on all the posts i've seen of yours ... i assure you, i in no way consider you an authority ... whatsoever.

a suggestion, if i may ... you might want to consider, at the very least, to proofread your and bella's posts (as what she says represents her owner?). take out the many many typos, mispellings, incomplete sentences and incoherent statements. make a point and either stick to the same point or open your mind to seeing and accepting a new way of looking at things. and, for goodness sake ... do not continue to insult people's intelligence and way of relating to the lifestyle when they simply disagree with you. there is nothing more honorable, in my opinion, than a little bit of humility in a dominant.

and i just can't help myself but to speak up about this ... just because someone, specifically LA, is a different person than you ... relates to D/s differently than you ... and is open to experiencing things that you are not open or willing to does ... in no way ... imply that she does not know how to define herself or is at all mixed up.

learn to accept people's differences and let go of some of the arrogance and maybe ... just maybe ... you will get the respect that you seem to think you are so deserving of.

perhaps not so humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:30:04 AM

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Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

sunshine,

I am open to new ideas and I relaize that there are people that are different than I. the only thing I dont understand is the way the BDSM ahs become generic. I am a voice of authority. I speak from my experiences and mine alone and I read about others that hold on to the morality that they were raised by. I dont have a problem with it at all. I have had much to say about limits and why they are there in the first place. Mainstream thinking is what they are. How can you gain experience by not involving yourself in someway within a play group? We live to learn and to teach but this makes us no better than anyone else. Im not a Dominant only when I invole myself in a scene. This is a trait of mine and im like this all the time not part time. Does this mean that im better than others? Of course not. You can try and shoot me down because of your own personal beliefs but really it is futile.Im not arrogant or pompus im simply just me and I see things from logic not emotion. I have my emotions under contro and have Mastered my life and others. This still makes me no better than anyone. I dont see how I insult anyones intelligence by revealing logic to them instead of emotion. This dosent make me un responsive to emotion either. I am compassionate but I refuse to let mine or someoen elses emotion stray from the place I stand either.

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to sunshine333)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:36:15 AM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

It would seem to me that those who are weekend warriors or playtime submissives or Dominants can actually give a non-biased opinion on TPE relationships. Im not in any way trying to say that your input is any less valuable. LA I think you make great points but to again I do think your mixed up a little.

It appears that you are calling LA a "weekend warrior" or "playtime submissive or dominant"? I'm not sure where you got that idea.

You also seem to imply that she has no objective experience with TPE? I'm also not sure where you got that idea.

quote:

bella is right that Masters/Mistresses are the authority figures in the lifestyle the bottoms/subs/slaves are what they are.

They are the authority figures *in their relationships*. Nowhere else, unless agreed upon otherwise.

quote:

I would think that all share a common bond dispite of thier places.

If that is a univer statement, you would be wrong.

quote:

There maybe a alpha slave or a beta but one isnt better than the other or in a better place.

How is this relevant to the discussion at hand?

quote:

You take a stand among them and place yourself upon a pedstal that your smarter than the rest which isnt true.

Again - I'm not sure where you got this?

LA has a legitimate position of authority on her local club's board. She's stating that clearly and truthfully. This puts her in a position of authority over *anyone* participating in that club - with regards to club business.

This has nothing to do with her relational role. It has nothing to do with whether she's "smarter" or not (though she's a pretty smart cookie).

quote:

Im not smarter than any other Dominant in this lifestyle or am I smarter than any bottom/sub/slave but regardless I am the authority figure within the lifestyle.

You are the authority figure within your relationship. You are the authority figure within your club - as it pertains to club business, and to anyone else who might agree to listen to you because of your position as club manager. You may be an authority figure within your social circle.

But are you the authority figure "within the lifestyle"? Nope. Authority is entirely situational - the situations I described above are situations in which you have it. They may not be the only situations - then again, they might.

Are you an authority figure in *my* life? Not hardly, unless I attend your club - and then, it's only as it pertains to club business. Situational.

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:38:45 AM

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

So what have we all learned from 17 pages?

That in a lifestyle that is seen as different from the mainstream that trys to base itself on being open minded, and accepting of all things even if not agreed upon that they reflect us personally..that we find that we are actually pretty stubborn and narrow minded when it comes to actually accepting. (yes you betcha, I fully admit to falling into that same category)..If anything it was a good reminder for myself..thankyou All for that.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 9:40:43 AM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
But I still cant see equating a relationship by referring to someone as Master/Sir/Mistress. Why dosent that individual couple just say my boyfriend or girlfriend? It would seem that they grab the persona that they use in playtime and try and equate the same meanings of girlfriend or boyfriend with Master or sub.

You have misunderstood my point *entirely*.

quote:

TPE to me is power exchange and leaving the GF or BF out of it. Like I said in a previous post that this to me is a generic form of BDSM. To each his own but they state it as if it is LAW to me

The only law is, there is no law. Thus - you can live you life and your relationships as you desire. I can live my life and my relationships as I desire. But the minute either of us starts expecting the other to live our way - we are dead wrong.

quote:

and I argue the point upon the way I came to this lifestyle and was mentored.

Which is right for *you*. *Not* necesarily for anyone else.

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 11:11:20 AM

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

To put this all in a nutshell.

I call Em, Em or LA, because either she has said it is ok to or she hasn’t objected to me calling her that (Which implies that I have her permission to call her that). This is just good manners. I visit her club or even ask her to run a discussion for a group I organise, you can bet your ass I’ll treat her with the respect she is due as either me being a visitor or her being a valued visiting lectures. This is again good manners and respect for another person. I visit Candy Stripper or talk to her, I call her lady because she has given me the OK to do so. I call SirSix72; Six, because he hasn't thumped me for doing so. Because he is Gorean I treat him with the respect I accord a Gorean Free Man including using Gorean protocols.

You call on me Pagan Religious business; I’d prefer you to address me as Reverent. However I’m O.K. with being called Bear (Which is what most people call me all the time). We’ll discuss how you prefer to be called.

You make an appointment to see me as a Professional Counsellor/Therapist, you can call me Mr.. However if you know me, then Bear is fine too. We’ll discuss how you prefer to be called.

You get employed on a Merc Team of mine (well not these days but you get my drift), you better believe that until you have earned the right to call me anything else you will call me Col.

You come with me to or meet me at a State Function, you will be informed of the correct manner to address me (with acceptable alternatives). But if we meet after for coffee, Bear is again acceptable.

You wear my collar I am Master or preferably Vanashae. In public, we’ll discuss the preferred mode of address.

Visit my home and you will use whatever mode of address is comfortable for you and we will again see what is acceptable to address you by.

The whole point is that, outside my specific spheres of influence I am just a normal bloke who claims no special privileges and makes no special demands but on. request – Use good manners. In the areas where I do have authority I do not tolerate rudeness. All in all, unless you are in a House Iron Bear Collar, Lady Neet's Personal Collar, or my Personal Collar, I do not demand that you kneel or address me in a specific fashion. Bear or Iron Bear or even IB is fine.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 11:17:21 AM

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Six - I am at a loss.

First you believe in protocol and that you can't understand the lack of it, excused by the 'You're not my dom' cry, which in itself is a falicy.
Then, it changes and then it's your protocol and you dont expect people to call you anything(which then defeats the question)
Then, its only with people who know you.
Then, You don't care on protocol from others at all.
Then theres the weekenders...

Six, I am soooo trying to get what your saying, but You have talked in circles.
If the above statements that you have made more recently are true - then Your stance has altered over the threads evolution.

Either way its cool. I enjoy word fumbling... its been most - stimulating...

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 11:21:59 AM

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

So what have we all learned from 17 pages?

That in a lifestyle that is seen as different from the mainstream that trys to base itself on being open minded, and accepting of all things even if not agreed upon that they reflect us personally..that we find that we are actually pretty stubborn and narrow minded when it comes to actually accepting. (yes you betcha, I fully admit to falling into that same category)..If anything it was a good reminder for myself..thankyou All for that.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

Nope
We learn that BDSM is just a acronym and that wiitwd differs from person to person and thats cool, as long as its all consensual and we don't try and press our own individual beliefs on each other without permission or force.... and that everyone is equal until we enter personal dynamics.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 11:30:58 AM

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

How can you gain experience by not involving yourself in someway within a play group?

SirSix72 asa Master Six

Damnation, i'm posting here again. *sigh* i would expect to learn from my One...not anyone else. i've never had a Man tell me he would not be interested in me because i have no r/l BDSM sex/play experience. Many seem to find it a turn-on. All tell me they must "re-train" an experienced submissive or slave to suit them.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/10/2005 11:37:18 AM >

(in reply to SirSix72)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 11:54:12 AM

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

To put this all in a nutshell.

(snip)

The whole point is that, outside my specific spheres of influence I am just a normal bloke who claims no special privileges and makes no special demands but on. request – Use good manners. In the areas where I do have authority I do not tolerate rudeness. All in all, unless you are in a House Iron Bear Collar, Lady Neet's Personal Collar, or my Personal Collar, I do not demand that you kneel or address me in a specific fashion. Bear or Iron Bear or even IB is fine.

Bingo!!

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: The your not my Dom syndrome - 11/10/2005 12:14:09 PM

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
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Geez. Have I gotten a good laugh from this thread. 17 pages and counting. It has been facinating reading and a testiment to the reality that some feel they have found the "only true way of practicing BDSM" and some feel there is no ONE way of living within the lifestyle. As a monogamous submissive in a private BDSM relationship which is real time, every day, I have learned that some here think I am not open to gaining experience.

And, as a strong business woman who directs many people each day, I have found that, should I have hired a dominant, I should submit to him or at least call him by his honorific title (LOL...like that's EVER going to happen).

I have to wonder if Six's swinger's club was owned by a submissive, would he lord himself above her/him? Chances are, that would result in a quickly unemployed "Master".

I have met other submissives and dominants in this lifestyle. None have asked to be addressed in any way other than their first names. I love to entertain in my home and have yet to have any dominant order his/her submissive to help me. But I have had both dominants and submissives ask if there was anything they could do to help.

Whatever else.....these 17 pages have been entertaining.

Sunshine119 (not to be confused with Sunshine333

)

(in reply to candystripper)

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