What is the real difference between a sub and a slave?

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What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 12:14:42 PM

masterjm2k4

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I was wondering just how much of a difference there was between subs ans slaves. Are subs treated more human then a slave is? Is it *really wrong* to treat either as equals(as in you don't control them the whole time if 24/7)?

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 12:28:50 PM

Sinergy

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They share 1 letter, and one has two extra letters of the alphabet tacked onto the word.

Just me, could be wrong, but... Wait, that belongs below.

In all seriousness, I believe it is defined by the parties involved, and there is no one defining authority which states the difference.

As an added thought, I think this is the third or fourth time I have seen this thread started in my limited time here.

... there ya go.

Sinergy

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 12:45:00 PM

masterjm2k4

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I understand that a sub has rights, while a slave has privileges(or what a sub might call rights). I am wondering just a slave comes to the actual meaning of the word and do subs/master find it wrong for sub to be treated almost equal to a master or higher then the sub/slave should be?

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 2:27:56 PM

sub4hire

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This same question was discussed here in depth a while ago.

The bottom line is we define ourselves. If I think I'm a slave then I am a slave. If I think I am a sub, I am a sub. I can define you in my own thoughts. What I percieve you to be. However your partner may not agree with me. I can name myself the Grand Master Poobah. Does that make it so?

Anyway in my vast travels through out life I've met many within the scene. Even before the computer age. What I consider a slave is far different from what most online folks consider a slave. I've seen one killed. We tend to go with whatever we learned at the beginning.

In my own relationship I am my Dominants submissive. That means I have a brain and I think. Yes, sometimes better than he does. He respects me for that. I am in no way beneath him. However, I do submit to him 100%. Although we have the balance it takes for any relationship to hold up over time. Mutual respect.

That's our relationship. Hope it helps or at least it is a bit of thinking matter.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 3:11:05 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

I've seen one killed. We tend to go with whatever we learned at the beginning

If the slave is killed in lesson #1, what does the lesson plan for lesson #2 entail?

Sinergy

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 3:30:11 PM

stef

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quote:

If the slave is killed in lesson #1, what does the lesson plan for lesson #2 entail?

Digging techniques.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 3:31:44 PM

perverseangelic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
The bottom line is we define ourselves. If I think I'm a slave then I am a slave. If I think I am a sub, I am a sub. I can define you in my own thoughts. What I percieve you to be. However your partner may not agree with me.

This is exactly how I see it as well. I define myself, and I am the ultimate authority on that definition. I can define you in my mind, but that definition is -only- mine and probably has no bearing on you at all.

If you choose to call yourself a slave, you are one. Period. (IMHO, of course)

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 4:01:22 PM

sub4hire

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Sinergy,
What I meant is we have our learned behavior. If my parents taught me to eat carrots. Odds are I'm going to grow up liking carrots.

If my first Dom liked rope bondage the most. I fell in love with him and he taught me everything. Odd's are I'm going to like rope bondage.

Just like seeing my dear friend being killed. That was my first experience what I considered to be true slavery.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 6:01:56 PM

proudsub

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quote:

Just like seeing my dear friend being killed. That was my first experience what I considered to be true slavery.

Did you witness this? was it consensual? was her dom prosecuted?

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 7:17:57 PM

iwillserveu

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A slave gets yelled at more by idiots who think that since they are "a" slave they must be "their" slave.

Some people will say there is more, but that is the crux of it on a message board.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 10:42:53 PM

sub4hire

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I witnessed her taking her last breath. I've told the story here before on the boards sort of. I'm always a bit concise.

Anyway when I was in college doing research on the lifestyle. Well research on sexual dysfunction. I gravitated towards the lifestyle. Anyway, because of this I got to know several Master/slave couples. Thinking back...I don't believe I knew many Dom/sub couples. Maybe that is an internet occurance.
Anyway...typical Abuser and victim. She made no move without him. Even when she did she was beaten severely. During one of their typical play sessions he broke a rib. Went through her lung. Laws change.
She ended up in the hospital. Obviously. Refused to press charges after all he was her husband, lover, Master and abuser. He loved her. She convinced them she fell.
Healed up.
The sick bastard had a heart attack and died. Only problem was she was a true slave. At least he left her a fortune. She could hire people to do simple things she had never learned to do. Balance a checkbook...etc.
Anyway, Apparently the rib never healed properly. Two months after the sick bastard died it cracked..back through the lung. She told me it was her masters will. What would happen would happen and she was willing to accept whatever it was.
She passed away the next day.

I call it murder. Other's may call it an accident. Whatever you want to call it a fine woman is dead. By the hands of an abuser.

We learn what we are taught as we are first learning. Hey, did that make sense?
I'd smack someone around if they were in front of me in person and used that term to describe me. I could care less who it was. People on the net don't have the same opinions as I do though.
To me a slave has zero rights. If they take their next breath that is measured by the Dominant. They do as told even if that means their own harm.

Anymore I take what people say with a grain of salt. You are whoever you wish to be. Whether it fits my own personal definition or not.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 11:46:25 PM

masterjm2k4

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so sad to hear that, and that's why I'm asking questions to ensure a sub's/slave's safety and not have something happen to them like your friend. I understand with a slave you can pretty much do nything to them and they might not fight back, but how much is too much?

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/23/2004 11:59:09 PM

SherriA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterjm2k4
I understand with a slave you can pretty much do nything to them and they might not fight back, but how much is too much?

That's something that should be negotiated between the two of you. Only you can (and should) define your limits.

FWIW, the internet (even a great place like collarme with some really intelligent, well meaning posters) isn't the place to learn SM technique. Find a local munch and/or a local educational/social organization. Go to demos, workshops, etc. Watch other people play and when you see someone who has skills you admire, ask them about sharing those skills with you. You'll find most people are more than happy to do so.

Read all you want about the tip of a whip cracking the sound barrier, but that's not going to do you much good when you have a signal whip in your hand and a living target a few feet away.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 12:41:33 AM

masterjm2k4

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well actually I'm trying to learn about the community and how much others define what is a sub/slave relationship and what would be abusive. I realize these might sound stupid, but I want to know what would be acceptable and what's not in the community, like for example as a community is it too much to hear a sub talk about thier master purposely break a bone in thier body kind thing

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 1:36:33 AM

kiki blue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
In my own relationship I am my Dominants submissive. That means I have a brain and I think. Yes, sometimes better than he does. He respects me for that. I am in no way beneath him. However, I do submit to him 100%.

I often run across the mentality that a slave has no intelligence, no will, no thought process of their own (or that they should).

I don't define a slave as someone who has given up all free will. If they have, I don't think it's healthy.

I differentiate between slave and submissive by what it is that drives them, in a kink relationship. I see a submissive as someone whose driving force, what gets them going, what floats their boat, as the act of submitting, a pleaser, a server. I see someone as a slave who prefers to give all authority to someone else in a relationship, that they may not love the act of submission as much as their submissive counterparts, but that it's part and parcel of allowing someone else authority over them.

Like I've probably said elsewhere on the board, I identify most with the "pleasure slaves", Oriental style, not American slaves. I see my role as being there to be pleasing to my owner, in whatever form that takes. I prefer to have someone else have final authority over me in a relationship - I can function quite well without it, but it's my preference.

I don't see slaves as being stuck on automaton, unable to do anything by themselves without permission or guidance (though, I'm sure, such relationships exist). While I may enjoy submitting occasionally, it isn't my driving force, though I will do it as part of the relationship structure. And since I choose what relationships I enter into, I'm also very mindful of choosing partners whose morals and ethics align with mine, and I'm not going to be with someone who would want to chop my legs off or indulge in extreme examples someone may bring up to prove their point.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 7:47:49 AM

randsboy

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A sub is somewhat similar to a boy, in that it has greater latitude where in to work and has the freedom to discuss a scene with the top both before and afterand offer its point of view without repercussion.

Whereas a slave would need to ask permission to speek before providing insite and is less likely to provide it, due to the whims of the Master.

Both have limits, yet the slave's limits are always being push further, many times without total consent. A boy has the privilage to stop a scene. The slave is never involved with a scene as per a contract and has become a comodityto its Master for trade. A safe word in both instances have the same meaning with the twist that a slave's may only mean a pause, whereas a sub's means to stop the scene completely and review.

i am a slave 24/7/365 and am a member of a leather boys group, yet have fewer rights than most of the boys, as i must obey my Master implicently and a boy can say 'no'.

randsboy

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 10:22:05 AM

Estring

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jm, use some common sense. Is there any time that breaking someones' bones on purpose is a good thing? I have always gone with the philosophy that this lifestyle should be an uplifting and positive experience. Whether you are a slave or a sub, you should be learning and growing in the care of your Master. If not, it is abuse.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 10:26:09 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

well actually I'm trying to learn about the community and how much others define what is a sub/slave relationship and what would be abusive. I realize these might sound stupid, but I want to know what would be acceptable and what's not in the community, like for example as a community is it too much to hear a sub talk about thier master purposely break a bone in thier body kind thing (

masterjmk24,

The only stupid question is the one you dont ask.

In my mind, the question is not "what is acceptable in the lifestyle." The question I suggest you ask is what is acceptable to you.

A lot of people like what is called breath play, which involves cutting off air sources for certain amounts of time. This is a soft (firm) limit for me, largely because as a martial artist for years with a lot of research into medical aspects of it, I dont personally feel confident about cutting off her air supply without a full defibrillator and paramedic team standing by. It is firm, because if she really wanted me to learn how to do it I would find demonstrations, research it thoroughly, find somebody who knew what they were doing and watch them, take lessons, etc., so I could do it right.

On the other hand I really love knife play. I taught knife combat for years and years and years and am fascinated by knives. Tying her up in one of my Arrow business shirts over scanty underwear, cutting it all off, tracing the... (FOCUS SINERGY!) really does something for me. But I have not had a submissive in my life who wanted me to do that to her. Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

I hope this helps you in your search for knowledge. The information you are looking for is out there, but you will need to go out and find it.

Sinergy

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 10:31:46 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterjm2k4

well actually I'm trying to learn about the community and how much others define what is a sub/slave relationship and what would be abusive. I realize these might sound stupid, but I want to know what would be acceptable and what's not in the community, like for example as a community is it too much to hear a sub talk about thier master purposely break a bone in thier body kind thing

What if you breaking a bone in my body was my fetish? The lifestyle and life in general is based on communication. If you want a vanilla relationship to last a good long time you better be communicating with one another. Same as the scene.
Everyone you meet will be diverse. People will have different fetish's. You may not be into theirs but that doesn't make theirs wrong. It just means you are different people.
The key is finding out what you like. Or think you might like. Make a list. Start looking for that person who closely resembles your list. Then talk, talk and do more talking.
Get to know who they are inside and out.
Remember what is abuse to me may not be abuse to someone else. The law defines abuse. Although, I'm pretty sure most of us here has went against the laws more than once when it comes to our play.
Stop stressing out and paying more attention to what other's think of you. Start concentrating on who you are. You're the only one who matters anyway.

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RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? - 7/24/2004 10:33:36 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

Digging techniques.

If she fails to dig her own grave after she is dead, is this considered Topping from the bottom? Should I end the relationship?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Sinergy

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"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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