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RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 3:05:29 PM

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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quote:

What was said before was that all boundaries are meant to be pushed. To me, that reads that a dominant persons' boundaries are meant to be pushed as well. That was why I included expanding dominant people's boundaries.

This is not the same as what you said before which was: are submissive people meant to push their dominant people's boundaries? Should I push my dominant person to get invovled in heavy pain play?
It was that response that illicited the response of: If you want to push your Dominants "boundrys" then why are you even in a power exchange relationship as a submissive?

Dominants I am sure are often pushing their own boundrys. If they were not then it would be hard to push their property's. The Dominant learns new things as they go along, and incorporates them into the relationship..thats expanding growth for both. This is very much different than a submissive person feeling they should push the Dominants limits. Your the submissive one submitting to their will, guideance, control..not visa versa. If the submissive person has fewer limits than the Owner..hey then far out. Not sure what that even has to do with this.

Again some things are just common sense and do not belong brought into wiitwd. Sorry but to me it's just that simple. Again when in this circle when it is referred to most often and has been for a very long time in regards to limits it is in the context of kink, fetish, and to a degree natural fears/anxiety issues from previous life. Bringing in a boundry or limit of not eating sugar or fatty fried foods or any other such nonsense just stands to complicate.

"what Im trying to say is that there are MANY arenas to grow in, and that not all of them invovle the whips and chains aspect of WIITWD."
Yes you are correct there are many area's to grow in, and each relationship will define those area's for themselves as they move forward..but again when you speak in the context of "boundry's" "limits"..those area's are not what is being looked for when asked about in wiitwd if your again liking it to betty boop cooking class's.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 11/5/2005 3:46:17 PM >

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 3:37:57 PM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domasaurus

quote:

The only boundaries and fears that he'll push me to overcome are the ones that he knows I would enjoy if I did overcome them. He isn't pushing me just to push me, and personally, I don't agree with doing so.

Hear hear....that is exactly what it about - pushing a limit...just cause you can is borderline abuse, and I am talking D/s here. Any sub who is not growing or being nurtured in a relationship is missing out.

I don't think that it's abusive. I really hate throwing around the ol' "abuse" word. I just said that I don't personally agree with it. I was informed, by my dominant, after writing my entry, that he does feel he pushes me just to push me sometimes, and that's the sadistic buttmunch in him. *chuckles* But *most* of the time, his pushing is for our eventual enjoyment.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to Domasaurus)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 3:40:06 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domasaurus

Subs need to be cared for in many the same ways we treat our children. We create challengers, nuture them through difficult situations... Say a child has a fear of the dark. Do we lock them in a dark box? No we help them through that fear...dispell it almost...show them there is nothing to fear.

Same with a sub..say they are scared of the dark. What is gained by puting them in the dark box...nothing except a short cut to mental imbalance.

I think s-types need to be cared for as we'd care for any other intimite adult partner.

This "s-types = children" mentality doesn't fly in my world.

(in reply to Domasaurus)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 3:53:48 PM

Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

Limits. Yes, we all have them. Short list, long, most of the time, the word limit and Master/slave D/s or BDSM or any of the other labels, limits are just that, actions, emotions that do not want to be crossed. This is a good starting point to meet like minded people who want the same thing as you.

I have short blond hair, blue eyes, so, a girl who has a limit of "Only being with blue eyed men", means there is a possibility we might have something in common. "Rape Play", Its a limit, she doesn't want it, I do, so, this is something that is placed in the NO column and the list goes on.

Fire play, knife play, bondage, chains, roped, kink of any kind are my hard limits, I don’t like them.... So now, this gives prospective Masters and slaves a key to go by in finding someone to live with. Once you find someone who says, "Hey, I am the same, I hate those things", then you can begin a dialog of things you do like and go from there, perhaps actually getting up off the chair, going to the car and driving to the local coffee shop and meeting.

-----------------------------
Everyone has limits, and the above are just examples, though a very short list, of what can be found in a profile.

Pushing limits. This too is (I would hope) discussed during the dating process, and you can go back and forth with the YES and NO columns and fiddle with what works best for you both (or more). If, using an example from a post that a slave was raped and simply never wanted to have sex again, that is a hard limit for her. Should this be pushed?. Sure, its discussed, the Master speaks about different options, perhaps setting up counseling for the slave in advance, showing good faith that he is indeed conscious of her limits and is willing to help her through them. Is this a bad thing? Well, now this all depends on the two "GROWN-UPSs" now doesn't it? If the counseling seems to help her get through (not over) the anxiety of the rape and the fear and trauma it caused, who on earth is hurt by this? Maybe this slave will never have sex again, but, perhaps you can help her sleep at night without the nightmares in time.

Yes, push the Limits. Yes, Communicate the Limits, the desires and needs. Yes, CONTINUE to communicate the limits well after the relationship has started and continue to evaluate each limit.

Will Limits change? You bet. As we get older, frankly I do not see myself dangling starshine up by her wrists at the ripe age of 80. But I’m still going to smack that cute ass.

Don't change the already set labels, that most understand and call them yet something else, to eventually bicker over. Limits are limits. Boundaries are little white lines along the football field, if you step over them, your out of bounds and have to wait until the next play.

Have a very nice and safe day

D

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 3:56:36 PM

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Limits shoulds be communicated freely. Good ole honest and open communication. AS some respondents have mentioned some limits can be exceeded whilst others cannot be transgressed. It is knowing where those divides fall and erring on the side of caution without limiting spontaneity. To know this, you need to know partner very well.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 8:08:16 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

quote:

What was said before was that all boundaries are meant to be pushed. To me, that reads that a dominant persons' boundaries are meant to be pushed as well. That was why I included expanding dominant people's boundaries.

This is not the same as what you said before which was: are submissive people meant to push their dominant people's boundaries? Should I push my dominant person to get invovled in heavy pain play?
It was that response that illicited the response of: If you want to push your Dominants "boundrys" then why are you even in a power exchange relationship as a submissive?

I misspoke, because that wasn't what I intended to get accross. I try to re-read my posts, but on occation I am not as clear as I'd like to be. I wasn't trying to speak about a submissive individual intentionally pushing his/her dominant parnter's boundaries. Rather, about the boundaries of a dominant person being pushed at all. The example I gave was flawed.

The question still stands though--should dominant's boundaries be pushed as well? Are they -meant- to be pushed, as are, apparantly, submissive people's boundaries. If all boundaries are meant to be challenged, who challenges the dominant person's boundaries?

quote:

Dominants I am sure are often pushing their own boundrys. If they were not then it would be hard to push their property's. The Dominant learns new things as they go along, and incorporates them into the relationship..thats expanding growth for both. This is very much different than a submissive person feeling they should push the Dominants limits. Your the submissive one submitting to their will, guideance, control..not visa versa. If the submissive person has fewer limits than the Owner..hey then far out. Not sure what that even has to do with this.

Learning,yes, of course everyone is learning, and I agree that learning should never stop. However, why should one push boundaries one doesn't -want- to push? If, for example, a dominant person prefers not to share his/her property (a boundary) should he/she push him/herself to share with others? Or if the dominant person is grossed out by watersports should he/she push to engage in them?

I think I understand what you're saying--that there should always be growth and learning. But why should a dominant person be encouraged to engage in acts he/she doesn't enjoy because those acts are boundaries?

As to takling about cases where a submissive person has fewere boundaries than a dominant person-- that was intended to illustrate that pushing boundaries isn't necessary for a realationship where growth and progession occurs. It had been said that if boundaries aren't pushed, there is no growth, and that power exchange that occurs is somehow less than if the submissive peson has to be "encouraged". I was indicating a circumstance where there wouldn't be boundaries to push, but where the power exchange dynamic could be as weak or as strong as any relationship.

quote:

Again when in this circle when it is referred to most often and has been for a very long time in regards to limits it is in the context of kink, fetish, and to a degree natural fears/anxiety issues from previous life. Bringing in a boundry or limit of not eating sugar or fatty fried foods or any other such nonsense just stands to complicate.

To me, it's realistic. One cannot say "I will do anything" if one will not, in fact, do anything. I'm not out to break down every action that could conceivably be asked. Rather, I'm trying to encourage people to think realistically about what they are saying.

quote:

Yes you are correct there are many area's to grow in, and each relationship will define those area's for themselves as they move forward..but again when you speak in the context of "boundry's" "limits"..those area's are not what is being looked for when asked about in wiitwd if your again liking it to betty boop cooking class's.

Again, I disagree, I think that's -exactly- whta we're looking at--growth within a relationship. The fact that the focus here as been on the sexual/s&m aspects doesn't mean realtionship growth is confined to those elements. It happenst hat most people have sexually related boundaries and limits, but there are others that are equally worth pushing.

Is someone's boundaries being pushed less if one is ordered to attend a cooking class when one does not like to cook is somehow less than requring one to swallow after oral sex when one doesn't like to. Or, for example, to clean house, top to bottom when that is something one finds seriously distasteful. I can see both as being examples of boundary pushing, but we choose to ignore them, because they aren't as exciting.

Also, I've noticed in this thread a tendancy to imply that individuals who are satisfied in their sexual relationships as they are, and dont' have the desire to "push" are seen as less than. I'm curious as to the reasons for this. Not everyone -wants- to engage in teh same activities. A dominant person who doesn' thave the desire to push boundaries, and is satisfied with the types of service he/she recieves is not -less- of a dominant person, yet this thread has implied that the dominant person in question -is- somehow.

I'm not talking about a realtionship where all new elements are lost, or where adventure is lacking. Rather, individuals who are satisfied with the lists of activities they engage in, and dominant parnters who have no desire to push, because they aren't interested in the acts that would require pushing. It's frustrating to me to see indivudals speak as though people who are satisfied by this dynamic are less than indivudals who are satisified with a different dynamic.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 8:55:17 PM

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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quote:

If all boundaries are meant to be challenged, who challenges the dominant person's boundaries?

Again staying within wiitwd as far as limits go..The Dominant can, will, does at their discression.

"But why should a dominant person be encouraged to engage in acts he/she doesn't enjoy because those acts are boundaries?" There is a reason they are called Dominants..because they control. But your landing on both sides of the fence here with these questions.

Again if you don't want your limits pushed, then express that to the person your interested in forming a relationship with. If they don't agree, move on. You or anyone else has the power beforehand to avoid this entire topic.

"The fact that the focus here as been on the sexual/s&m aspects doesn't mean realtionship growth is confined to those elements."..Without those elements again in the context of wiitwd..pretty much nulls and voids BDSM. It is those very elements of BDSM that separates it from a ordinary everyday relationship.

There are a great many strict households where the Man is head, and the woman is submissive to him, and his word is law but they have not a clue as to the world of BDSM or a need to have limits listed.

"Is someone's boundaries being pushed less if one is ordered to attend a cooking class when one does not like to cook is somehow less than requring one to swallow after oral sex when one doesn't like to. Or, for example, to clean house, top to bottom when that is something one finds seriously distasteful. I can see both as being examples of boundary pushing, but we choose to ignore them, because they aren't as exciting." ..I won't even bother to even remotely further entertain those things as "limits" of any kind in wiitwd.

In any relationship, if you don't like cooking or cleaning..then don't get a mate that wants or cares about those things.

"I've noticed in this thread a tendancy to imply that individuals who are satisfied in their sexual relationships as they are, and dont' have the desire to "push" are seen as less than"..I haven't seen or felt this at all from reading any of the replys. Some Owners will, some may not..again definetely something that should be well established beforehand no?
I just see some saying that they feel "limits" that they perceive as negatively affecting their property in some fashion stating they feel they should push. I see some saying they feel they shouldn't. Okie dokie?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 11:23:24 PM

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/23/2005
From: Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

NO ONE that I have ever met has zero limits, and I believe to be willing to do anything is extremely unhealthy. To me, one that has no limits would be willing to dismember another human at the dirrection of his/her domiant partner. I don't see a person like this as one who has submitted to another, and I do -not- think this is a state to be aspired to.

Honestly, if someone says they have no limits I can either find them within less than five minutes or come to the understanding that that individual needs to develop a strong sense of self presevation and presevation of others. In my belief, regardless as to one's ownership status, asking one to murder another individual should -not- be ok.

To bad the government (any) doesn't agree with you. Ever heard of the army? They train people to do exactly what they are told and nothing else. Boot camp, now that is a brain washing program that maybe I should learn from for future purposes of training.

_____________________________

Visit me at http://blog.kistren.com

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/5/2005 11:40:33 PM

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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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If I come across some one with absolutely no limits I want to know which agency or organization they work for. However in the context of this forum and CM, I doubt if a genuine absolutely no limits sub/slave exists. Irrespective of this, I will set the limits of any slave in my collar for as sure as a goose farts in a thunder storm, I do not want a slave who has a mutilation and/or death wish.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to jro2020)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 5:55:05 AM

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Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD

Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits. If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.

The way it works with us is that everything runs much more smoothly when he is getting what he wants and not feeling constrained. So of all people, his slave shouldn't be constraining him or putting boundaries on him. So I constantly strive to not lay down boundaries on him, which isn't easy since we aren't perfectly matched and I've had to make some adjustments. I don't think its a matter of true subs or fake subs or anything like that, but rather that I see being his slave and telling him that he can or cannot do what he wants as two very conflicting states of being that simply can't and shouldn't co-exist.

After reading the four pages of threads I realized I should also add that I don't distinguish between boundaries and limits, those terms are interchangable to me. And also its not about pushing limits for us, but rather to just be able to be open enough to strive to do what he wants and frankly if i'm focusing on doing what *he* wants then there will be enough new and difficult things.

This myth of the perfectly similar couple is just that ... a myth (if you are looking at a relationship over the years). People eventually have or develop different interests, I think what is telling is what happens when those different interests develop (is the submissive allowed to veto or deny doing it... or do they actually adjust and allign).

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 11/6/2005 6:05:28 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

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The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 8:25:01 AM

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I know lots of doms who say part of the reason they want a smart educated skilled slave is specifically so they can be in position to challenge them, push them, and help the DOMINANT grow.

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 8:35:15 AM

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From: Texas
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And thats great :)..still it is the Dominant thats finding that submissive for their own agenda of doing that. More power to them!

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 8:40:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

And thats great :)..still it is the Dominant thats finding that submissive for their own agenda of doing that. More power to them!

Agreed, but what I tend to hear in this thread is a blanket "part of the doms job is to push the limits of the sub"

And that's obviously not true. Some doms don't care about pushing limits, some push some and not others, some feel it's the job of the sub to push the doms limits.

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 11:40:21 AM

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From: Texas
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Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits. If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.

I'm going to take a wild guess that it mainly seems that way in regards to whose pushing who's limits based on the topic opener?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 12:26:46 PM

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits.

The question implies that there is a choice here- either you have complete trust or you have limits.

There is another alternative- you completely trust them AND you have limits.
Remember- everyone has limits. Slaves who "have no limits" are really just saying that they accepted the masters limits as their own and it has become a moot point.

A dominant who feels that all limits are signs of lack of trust is on an ego trip.

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/6/2005 1:45:52 PM

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Since i opened the topic i will clarify with personal experience if i can. i have gone through the BDSM checklist and rated on a scale of one to ten what i am interested in. in reading through the checklist there are certain things that not only do not interest me, but are hard limits for me (not for everybody, just me) example scat play, and water sports. Now if i enter into a relationship with a Dominant that i trust these will still be hard limits with me. Does that mean that i don't trust whomever becomes my Master? No it just means that i will have to find a Master that will respect these limits and not do them. In turn Anal play is something i have never done before, so right now it is a boundary that can be explored. My original question was meant to ask that if a Master encounters someone who states that they have no limits how do they proceed to explore without mental damage? Does it mean that i am not a true submissive to have these limits? i was told in a conversation with a Master that a submissive who has absolute trust in his or her Master need not have limits and i would like to know if that is the case, how do You (Masters) handle those situations?

(in reply to starshineowned)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/7/2005 6:07:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD
My original question was meant to ask that if a Master encounters someone who states that they have no limits how do they proceed to explore without mental damage?

Slowly and openly, the same way you explore anything new.

quote:

Does it mean that i am not a true submissive to have these limits?

No, everyone knows the definition of a true submissive is that you have at least 4 orgasms a night.

quote:

i was told in a conversation with a Master that a submissive who has absolute trust in his or her Master need not have limits and i would like to know if that is the case, how do You (Masters) handle those situations?

Read previous posts.

As well there's a lot more to trust in a master than just limits. My previous owner was someone who owned me. Yet I couldn't trust him to be on time to anything, it was just how he was. He made it my job to try and make sure he was on time to things, with reminders and pushes and such. Does that mean he couldn't be trusted with my life in a breath play scene? No.

If a relationship decides they want to go beyond the scope of where they started, then they need to do it TOGETHER, making sure both/all sides are going with it and being fulfilled by it.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/7/2005 9:56:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

There is another alternative- you completely trust them AND you have limits.
Remember- everyone has limits. Slaves who "have no limits" are really just saying that they accepted the masters limits as their own and it has become a moot point.

This is our situation exactly. Our hard limits are matched, so there is no need to keep them out in the open.

quote:

A dominant who feels that all limits are signs of lack of trust is on an ego trip.

As Master says, "Give me a sub with no limits, and I'll discover at least three limits within 10 minutes."

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/8/2005 3:23:48 PM

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I'm glad you picked a "limit" that is outside the basic lifestyle type. I have a HUGE phobia regarding bugs. As a phobia, it is a completely irrational fear with no basis for its existence, that is typically what a phobia is. Living in Florida, palmetto bugs are pretty much a part of life, and no matter what you do, you will have an occasional one in your hourse, either dead or alive. I can not and do not deal with them. My son or a neighbor disposes of them for me. Yes, it is totally pathetic and childish, I am well aware of this. However, it should be considered a limit. While perverseangelic's issues with liquids and her ears are based in a very reasonable health concern, my phobia has sent me into a full blown anxiety attack in the past. I once dated a guy who thought it would be funny to hold a bug out to me to watch me react. He learned quite quickly it wasn't as funny as he initially thought (in fact it turned out to be rather painful for him). Some things, while they may be "little emotional bumps in the road", masters/doms are not remotely qualified to engage in behavior modification to change them.

Besides that, I do believe that it is a man's job to kill the bugs.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/8/2005 3:43:05 PM

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quote:

Living in Florida, palmetto bugs are pretty much a part of life, and no matter what you do, you will have an occasional one in your hourse, either dead or alive.

FlButtSlut

i will Never forget the 1st time my kid saw a palmetto bug...ROFL..i thought someone had stabbed her. i think echoes of her scream are imbedded in that apartment's walls, LOL.

candystripper

(in reply to FLButtSlut)

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