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Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 8:51:43 AM

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Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits. If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 9:02:23 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD

Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits. If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.

Wow, that pink font was extremely hard to read. Think you could maybe type in black in the future? Thanks in advance.

To your question: When I first began submitting to my partner, I had a long (longlonglong) list of limits that I simply wouldn't do, ever. Most of those limits went out the window when I became more comfortable with my partner. I've since mostly adopted his limits, and he can gauge my reactions. I don't believe there is a single person anywhere who doesn't have any limits at all. And most of the people who say they have no limits are lying or desperate. But sometimes, people who say they have no limits mean that they don't have their own limits, but share the limits of their partner.

As for people telling you that you're not a "true sub" if you have limits, tell them they're idiots and move on. People have limits for different reasons and in any new relationship they should be well-respected, in my opinion. If, as you go through your relationship, you find those limits are less important, then feel free to throw them by the wayside. You don't stop being a good submissive because you don't want to have anal sex, or do not like golden showers (or whatever).

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 9:02:42 AM

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD
Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits.

Limits don't have to do with trust, they have to do with reality. Even if slaves say they have "no limits" what they really mean is "any limits I have are taken care of by what the masters limits are."

Any dom who gets huffy about slave having limits and thus lacking some sort of trust is obviously not understand the reality of the situation. A slave that has a limit of eating sugar when she's diabetic isn't lacking trust in the dominant, it's stating a fact of life in order to be healthy.

quote:

If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them?

Relationships, even Ms ones, are about creating fulfillment in eachother. Sometimes hot spots should be explored and sometimes they shouldn't, whether it's a Ms or vanilla relationship.

quote:

Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance?

Everyone, in any sort of relationship, needs to be honest and up front with their limitations and issues at the beginning BEFORE making a commitment.

quote:

i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.[/color]

Again what they MEAN is "the slave has accepted the limits of mine and thus has none of her own."

Limit is just a word to mean "A line we can't cross if you want me to still be healthy and functioning." Everyone has them.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 11/3/2005 9:03:08 AM >

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 9:19:55 AM

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From: Portland oregon
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Submissives have limits as they are in control of themselves and their desires and wishes
Bottoms just enjoy being on the receaving end
Slaves. Have given that control to their Master so they do in effect have no limits and thus have to depend on the care and concern of their Master for their safety.

( in my opinion)

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 9:28:25 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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Of course, if the dom of that slave actually is giving care and concern, he'll listen to his slave's limits at the beginning of their relationship and act accordingly.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 9:57:29 AM

perverseangelic

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From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

Slaves. Have given that control to their Master so they do in effect have no limits and thus have to depend on the care and concern of their Master for their safety.

( in my opinion)

I don't believe this is possible. When we say "we have no limits" we are saying "we have no limits but those of our dominant partners." Or "we know that our dominant parnter's limits are ones that we can opperate within."

NO ONE that I have ever met has zero limits, and I believe to be willing to do anything is extremely unhealthy. To me, one that has no limits would be willing to dismember another human at the dirrection of his/her domiant partner. I don't see a person like this as one who has submitted to another, and I do -not- think this is a state to be aspired to.

Honestly, if someone says they have no limits I can either find them within less than five minutes or come to the understanding that that individual needs to develop a strong sense of self presevation and presevation of others. In my belief, regardless as to one's ownership status, asking one to murder another individual should -not- be ok. Even if it is an owner asking a slave to commit murder. That isn't about limits.

What I -do- think is good is finding a partner with whom limits don't matter. That is, finding someone who shares one's value system such that one never has to worry 'will he/she ask me to do that?" Because everything the dominant person would ask one to do is within one's moral framework.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 10:14:04 AM

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quote:

If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input

I would say take their idea of a "true" sub place it next to fairies & unicorns and RUN. IMHO subs are allowed to have as many limits as are negotiated upfront. Slaves have given their trust totally to their Dom/me that in theory has the sense to know that pushing what was initally a hard limit may cause problems. Too many horney net Dom's use the you're not a "true" sub to manipulate the odds of getting their kink fed.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 11:08:34 AM

LordODiscipline

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Everyone has limits....

Watch anyone who would state that they (or, their charges) do not have limits...

...as the next thing out of their mouth will be a rationalization and explanation for "why they do not have limits - in their opinion..." and, "how they trust their master to not exceed certain conditions which preclude them from having limits"

All very pretty, but also very telling about their basis for limitations that they consider inherent - but, are limitations none the less.

~J

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 1:10:26 PM

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Someone that says they have no limits, IMHO hasn't taken into account that that might entail. Nobody really knows how far they can be pushed, and without giving it a thought before hand, you may not know how far you WILL be pushed.

With that being said though, under the care of a thoughtful and insightful Dominant, those limits can be pushed without being emotionally or physically injurious.

--Anopheles

_____________________________

You've got me so high, my shoes are scraping the sky -- for my Luvdragon

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 1:29:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Limits don't have to do with trust, they have to do with reality. Even if slaves say they have "no limits" what they really mean is "any limits I have are taken care of by what the masters limits are."

That may be how you use and define the term... but it is not universally so. Many, many submissives have limits that effectively mean "I don't wish to or desire to do _____ with you at this time". That is totally cool, but let's not pretend that all limits are based in health or what your calling "reality".

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 1:37:17 PM

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Everybody has limits, its just down to the level of negotiaition involved.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 1:38:24 PM

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every sub has limits to begin with....most of them are emotional boundries that have yet to be breached...this takes time and lots of consideration.......when I met bella she had more limits than I had fingers and toes to count them all and through the time that she has belonged to me her limits have vanashed....but only through careful consideration on my part and adjusting her comfort level with different activities.........she is a slave but I allow her a voice and I listen to her fears and concerns........then I see where she is the most uncomfortable at and I work through this with her.......now she has become a limitless slave....this isnt something that happens over night..........I can understand limits but there are some that are firmly set against certian activities or lifestyle changes because it causes them emotional stress....this emotional stress is a mere bump in the road and can be overcome through the guidence of a good Master

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 1:56:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits.

I am fine with peopel having limits as long as they will not interfere with anythign I may require of them. As long as their limits are OUTSIDE my own, I couldn't care less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD
If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them?

By definition anyone in my service has limits outside my own... I don;t have to worry about running into them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD
Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance?

Not at all. Negotiation (such as it is) is pretty oen sided in my life. I explain my rules, they take them or leave them.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 2:52:24 PM

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Joined: 3/31/2005
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quote:

Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits.

Everyone has limits, and someone just starting out is likely to have quite a list of them. Part of my duty is to help explore those and push the limits so that the person grows. There are some that can never and should never be crossed. There are others that with time, experience, and trust, be blown past with abandon. Anyone who says they have no limits is likely lying to themselves. Anyone who says you should have no limits with them right off the bat is someone to move rapidly away from.

quote:

If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them?

While I think most such are not being honest with themselves, I have also met a couple of people who truly had no limits, and would have given themselves over to anything including death. To be presented such a gift after time to get to know one another is an honor, and scary as all get-out. To see it given at random to anyone is just plain scary. My own take is that with a true no limits, go carefully and check for landmines. If/when found, work around them or help them work through them.

quote:

Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance?

YES! To me, it is essential when first meeting someone.

quote:

i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?)

Subs, and even slaves, have limits, especially at the start. A sub will grow, and those limits change over time. A slave should, by the time a collar is given, trust their Master enough to know that they will not harm them, and move to the limits imposed by the Master. In neither case is the process quick and immediate, it takes time. Per my previous, if someone tells you that you should have no limits with them, and you are just getting to know them, move rapidly away and don't look back.

Just my two cents worth.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 3:30:20 PM

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i appreciate all of Your feedback, it does help clarify things! ok say that You are in a collared relationship with a submissive, and watersports really turn You on. She hasn't told You that water sports are a limit and says that she defers to Your judgement when it comes to setting limits. Do you then in a scene pee on her? Not a real life situation but the only example that i could come up with to demonstrate my question. How do You introduce new things (by talking, planning or just trying them out?) i apologize for the color of the original post (thought it was cute)

(in reply to Oberonrex)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 3:31:00 PM

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Limits are comprised of two parts in order:

1. Trust
2. Personal Taboos (for any reason)

Both can be massaged but never completely erased. It keeps one from becoming ectoplasm.

Thats simplistic I know, but think about it.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Oberonrex)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 4:12:32 PM

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From: Yukon, Oklahoma
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I agree on the pink, hard on the eyes.. :)

Limits progress with the relationship and trust in the Dom/Domme. Likely there will be many at the beginning of the relationship and they will likely be slowly pushed until they gradually fade away. It's likely they won't all fade away, but many will as trust and respect grow.

_____________________________

"They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm."
Dorothy Parker, 'Fair Weather,' Sunset Gun, 1928

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 4:55:24 PM

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Within the BDSM subculture, understanding limits is an important foundation of being able to participate in a healthy and pleasurable way. We often hear people that express a long list of limits, to an incredible short list and down to none. In building a relationship it is not only understanding another’s wants and desires as well as our own, but also understanding our limits that may preclude us from being able to fulfill another’s wants and desires.

I consider the whole aspect of limits from this view point:

1. The Boundary. These are limits that are imposed upon us by the reality of maintaining our own healthy well-being and not limits that are self-imposed or imposed by another (i.e. Master/Dominant). For example, the diabetic is not going to have that cup of sugar due to the obvious physical consequence it will have to their Healthy Well-being, or the girl that was violently raped might stay away from rape plays because of the intense emotional trauma and anxiety it causes that threatens their mental Well-being. It could also be that a person just can’t do certain types of suspension because physical permanent injuries or just because of the aging process itself.

We all have these types of limits – no one is immune to this. However, the boundaries to our Well-being will be different from person to person. These boundaries will evolve but seldom will we ever over come there existence. Sometimes the damage physical/mental and even spiritual can be so extensive that it will preclude us from engaging in many activities. To engage in them can only mean to harm ourselves. But because we have these boundaries, doesn’t necessarily stop us from engaging in activities that violate our Boundaries to our Well-being….. Self-abuse is a problem I am sure we all see from time to time.

2. Limits. We do indeed impose limits upon ourselves and by others … the things we will not do because they are perceived to have no direct or indirect personal pleasure or gratification in doing them for us and/or our partner. We often hear individuals state they have no limits. There are lots of reasons that they state such a thing… sometimes it is just out of ignorance, sometimes it is because they have yet to try and discovery activities that provide no pleasure and gratification for them and/or their partner. Often thou they are individuals that do indeed have limits but their limits are in-line with that of their Master/Dominant and thus it is an illusion to think they have no limits.

Many consider a slave to lack power to impose limits upon themselves. That only the Master imposes such limits. However, the Boundaries must always be watched for… they are not static… they will evolve. The slave does have limits… but they are boundaries to their well-being. The difference between the Moral Master/Dominant and the Immoral One is the adherence to these inherent boundaries of the slave/sub. In my Opinion, A person should not ever relieve themselves of the responsibility of protecting their personal well-being!

3. Challenges. Many use the term “soft limits”. I personally detest the term. I am a strong advocate – a limit is a limit is a limit! However, there are often times that we see activities that we have yet to try. Our opinion is uncertain, but yet we seek to try them. We can not consider them as either limits or boundaries, nor can we consider them as a pleasure or gratification to be enjoyed for our self and/or our partner. These unknowns, I consider as “challenges”. In fact, most of us when we come into the lifestyle can fill an entire list of challenges. Like any challenge, some we are ready to try immediately, some we must build upon before we make the attempt.

In my opinion, it would be wiser for the person to approach the lifestyle with as good as possible understanding of the boundaries to their Well-Being as they can. They should acknowledge that they have discovered and imposed certain specific limits to their activities. But they do see many challenges that both excite them and scare them. As well as express the pleasures and gratifications they have experienced and enjoyed. It is this manner that I expect a person to approach me.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to subspaceinMD)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 5:31:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Any dom who gets huffy about slave having limits and thus lacking some sort of trust is obviously not understand the reality of the situation. A slave that has a limit of eating sugar when she's diabetic isn't lacking trust in the dominant, it's stating a fact of life in order to be healthy.

I normally agree with many things you say, but here I must differ. I believe that someone who is a slave is not entitled to any limits whatever. A slave gives herself body and soul to her Master.

Of course, before she becomes a slave, she should know her potential Master well enough to know that his values are hers, and that she can give herself in this way without putting herself in danger.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Limits/No Limits - 11/3/2005 6:01:58 PM

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Joined: 7/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Limits don't have to do with trust, they have to do with reality. Even if slaves say they have "no limits" what they really mean is "any limits I have are taken care of by what the masters limits are."

Any dom who gets huffy about slave having limits and thus lacking some sort of trust is obviously not understand the reality of the situation. A slave that has a limit of eating sugar when she's diabetic isn't lacking trust in the dominant, it's stating a fact of life in order to be healthy.

Limit is just a word to mean "A line we can't cross if you want me to still be healthy and functioning." Everyone has them.

Ok im not the only one that has pointed this out.......limits do have alot to do with trust......to be able to breech them takes trust from the bottom/sub/slave...........eating sugar because of diabetes is NOT a limit.....it is what keps this person alive this has nothing to do with limits what-so-ever............

soft limits are meant to be overcome although limits for medical reasons is something I think we can all agree that shouldnt be crossed........most limits that sub/bottoms put in place a nie times out of ten are an emotional bump in the road they have never been faced with such as allowing the property to be played with by others or have others play with the Master..............

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

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