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When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 1:31:15 PM   
WhatUrSeeking


Posts: 49
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		I began my journey with BDSM with the belief that nothing is morally wrong or destructive to the person as long as all parties mutually consent to the behavior. In general this is true when it comes to sex. I have decided though that there is a point where BDSM sex can be destructive to ones mind, body, and soul even if both parties agree to the act and even enjoy the act. Let me give you and example.

My father is a psychologist. Him and several of the other shrinks were wrestling with an issue. An out of state doctor had asked for their opinion on how to treat a patient with the following case. Two individuals met each other online the girl desired nothing more than to be consumed by her master. This master wanted to literally eat his submissive. They were both willing participants and they both got off sexually on this arrangement. Over the course of a few months the girl cut off pieces of her own body starting with fingers. She would take pictures and mail her master these as well. Her Dom would cook her body parts and eat them. He probably sent her pictures of this as well. The arrangement was that after a certain period of time of his consuming her body she would commit suicide and he would eat her corpse. She amputated several fingers and possibly other body parts, but the pair was stopped by another party before she died. As I said they are both mutually agreeing and very sexually aroused by this. Both mutually agreeing and sexually aroused would have normally fit my description of a healthy sexual relationship that others should keep their nose out of; however this it seems obvious to me that the amputation, canabalism, and murder/suicide in this Dominant / submissive relationship crossed some sort of line to do with health, morality, and sanity. These people needed help. They were also into BDSM. So it seems there is a line where BDSM is not healthy, but where is the line.

Of note in Hugh Heffner's biography he states that anything sexual is O.K. as long as everyone is a consenting adult and does not commit the act with hate in their heart. His definition does not rule out BDSM, but it does rule out acts of BDSM done out of hatred. You could argue that it rules out the act between these two as well, but then we don't really know if this submissive amputated herself out of hatred for herself or if the Dom wanted her to because of hatred for her / women / humans / etc. Then again when I am angry it sure makes me feel better to take it out on a sexy bottom, and it does not feel unhealthy. Maybe even the great Heffner's definition is too restrictive.

I have often wrestled with this issue. This lifestyle brings me a lot of pleasure and good. I would not want it to cause permanent mental or physical harm to me or my submissive. In many ways this has been my new solution. Anything sexual is O.K. as long as it is between consenting adults and it does not cause permanent mental or physical harm.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on this subject.
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 1:36:03 PM   
Isabelah


Posts: 25
Joined: 4/7/2008
Status: offline 		In short. I believe the lifestyle can become dangerous or unhealthy when people with unfinished business use the lifestyle to deal with their baggage. Of course growth is part of D/s but I see so many postings of slaves and subs who are abused because they themselves are not emotionally/mentally healthy. I also have seen dominants who are simply control freaks who probably are more ODD , OCD, or NPs with controlling & abusives tendencies.

We all have our baggage and hopefully most of us deal with them appropriately through other support systems outside of D/s but for those who don't...I worry for them.


< Message edited by Isabelah -- 6/28/2008 1:40:06 PM >

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 1:38:24 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		The realm of SAFE, SANE and CONSENTUAL would have needed applied to your story. Amputation was not safe, nor was it sane. Just because someone, or a pair of partners are both sexually aroused by soemthing doesnt make it sane or safe. Theres a question of it being legal, as well. There are many people into scarification, amputation fetishes, things of that nature. Done safely and inteligently, they arent a major issue. This was way outside that realm.

DV


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VampiresLair

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 1:44:58 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline 		checksum FANTASY, REALITY where FANTASY=>1 and REALITY(null)

Or, if you want research:  Blind Beast



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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 1:45:33 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		Well ... simplistic as this may seem ... when something unhealthy or destructive happens .. exactly what is unhealthy and destructive is defined by the particular context

Me being brutally sodomised, humiliated and degraded - filled with fear, begging for it to stop and simply being laughed at ... in our context ... thats a pretty awesome saturday night .. and would leave both of us (him considerably sooner than me) feeling satisfied and contented.

For the girl I sat next to at a munch today it would be hugely unhealthy and destructive .. and such a saturday night would leave her brutally traumatised and with a near permenant feeling of having been violated.

as with most things ... its subject to context.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 2:15:58 PM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
Joined: 3/8/2008
From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline 		Wanting to cut off one's own body parts for another person to eat has nothing to do with bdsm. (at least in my own lil bubble) While they may  also have been in a Ms dynamic, that type of behaviour is outside of the bdsm realm.  (and yes I'm being judgemental. Just because I engage in bondage, or masochism, etc does not mean I am accepting of everything under the sun)

The case you described is beyond insane to me, So yea I think it was very unhealthy...but nothing to do with 'this lifestyle'




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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 2:36:11 PM   
pagankinktress


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		Oh yikes....

Like DV said, just because someone desires something or is sexually aroused by a particular act does not mean it is sane or safe.  And I also would like to echo Isabelah's comment on how BDSM can become unhealthy when participants use it as an outlet to deal with unfinished business.  It's really a fine line.  I mean, we all are who we are, and come with our own "baggage" and past experiences that may or may not have been positive.  I think for me, the thing that signals the loudest that a BDSM relationship is bordering on unhealthy or dangerous is when there is an excessive dependance on one or the other to *make* them feel a certain way.  There have been some fantastic threads in here the last few days discussing the concept of personal strength, and to me,  whether you are on the "D" or "s" side of the equation, there needs to be a general sense of personal strength within before committing to a D/s exchange.  Both parties bring their own individual qualities of strength and confidence to enhance one another's well-being.  But the operative word is enhance.  You can't enhance or bring about a feeling in someone which already didn't exist there in the first place.

Great discussion so far, btw. =)

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 2:40:27 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		well i must be unhealthy and destructive then. *sigh*

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 2:45:27 PM   
pagankinktress


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah CT, so therefore I'm going to have to send you back your fingertips...sorry...

Bad, bad joke....I know...but I could not possibly resist! 

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 2:53:16 PM   
blackbeard519


Posts: 19
Joined: 6/8/2008
Status: offline 		I think the answer to this question lies in what happens after in a psychological sense.

If anyone is left feeling inappropriately violated (note the qualifier), then a line has been crossed

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:02:56 PM   
pagankinktress


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		I understand what you're saying blackbeard, but my question to throw back out to you is: would a person with clinical mental illness necessarily be able to articulate or be fully aware of being inappropirately violated?  Please bear in mind, I throw this out loosely, because based on the OP's presentation of the case, I am only assuming there were underlying mental health issues in the participants of that situation. 

And who determines what is inappropriate?

< Message edited by pagankinktress -- 6/28/2008 3:03:40 PM >

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:08:27 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		ok so i guess ill share, even though i am scared too, because i dont really want to be judged....but i have done an amputation scene and it was incredibly intimate and amazing...i plan on doing more. i feel that i am the only one who can make these decisions about my own body, and if i want to live my life with out a bodypart and with a an amazing memory that is my choice. your millage may vary.

is my fettish going to become dibilitating? i dont know, i dont think so, but it is important to note that according to my "peers" on this board, many folks already feel it has already become so....at the end of the day, all i have is my personal barameter, and the hope that it is not broken.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:17:35 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		I think the #1 mistake people make when thinking about topics like this is that BDSM is somehow "special."  It feels special sometimes, because it's "cool" and societally edgy, or because the BDSM'er has been repressing the desires for so long.   But mental and physical health are more fundamental.

The answer to the OP's question would be the same if he asked: When does fencing become unhealthy? or, When does dating become unhealthy? , or, When does your vanilla marriage become unhealthy? 

Answer: When the interaction between the two people becomes addictive, destructive, physically debilitating.


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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:19:58 PM   
pagankinktress


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		CT, thank you for being so brave to share something so personal and potentially opening yourself up like this.  It really does become about individual mileage, I think. 

I PM'd you on the other side. :)

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:24:09 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhatUrSeeking

I began my journey with BDSM with the belief that nothing is morally wrong or destructive to the person as long as all parties mutually consent to the behavior. In general this is true when it comes to sex.


I agree with this that it is generally true.  However, it's not an absolute.

I also believe that this is a moral question as well.  or at least it speaks of our own individual values and morals.

For myself.. it is in not enough that all parties mutually consent to the behavior... or that all parties must enjoy it as well.  For me.. the more important question is the person better or worse for the experience. 

Regardless if they consented to it.. or even enjoyed .. there are something that we do that will be worse because of it...  But then it becomes trade off.. is the pleasure of the doing worth the damage that is endured.  People smoke, People do drugs, People eat poorly..... They consent to these things... they even enjoy these things at some point.  So... individuals we have to answer the question with regards to is the pleasure worth the damage.

One also needs to consider the immediate consequences vrs long-term consequences.  Today.. not alot of damage doing drug A... but tomorrow the Damage esculates.

Lastly, Does the doing of the act.... inhibit our ability to stop doing the act when we see the negative consequences as being excessive to the pleasure enjoyed.  Hell.. can we even properly assess the consequences.  Drugs are good example of an act that hinders our judgement and does have progessively worse effects over time.  So... when we assess a situation.. is it in the Now... or is it in the Future.

These are difficult questions... and I am not so sure their is a universal answer that we can put out their.  However, I do know what is appropriate for me and I will not associate or develop relationships with people that fall beyond what I consider to be healthy.  I am not one to enjoy train wrecks... in the Now or in the Future.


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:24:32 PM   
L8bloomer


Posts: 480
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: Your imagination
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161
...
The case you described is beyond insane to me, So yea I think it was very unhealthy...but nothing to do with 'this lifestyle'



I think laura2161 hit the nail on the head here. I don't think the behaviour is a manifestation of BDSM. Rather, these two disturbed individuals would have had these predilictions regardless of whether or not they associated themselves with BDSM. It seems anything that isn't vanilla is classified as BDSM and I don't think that's fair. There is the saying of "safe, sane and consensual". Clearly these individuals are not sane. And I pretty much agree with your newly revised definition of anything goes as long as it is between two consenting adults and doesn't cause permanent mental or physical harm.


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:26:34 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
ok so i guess ill share, even though i am scared too, because i dont really want to be judged....

That took a lot of guts.

Think of it like tattoos.  I know quite a few people who were gangbangers when younger, and now wish they didn't have tattoos in visible locations.  They're not ashamed of who they were -- ashamed of some things they did, maybe, but hell, so am I.  But it's an economic problem to have visible tats when applying for jobs.  There are some decisions that are irreversible.

If you're making an irreversible decision to achieve a high-of-the-moment for the person you are now, you are forever altering the options the future you will have available to her.  That might not be fair to future-Amy -- and, frankly, now-Amy isn't in a position to evaluate that objectively.

If that is a kink you choose to explore, I would say it is critical for you to have friends who will give you unvarnished opinions.  You need input from people who have loyalty to both present- and future-Amy, so you don't base your decisions solely on what you feel and see right now.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:34:33 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I think that there are ways that it can be psychologically unhealthy for one partner or both, as in a vanilla relationship, when one becomes almost obsessed with wanting to please the other.  This could happen to either the top or the bottom since both are looking out for the other's needs to some extent, but probably is most likely to happen to the bottom.

It is not unusual for their to be double standards in a BDSM relationship.  An example is when the top is allowed to have more than one sub but the bottom is to stay monogamous.  The relationship may not be 24/7 but the top may encourage the bottom to think of them and their needs 24/7.  It is not uncommon for one of the two to be more sexually fulfilled than the other.  There are times when the bottom is allowed to email but not to chat on Yahoo without invitation, or other communication restrictions.  While the bottom is expected to be open and honest about everything tops often keep certain things inside, and there are times when an unknown stress in the top gets relayed through to the sub and feels like punishment since they don't know what's going on.  If you wrap up a bunch of things like this, and then have a bottom without enough of a life or a good enough self esteem, it can become a snowball rolling downhill leaving the sub feeling needy and unappreciated.  If they are not mentally healthy they can begin to feel depressed, undeserving of "fair" treatment, and could even become suicidal. 

We are each responsible to care for ourselves, but there are times when it is difficult to balance our own needs against the perceived needs of another.  BDSM is seen by outsiders as something physical, but most of them don't take into account the psychological and emotional sides of it.  As wonderful as the ideals of complete trust and open communication are, there are times when either can weaken.  (I've seen trust in relationship be more like waves coming in than a straight line, and communication is known for having breakdowns from time to time.  Even when trying to express yourself openly you may not get your point across well.)  I know that I use these boards as a sanity check sometimes; a way to see what others are thinking and feeling.  While I would never run into some problems others hit close to home.  I would hope that if someone feels that their relationship may be becoming emotionally dangerous that they would reach out to someone - even if this is the only place they can turn.


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:36:29 PM   
wwwkevinww


Posts: 276
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline 		I have a strong dislike for professionals who are clueless....this includes most of psychologists and psychiatrists......

What exactly does a psychiatrist know about a person, not alot, they know a little and prescribe them drugs (drug pushers) based on the little they know......usually within 10 minutes of meeting someone they are ready to start filling out prescriptions.....

With some decent acting, you can get all sorts of drugs legally by a psychiatrist.....most psychiatrists wouldn't know the difference between an act and reality if it smacked them upside the head.....

Sorry, there is a ton of fucked up shit going on in the world.  Not all of it falls under the bounds of BDSM.
Just because people are into cannabalism and other fucked up shit, doesn't make it a SSC BDSM relationship.  Two people can agree about anything, doesn't mean its sane or appropriate....

I might joke around about cannabalism, but that is what it is to me, a joke....I might eat Fred because I need to survive, but trust me, I'd rather eat a rat than Fred.......

Not being able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality in and of itself doesn't mean your going to do totally fucked up shit either....There are alot of Crazy people out there who don't kill/mutilate others....

Usually when it involves dead people and/or emotional/mental/physical abuse then its generally unhealthy.  Any piercing/tattoo-ing is generally unhealthy also.

BDSM as a whole is pretty unhealthy.  Sex isn't that healthy.  Why do people need to drink alcohol before they are stupid enough to have sex at all with a stranger.....

Hell, everyone should just walk around in body condoms, and the world would be a safer place.....Of course, opening doors would be a problem, but if you cut slits for your hands you'd defeat the entire purpose of the safety of the body condom's design....

Watch out, the body condom police will see you damaged your body condom and arrest you for being "unsafe".

Society as a whole has no clue where the line should be, and I basically know the world is fucked up, and prefer to keep all the sane but fucked up people out there (most people) at arms length.....

If you tell me how rational you are, that is more reason to keep you at arms length, I don't want to have my genitalia laying on the side of the road....because my spouse was mad about something.....

This whole thread reminds me of Hell's Kitchen, where the dude cut off his own finger (the tip) and it was actually in the food.......the food wasn't served to customers, but chef ramzie did try each dish.....

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/28/2008 3:39:38 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: L8bloomer

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161
...
The case you described is beyond insane to me, So yea I think it was very unhealthy...but nothing to do with 'this lifestyle'



I think laura2161 hit the nail on the head here. I don't think the behaviour is a manifestation of BDSM. Rather, these two disturbed individuals would have had these predilictions regardless of whether or not they associated themselves with BDSM. It seems anything that isn't vanilla is classified as BDSM and I don't think that's fair. There is the saying of "safe, sane and consensual". Clearly these individuals are not sane. And I pretty much agree with your newly revised definition of anything goes as long as it is between two consenting adults and doesn't cause permanent mental or physical harm.



not true you guys....yes it does not have to be part of the d/s lifestyle, but if the two were engagin in power exchange it does become so and we cant burry our head in the sand about that...


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Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to L8bloomer)
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