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Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/27/2005 11:25:36 PM

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I recently joined a local BDSM group and have been talking to friends. I have discoveded a fairly large number of submissives that suffer from depression, myself included. I wonder if this is just a coincident or a trend in the lifestyle. I also wanted to comment on the fact that most counselors consider the Lifestyle as being risk taking, destructive behavior. Many of them feel that our attraction to the Lifestyle is due to abuse as a child. I am interested in hearing what others think
skittles47

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 2:31:29 AM

themischievous1

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From: San Antonio, Texas
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I think the counselors might have a point and believe that many submissives do suffer from depression. Many people in general suffer from depression these days. As far as this lifestyle being a risk taking, destructive form of behavior, I think that depends on what you do in this lifestyle with your partner. Does it lift you up and make you feel good about yourself and your partner? Are you happy? Do you feel sincerely cared about? Does your partner meet your needs? Emotionally, physically, and spiritually?

If what you're doing doesn't make you feel good about yourself or your relationship maybe the counselors have a point. I think we all know when we've been abused in the past. Inwardly each one of us knows whether we're in a healthy relationship or not. "Abuse" is relative and directly proportional to self esteem.

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 2:42:18 AM

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I can see the logic for why many subs may have depression (self-esteem, self-confidence issues, etc.) but I know of Doms who suffer from it as well. If you did a statistical study comparing depression in BDSM groups to that of other types of groups how would the results look? Is it anymore widespread in BDSM than it would be in a Christian social group, retired veterans group, drug recovery group, or even just a book club?

Isn't one of the reasons many of us pool into groups, regardless of the function, to counteract feelings derived from isolation? I see depression as one of the side effects of isolation so I wouldn't be surprised if it exists in every type of group on some level.

As far as what counselors think, I don't necessarily agree that BDSM is inherently destructive behavior. I think it can BECOME destructive for those who don't take the time to fully understand how it should be practiced. Is it really any different than alcohol use?

As far as the "abused child" theory goes, I'm sure there is some validity to it but I have to assume these counselors aren't claiming that EVERYONE in the lifestyle was abused. I never was and I assume that most everyone here wasn't either. So what's the reasoning for why we would be involved in the lifestyle?

< Message edited by 1RottenJohnny -- 10/28/2005 2:43:47 AM >

_____________________________

Compassion is a wonderful thing...taken in moderation!

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 4:16:03 AM

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Hi skittles;
Just my two pennies worth : I decided to take a break from the submissive lifestyle for a while to see how it would affect me. I live with depression, as well as a few other problems - note that I say "live with", not "suffer from" because I don't think of myself as a victim anymore.
In these few months I have not been an active submissive, I have become very uninterested in the whole lifestyle. I've found that I, personally, was using BDSM as a way to re-enact the only "safe" environment I had ever known - that of my abusive childhood. I craved the intense discipline of my childhood, because even though it wasn't really safe, it was the closest thing to security I'd ever experienced. It just doesn't exist in the real world - in the real world I tend to be a little lost, not always knowing how to behave. BDSM was an easy answer to that problem. Now I realise that it's not a good one. The best answer for me is to go out into life, and somehow re-train myself - look at what went wrong during my developmental process, and work out how to heal it.

Just wanted to give the side of the story of someone who really did find BDSM was a self-destructive behaviour - I've seen threads like this before, and everyone tends to dismiss the idea... But it is possible, for some.

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 4:56:31 AM

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garnet ... thank you so much for sharing your experience. i think you're very courageous to step out of your comfort zone ... the safety you found in this lifestyle ... and face the world alone. ... smiles ...

and the flip side of that:
once, when i was owned, i was telling my Mistress about a conflict i was having with my family. i was so proud to tell her that i actually stood up for myself. i surprised myself because until that point i was typically a pushover. she told me it wasn't surprising at all because my needs, as a submissive, were being met ... which gave me strength. i was at a place in my slavery that i was becoming more capable and assertive in my every day life.

i have felt both sides of it. i have felt very stifled and insecure ... and have also felt a great release and freedom within my slavery. i suppose it differs with each relationship.

i have also noticed that most of the submissives i've met have been abused ... and are overweight. not sure of any direct correlation ... just an observation.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to slavegarnet)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 5:00:42 AM

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It's hard to say. Yes I was shocked in the beginning because I did see a huge number of abused/depressed submissives in the scene, versus vanilla life.

But one has to wonder if its because people in sub-cultures tend to be so much more open with eachother about those things, because they form tight fast bonds that allows for speedier disclosure, so we simply hear about it more than we do in the vanilla world, or whether there actually IS a difference.

One thing is for sure, the ones who come into bdsm looking for a home, looking for something to escape from, looking for something they think is different from vanilla in terms of the work and getting to know people- always end up disappointed and disillusioned.

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 5:06:21 AM

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for me submission is a protective and safe inviroment i just have to find someone with out all there screws losebut when i submit i feel loved protected and safe and most of all happy i don't have this pit of empty ness that i have when i am alone

i live with a dis order and no submission is not just an escape it is who i am

_____________________________

i am a strong person and will not be pushed around which makes my submission a special gift that few are going to receave

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 5:51:07 AM

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From: Burlington, Ontario
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quote:

ORIGINAL: skittles47

I recently joined a local BDSM group and have been talking to friends. I have discoveded a fairly large number of submissives that suffer from depression, myself included. I wonder if this is just a coincident or a trend in the lifestyle. I also wanted to comment on the fact that most counselors consider the Lifestyle as being risk taking, destructive behavior. Many of them feel that our attraction to the Lifestyle is due to abuse as a child. I am interested in hearing what others think
skittles47

This group is for people who are into D/s or S/M while dealing with mood disorders like depression, anxiety, panic attacks, stress related diseases etc.

It is more difficult to cope if you feel alone with the problem. Talking with someone going through similar issues can be of help.

This is not intended to be a medical, diagnostic or treatment resource. If you need such resources I strongly urge you to talk to your doctor.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mooddisordersupportdomsub/

I believe if you take the number of people in the lifestyle and the number of people in the vanilla world, the percentages are the same.

Mood Disorders are epidemic in North America.

According to the manual of psychiatric illnesses, BDSM and fetishism are no longer considered a pathology. Being gay was once considered a pathology, but that has changed.

For some people BDSM is a healthy outlet, for others it isn't and only the individual can decide.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 6:36:27 AM

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Hello There,
I have been a sub for about 7 months. I play 3-4 times a week and at least one of the encounters is an intense impact playtime.

I am not only not depressed, but I feel more peaceful, liberated, alive, and free than I ever have in my life.
Being kinky has released something that's been trapped and un-reachable in my life since I was young.
For me being a sub/slave was like coming home for the first time & finding my own path.
Having the ability to have a BDSM involved life has been very energizing for me overall.
I have occasionally played really hard and had sub drop for a day or two, but my mind and emotions are on a very optimistic & on a charged curve if anything.
My Master is a huge part of my joy as well. He takes phenomenally good care of me physically, spiritually, and emotionally. Having his guidance, support, after care, and love feeds me is a lot of what I eat on my Blessed, Lucky and Happy plate that keeps depression at bay.

Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 7:06:03 AM

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I think is good to remember that whenever "counselors", "therapists" or "doctors" report something that they are drawing from people they meet in their practice -- in other words, from people who feel they need help or whom others feel need help.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 7:49:55 AM

Fawne

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quote:

Mood Disorders are epidemic in North America.

Yes, Ty and:

Most research conducted on the topic of depression, health is funded by the pharmacutical industry. The US medical establishment is profit driven. I don't know much about financial investments, but pharmacuticals add up to big bucks. Come to think of it; the current leaders of our national political administration have strong links to that industry ( I am told)
We do need medicine, research, care (of course!) but let's realize some of that and the studies which become popular thought: are $ driven. Not that profits a bad thing, heck, it motivates, and this is a great country, but let's be aware of all influences.

Personally, I beleive that many of us who arrive at BDSM are introspective, curious and could be more likely to self label, and also be diagnosed with depression. What do most docs think of paddles and handcuffs? Plus, as said above, its the same as being gay, just recently taken off the list of pathologies. Lots of folks think perverts are sick. <OK, giggle>

sigh..anyway..i feel really

depressed today. ;)

(in reply to LadyShoshin)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 7:59:33 AM

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I think mood disorders affect a significant portion of the overall population, not just those into BDSM.

As for counsellors, etc considering BDSM to be unhealthy I'd consider the perspective from which they are coming - they deal with people on a daily basis who are most likely not emotionally/psychologically healthy so of course their perspective is going to be skewed. They don't get a chance to talk to the bottoms/submissives/slaves who are in healthy relationships.

Just to be clear I'd like to add that I realize conselling isn't just for those with serious mental/emotional health issues and that counselling can be helpful for otherwise "healthy" folks who are facing life challenges. My point was that I suspect that the majority of people counsellors see do fall into that category therefore their perception of BDSM as unhealthy is going to be reinforced.

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 8:17:26 AM

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As usual Emerald Slave has said something I really agree with. I think that because of BDSM and deciding to become involved in the lifestyle requires a great deal of self exploration that people into BDSM (well some of them anyway) tend to have better self awareness. I know for myself it is that way and I find that as long as I take my medication I am fine! I am dealing with my depression in a safe manner and getting help for my depression and the issues that brought it on. The therapy I go to is BDSM safe for me as my therapist is lifestyle friendly.

kitten

< Message edited by subkitten32 -- 10/28/2005 8:18:21 AM >

(in reply to MsIncognito)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 8:25:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subkitten32
I think that because of BDSM and deciding to become involved in the lifestyle requires a great deal of self exploration that people into BDSM (well some of them anyway) tend to have better self awareness.kitten

Unfortunately that's not what I said and certainly not what I meant.

A common aspect of sub-cultures (any kind) is that those who get involved with them tend to
a) Form very intense connections to people very quickly
b) Be far more open about more personal information than they are in other environments

Part of this is due to the release of emotions one feels by finally being in an "accepted" environment after years or more of perceived oppression, and part is due to the desire to be accepted, the desire to be connected, and a relief at suddenly feeling appreciated as opposed to rejected.

And part of it is a huge mystery of the human condition.

People in bdsm are by no means more self-aware than people in the vanilla world, and certainly no more self-aware than people in other sub-cultures who experience this same phenomena.

(in reply to subkitten32)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 9:11:23 AM

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There is much more public awareness of depression. This may be why you are seeing more depressed people, in general.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 9:30:35 AM

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Depression is common today and has nothing to do with the lifestyle. I have suffered depression twice in my life, and each was differant from the other and had nothing to do with BDSM. First time I sought help and the quack was, well a quack and totally useless. All she wanted to do was drug me up which I refused. As for what the quacks think about the lifestyle, for me it is the normal kind of BS they always spout.

_____________________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities
can make you commit atrocities.
—Voltaire

It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong
—Voltaire

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 9:51:27 AM

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I’m relating all of this to Australia, which means this does not necessarily apply to the US.

Generally speaking, people in either sub cultures of specialist groups do tend to drop their barriers much more quickly and are more open to the psychological and emotional ups and downs of the group that in lets say the work place or a more general social environment. Much of this is to do with the areas or shared or common interest. Wicca is probably a good example of this in a non BDSM environment. It is generally in our nature to feel a need to be accepted within a group. With some if not most barriers being down and whilst under the intense influence of the group, some people are far more open to being influenced at deeper levels and so may become depressed due to a negative atmosphere. I believe it is generally recognised that there are more people recognised as suffering with depression in today’s society. However I personally believe that all that changed in society is the dynamics. (Moves from farming to cities etc including the breakdown of traditional family units all create their own pressures which although are different from that of our forefathers is not necessarily any worse). In a nutshell medically and socially we are just more aware of depression that in decades past. People in close-knit communities/sub cultures/alternative life styles are much more likely to be aware of the depression as seen in others than in the wider community. Hence the belief that sub cultures are more prone to depression. It would be interesting to see the figures if they were available differentiating between social and mild depression and those folk diagnosed with clinical depression the various sub cultures.

Counsellors ~ There are few kink friendly Counsellors that I personally know and certainly there are even fewer counsellors who are involved with the lifestyle. My specialties include BDSM, paganism, Wicca and other occult areas. One of the problems for people in alternative lifestyles is the lack of funds to pay the prices for professional counsellors or psychologists. Hence they must do with the “free” services which are nearly all provided by a church organisation (Nearly all Christian). The counsellors there are, whilst well trained, also blinkered and see everything through the filters of their own faith. Heaven knows how many clients I’ve seen who were disrespected (unintentionally) because they were Pagan. Counsellors are taught to leave their own judgemental beliefs behind, but people are human. Most counsellors I know network so we can refer some one to a counsellor colleague who is more in tune with the religious or cultural ins and outs of the client. !0 years ago the mental Health professionals here would have nothing to do with the Gay Community. We are at that situation with the kink community. I have little doubt I will be in court a number of times again helping to defend the rights of kingsters against an archaic legal system and self righteous people including their families.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 10:32:51 AM

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quote:

I have discoveded a fairly large number of submissives that suffer from depression, myself included.
I also wanted to comment on the fact that most counselors consider the Lifestyle as being risk taking, destructive behavior. Many of them feel that our attraction to the Lifestyle is due to abuse as a child.

First, consider your pool of reference. If you are going to munches, play parties, etcetera where submissives meet and hang together, many times these are unattached submissives or submissives that aren't living with or seeing a specific partner regularly for a long period of time. Worrying about their status, their attractiveness to their next Dom/me, or the fact that they are alone can be reasonable reasons for depression. Go to any vanilla bar at closing time and observe the single people when they turn the lights up and you'll see a lot of glum faces as they leave alone. There is another group that is just as glum the next morning when they wake up hung over with the latest one night stand whose last name they don't know.

Whether it's vanilla or lifestyle when you focus on your physical needs versus your emotional or mental; once the physical is placated you still have to deal with the emotional. When you realize you didn't - you're depressed. I don't think this is limited to the sub side of the equation. Doms have the same feelings. It's a case of either not knowing yourself enough to know what you need/want; or it's a case of knowing it, but compromising to achieve a physical sensation.

Neither beth or I put much stock into seeking professional counseling. You'd be better off seeking counsel in someone you respect in the lifestyle who you see at the gatherings you mention. It's not that counselors don't know of the lifestyle. You can find "kink-friendly" professionals. My problem is the prevailing method they use is to try to establish blame. As if once determining who/what is the prober person or experience to blame for your feelings, that information will provide a "cure". BULLSHIT!

All it does is enable, and trap you into feeling sorry for yourself. Now you have a "legitimate" reason to be depressed. Blame is a fun game. Whether it's blaming the government for the price of gas or your parents for your entering the lifestyle it removes the onus of personal responsibility and accountability. Your parents spanked you so you need to be spanked or be a spanker. Your parents didn't spank you, so you need to be spanked or be a spanker - they can't be wrong can they? And it's never your fault. Your situation is caused by something/somebody else. You have a reason to be depressed. Here, take this drug because your depression is legitimate and you can't control it. Feel better?

Time is better spent analyzing yourself, assessing needs, prioritizing. If you know that jumping from Dom to Dom is ultimately not fulfilling - don't do it! If is is fulfilling don't feel guilty. Take care of yourself above all others. If you can't do that because you have others you are responsible for - accept that and make accommodations that are compatible with your personal goals. Accept that time will pass and your responsibilities to other will change. Set goals, and determine if your day to day activities are helping you get closer to them or farther away. Don't accept baggage from others or blame from others for their failures. Be confident in who you are. Make yourself the most important thing you own. Appreciate what you can offer another. Respect your value and you will never give it away cavalierly to someone who doesn't deserve you. And should you find someone who does deserve you, he/she will appreciate the value of what you offer.

(typos edited - DAMN - need a grammar/usage check to go with the spell check!)

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/28/2005 11:56:23 AM >

(in reply to skittles47)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 11:04:46 AM

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i see nothing wrong with couples counseling, in theory anyway. my dom and i just started pursuing it, for the sake of some of the more vanilla aspects of our relationship as well as the d/s. It's helped us to communicate better, and thus far with two sessions no one has pointed blame at either person.

Of course, we have to pursue the less-costly counseling through my school, and we haven't even gotten around to the d/s part. i told them in the beginning i wanted to talk to someone who would not tell us it was wrong, and would not tell us we had to change it. More about learning how to fit it into our lives and how to balance the need.

The first counselor i was seeing, i tried to explain how submitting made me feel. She started asking questions as to where else in my life i could find and nurture those feelings. i said nowhere else do i feel quite like i feel when laying at his feet, and its not something easily clarified into words. If that makes me a person with unresolved issues, so be it.

We both go through depression. He is bipolar and i go through mild depressions. But we work it through, and i think are happier for it.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Depression in the Lifestyle - 10/28/2005 12:41:17 PM

MsIce

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once, when i was owned, i was telling my Mistress about a conflict i was having with my family. i was so proud to tell her that i actually stood up for myself. i surprised myself because until that point i was typically a pushover. she told me it wasn't surprising at all because my needs, as a submissive, were being met ... which gave me strength. i was at a place in my slavery that i was becoming more capable and assertive in my every day life.

This is something I have discovered which is so powerful. My slave used to have a lot of issues with being unhappy and depressed when I met him. A lot of it was that he was unfulfilled and so desperately seeking the lifestyle, having fantasised about it for years.

The amazing thing that I have found is that like you, through his submission he has found strength. The more submissive he has become to me, the more strength he shows to the outside world. He is now a happy and content person

(in reply to sunshine333)

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