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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/30/2008 7:45:45 PM   
Leatherist


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It wasn't about you.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/30/2008 8:11:05 PM   
LadyPact


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I went back and read the entire thread.  (No jokes about Me really being a maso.)

No where in the entire thread did any of those of the opinion that a slave must have/had an owner ever said that one title was better than the other.   In fact, a couple of us (most notably Eric) have even said that it wasn't about anyone thinking that a certain type of dynamic title is higher than the other.

Just because some of us have certain definitions that work for us, doesn't mean we see anyone as less than, or think others are second class.  I'm happy for anyone getting to have any part of this lifestyle that they chose to have.  There are a lot of folks out there who won't, so why shouldn't we be happy for those that do?

I'd be more than happy to turn the question around.  If someone was seeking a Master/Mistress, wouldn't a potential want to know what qualifies them as such?
quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

So...i had to skip a few pages of the semantic war and i am wondering...
 
have we defined "true sex slave" yet?
 
 Also...why so much disgust for the "bedroom submissive"...
 
And what about people that just love kinky sex...are they 2nd class posters?
 
Why does everything here have to be one upmanship? 
 
Why do so many desire to squeeze into a label and defend it for 11 pages?
 

 
 
 
 


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/30/2008 8:41:40 PM   
chamberqueen


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There are fake slaves just like there are fake Doms.  I am a slave but I don't have a long list of what I'm good at in my profile.  I am owned and very happy with my Master.  I feel no need to brag about the many things I do well.  I get enough "junk" email as it is - I don't need even more people wishing that I was theirs.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 5:22:43 AM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I went back and read the entire thread.  (No jokes about Me really being a maso.)

No where in the entire thread did any of those of the opinion that a slave must have/had an owner ever said that one title was better than the other.   In fact, a couple of us (most notably Eric) have even said that it wasn't about anyone thinking that a certain type of dynamic title is higher than the other.

Just because some of us have certain definitions that work for us, doesn't mean we see anyone as less than, or think others are second class.  I'm happy for anyone getting to have any part of this lifestyle that they chose to have.  There are a lot of folks out there who won't, so why shouldn't we be happy for those that do?

I'd be more than happy to turn the question around.  If someone was seeking a Master/Mistress, wouldn't a potential want to know what qualifies them as such?
quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

So...i had to skip a few pages of the semantic war and i am wondering...
 
have we defined "true sex slave" yet?
 
 Also...why so much disgust for the "bedroom submissive"...
 
And what about people that just love kinky sex...are they 2nd class posters?
 
Why does everything here have to be one upmanship? 
 
Why do so many desire to squeeze into a label and defend it for 11 pages?
 

 
 
 
 



Ok LP, you stole my thunder this time... we really have to stop thinking alike, you know?
 
I didn't see where anyone displayed "disgust" about a bedroom submissive and to my knowledge no one said people just interested in kinky sex were second class posters. No one is better or lower depending on the title they have chosen for themselves. Most likely the disgust comes from people being tired of others stating they are one thing when in reality they aren't even close to that. It's no different then me, being a short white woman with red hair, claiming to be a tall hispanic woman with black hair... it would be obvious that I'm not being realistic. And if I persisted in telling people that they would eventually just be disgusted with my attempt to mislead them as well as my apparent disregard of their intelligence or life experiences. If someone only wants to be a bedroom submissive then go for it, be loud and proud, the same for those that just want kinky sex... that's awesome. It isn't bad, it isn't a lower "station", it's just different, but at least be honest about it. It would make finding partners soooo much easier.
 
Jewel

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:32:04 AM   
dawntreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I went back and read the entire thread.  (No jokes about Me really being a maso.)

No where in the entire thread did any of those of the opinion that a slave must have/had an owner ever said that one title was better than the other.   In fact, a couple of us (most notably Eric) have even said that it wasn't about anyone thinking that a certain type of dynamic title is higher than the other.

Just because some of us have certain definitions that work for us, doesn't mean we see anyone as less than, or think others are second class.  I'm happy for anyone getting to have any part of this lifestyle that they chose to have.  There are a lot of folks out there who won't, so why shouldn't we be happy for those that do?

I'd be more than happy to turn the question around.  If someone was seeking a Master/Mistress, wouldn't a potential want to know what qualifies them as such?
quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

So...i had to skip a few pages of the semantic war and i am wondering...

have we defined "true sex slave" yet?

Also...why so much disgust for the "bedroom submissive"...

And what about people that just love kinky sex...are they 2nd class posters?

Why does everything here have to be one upmanship? 

Why do so many desire to squeeze into a label and defend it for 11 pages?









Ok LP, you stole my thunder this time... we really have to stop thinking alike, you know?
 
I didn't see where anyone displayed "disgust" about a bedroom submissive and to my knowledge no one said people just interested in kinky sex were second class posters. No one is better or lower depending on the title they have chosen for themselves. Most likely the disgust comes from people being tired of others stating they are one thing when in reality they aren't even close to that. It's no different then me, being a short white woman with red hair, claiming to be a tall hispanic woman with black hair... it would be obvious that I'm not being realistic. And if I persisted in telling people that they would eventually just be disgusted with my attempt to mislead them as well as my apparent disregard of their intelligence or life experiences. If someone only wants to be a bedroom submissive then go for it, be loud and proud, the same for those that just want kinky sex... that's awesome. It isn't bad, it isn't a lower "station", it's just different, but at least be honest about it. It would make finding partners soooo much easier.
 
Jewel
Thankyou Ladies for your replies :-) You both are among some of the wiser and saner voices here and i appreciate your responses.
 
Perhaps in this particular thread, some of my questions were not touched on but they have come up in others of this same or similar topic. The definitions the two of you have give for "slave" mirror my own, pure and simple. It is about ownership - nothing more. What happens in the dynamic is between Master and slave... limits/no limits - who gives a fuck :-)
 
However in my brief 2 years in this realm, i have seen so much "romancing the slave lable" both online and off. Like you , Shifted, i would just like people to be proud of what they are and honest...  When i listened to potential Doms tell me i was a slave, i tried to fit into that...never worked out~
When i listened to myself and stopped trying to fit an acceptable lable and/or someone else's definiton of what i should be - i have attracted incredible partners.
 
Obviously, my rhetorical rants are not directed at either of you...but their are others with whom it will hit a nerve - hopefully, unless the ubar Master/slave goggles they have purchased on E-Bay keep them from seeing past their own fabricated reality~

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:45:46 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

There are fake slaves just like there are fake Doms.


Again a matter of personal opinion i would think.
Who decides who is fake and who is twue?

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:49:31 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I have to wonder at times. People who post all about how much a slave they are in a profile.

But nothing about any skills they have?

Is it all about playing then?

What does it matter? Unless and until she is owned, she is not a slave.




so if she is not a slave until she is owned, is he not a master until he owns?



Yup.

I can rightfully claim the title of "Master" in the area of ancient history because I earned that at an accredited institution. Otherwise it's just a title that makes me feel "special" but has no real value in my opinion.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:51:16 AM   
LaTigresse


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In all honesty I think it just comes down to comunication......if we define what we feel being a master/mistress or submissive/slave means to us, AND what we want in our prospective other........it really should not matter what anyone else feels the definitions are.

The age old human problem......lack of communication, poor communication, arrogantly assuming our thoughts and opinions are universal...... probably causes 99% of the worlds problems.

At least that's my thought on the matter........so far it's worked pretty damned well.


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:52:02 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel



quote:

so if she is not a slave until she is owned, is he not a master until he owns?


That is correct sirsholly. Just like I wasn't a Mrs. until I was married. It's a title. Ok, in my own opinion...

Jewel


I do not want to hijack here...and if that is what i am doing please ignore this..

I understand where ShiftedJewel is coming from...but i have always thought of subs/slaves/masters/doms as born...not made. I think of it in the same way as sexuality. I was born a heterosexual...so does this mean i am not a heterosexual until i am having sex?



Ah, but sexuality is a matter of who/what you are attracted to, not a matter of what you do even.

I think being submissive or masochistic, being dominant or sadistic, are more innate parts of our personality... the titles refer to the roles we take on to express those parts of us. For me a role title has very little to no value if it is not recognized by others, in this case at least your partner who has a complementary role.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:56:21 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

arrogantly assuming our thoughts and opinions are universal...... probably causes 99% of the worlds problems.

100% agree with this.
And we all know what happens when we ASSUME.


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 7:39:05 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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~Fast Reply to the ? of skills~

Hmmm... the skills... the skills.... See, I believe that if I accept a servant who has no skills, that's my choice. What I choose to call that person is defined by my preferences (which is as it should be -- the person making the rules should have the right to choose what they call their dynamic). If the person I select has no skills, but matches what I'm looking for in philosophical basis, interests, etc., then I think that it is -my- responsibility to make sure that the person is trained in the skills I need. It doesn't change what they are in relationship to myself or my Darling, regardless of what skills they bring to the table. On that same note, just because someone comes with a basket full of skills, that doesn't mean that xhe's going to be treated any differently in our household -- as a newcomer, xhe'll still be subject to the same scrutiny and proving period as any other servant -- and we'll -still- hold a bias towards our proven servants if a question comes up about hir behavior, demeanor, or work ethic.

I don't necessarily think that having a certain skill-set determines what submissive role the individual is capable of in a dynamic. I'm more interested in whether or not they will obey when given an instruction, and whether or not they will do their very best to please me -- or to give me a damned good reason why my pleasure is not going to be met... and I mean damned good for -me-... it really doesn't matter that much to me whether it's a damned good reason for -them-... once they're in the dynamic where I manage life, it's up to me whether or not someone else's reason for having things X way is going to fly (ok, I'll concede that my Darling has a say in whether or not something flies... but she's even more stubborn than I am, so lotsa luck with playing -that- hand.)

I guess my point is that it isn't the skills, or the title, or the accolades from former dominants or submissives that determines whether someone is suitable to wear a collar in our household. I will concede that it is a mindset that makes the difference between whether a person is a good 'servant' (because that's what we call them) or is full of bull-pucky.

I will also say, notwithstanding and because our household really doesn't mind training up servants who don't have experience, that the fantasy is often a lot different than reality, and someone with only the experience of what they've read on the boards or in a fantasy book, and who has no experience at living the reality, may or may not be able to 'cut it' when they're at a point where they're asked to live in complete submission to another person. A good 2/3 of the people we've interviewed and accepted in good faith, without experience, have decided that they -really- don't want to live under the strictures of full-time D/s. The biggest thing that we hear is "I didn't know it was going to be like -this-."

Ok, so maybe someone doesn't want a person who has never lived in a D/s relationship or M/s relationship before... that's fine. If it isn't right out there in the profile, and the person sounds good otherwise, that makes a good question to ask.

As far as semantics... I have my own semantic ideosyncracies. They don't mean squat to the people who are internally validated in their own semantic patterns. At the same time, whether someone disagrees with me or not, I'm still going to use my preferred terminology. Heck, someone had to start somewhere, right?

Calla Firestorm


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 7:56:07 AM   
Leatherist


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I think a lot of people granting themselves titles is about seeking validation, or just ego fluffing.

And making it mean any damn thing you want is just a lazy way of copping out of meeting the expectations a more rigid standard would demand.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 7:58:42 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

After my post yesterday, I went back through my books...Devon & Miller, Wiseman, Lizst, Bannon and, because of what is written there, I thought back to words I've read from others on here about master/slave relationships...Mercnbeth come to mind but there are others...and that led to an alteration of the definition landscape in my mind. 


It's all about external validation through other people. It seems Hegel was right. "Whether it's Screw The Roses, Give Me The Thorns", a Wikipedia article, or a pompous Internet identity trying to get others to conform via the peer pressure cry of "this is how all the real people do it", each one just represents a perspective taken from a group of people, either large or small and people appeal to such definitions for security in their own identity.

I think it's all sad, because the only validation one should need in an intimate relationship is from the other person in the relationship or even better, just flat out self validation. I don't need anyone to tell me I am dominant, because my security in that identity stems from what I KNOW internally about myself.

If your appealing to sources beyond yourself or your partner for validation, then your just another porcelain doll, cut and crafted by another society of people trying to tell you who you are and how to live your life.

What's even sadder is when your seeking validation from people who's sole reason of telling you what you are is an egocentric one of attempting to posture themselves as being "better" than you or "more elite".

Fuck em.


Seeking of validation or an identity definition from others is not necessarily an exercise in ego-building though, MR.  As noted, I went to school to become a doctor.  I took a National Board Examination while in school and a State Board Examination after graduation and passed both, giving me the license that granted me the privilege of opening a practice in this state.  Without having done any of those things, I could have read all the books and learned all the lingo and practiced all the techniques and would have been...in my own mind...a doctor.  But the state and the public at large would have disagreed with me, with disastrous consequences for me.

I too know that I have a dominant nature and that I am a dominant.  As I said in my post above and have said in posts elsewhere in the time I have been on here, what matters in the long run is what is decided between you and your partner.  If what you build your D/s relationship on is a form of dominance and submission that is so far removed from what the majority of people do but it works for you, great.  And if you can always have the attitude of "fuck em" when those people state that you are wrong, then I guess hooray for you.  I don't know whether it is the person in me who wanted to be a sniper or the person in me who wanted to ride motorcycles without getting myself killed or the person in me who wanted to be a doctor or the person who enjoys learning for the sake of learning but when I came into this, I knew little to nothing of how D/s relationships were structured.  So I set about learning...by speaking with others, by joining a site similar to collarme and yes, by reading the "dreaded" (in some quarters) books that are out there.  Not for validation of myself and my character but to learn how to do it and find my niche. 

I find it amusing that anyone who does it in the way I do...or that anyone who holds a more rigid interpretation of what a "dominant" or a "slave" or a "submissive" is or does is automatically judged to be imposing that view on everyone else before they open their mouth to prove that is or is NOT their intent.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 5:03:03 PM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

Just because some of us have certain definitions that work for us, doesn't mean we see anyone as less than, or think others are second class. I'm happy for anyone getting to have any part of this lifestyle that they chose to have. There are a lot of folks out there who won't, so why shouldn't we be happy for those that do?

Actually, I've seen this quite a bit in social situations in groups that are just "meet and beat" type organizations (as opposed to D/s-M/s discussion groups, etc). For some reason, there's this strange pecking order among bottom type people (which includes ALL variations of those who don't Top), particularly female, who for some reason think that if they tout themselves as "Slaves" rather than "Submissives" it means they are better/more serious/higher quality/insert obsurdity here. I don't subscribe to it and frankly I've always felt that was a dead give away for someone who clearly didn't get it, but  unfortunately my real time experience has been that I've seen it a lot.

I suppose it's due to the fact that we exist in a relatively small fish bowl, and it's kind of finite as opposed to the relative plethora of choices in the Vanilla world. Given the fact that there are only so many Tops and Bottoms in any given place, I've seen people get fiercely competitive. Using the Slave/Sub argument is only one of the things that will rear its ugly head.

PL


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 5:39:02 PM   
dawntreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

...particularly female, who for some reason think that if they tout themselves as "Slaves" rather than "Submissives" it means they are better/more serious/higher quality/insert obsurdity here.

PL



EXACTLY my point! And extend it to the Tops who fuel this thinking as well~
 
i am not pointing fingers at anyone on the forum, just stating that this does exist and has been demonstrated in this particular thread in numerous ways...
 
What a fantasy it must be to have another human to do with completely as you wish, sexually or otherwise... i would think it would rank as high as girl on girl sex/threesomes for the majority of men on this planet~
 
It truly is about ego~
 
...and yes, i recognize my own ego prompted me to post this diatribe~

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 5:54:14 PM   
metalmiss


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i've come into this -just a little- late i know.. So to save me reading the whole 12 pages right now.. Here's a quick response..

Yes i am a slave, yes it says so on my profile.. As i am very happily owned, i consider my skills and attributes to be the business of my Master and nobody else. my profile is about who i am and my interests in and around the scene.. It's in context with the site it is hosted on, i don't think thats probably very suprising really.

All about playing? Nah.. and if it was i would find it incredibly dull. For me being a slave is about making Him happy, pleasing Him. (No suprise there either then)
Its about making His coffee, keeping His home as He likes it, polishing His boots, cooking His tea of an evening, living my life within His well placed boundaries & taking my pleasure from being a girl He can be proud of.
No i don't spend my whole life naked, on my knees or in bondage. And i would hazard a guess that the fantasists out there would find that to be pale in comparison to their daydreaming.. But i'm afraid i live in the real world.. Sorry.


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:39:56 PM   
barelynangel


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The only "skill" i have in being a slave to a Man is my reaction of slave to Men which in turn will give them what they need to master and enslave me.  That's all to me a woman pretty much needs.  Everything else is semantics of the individual Man and his expectations and standards which he will demand i reach to achieve the level wherein my value to him is greater than his cost in keeping me.  Slaves are not ultra submissives or better submissives or even the same concept as submissives are. They are two different and distinct entities that both exist separately based on their own value in a woman's fulfillment of needs and many times while the conclusions may seem the same in observation the fundemental make up of the relationship is usually very different in the journey and motivations of achieving the value the woman is to a Man. If a person is eager to say one is better than the other, then to me that person has missed the concept that creates the value to Men in each.  There are actually some very dominant personalities who thrive in slavery to a Man but by observing them you would never know they are a dominant personality.  Skills, positions, protocols, the love of serving others or pleasing others do not a slave make. 

edited to add, and until a Man compelled this reaction from me and used it to master and enslave me a long time ago, i had no clue this "skill" existed.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/31/2008 6:46:04 PM >


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 6:50:23 PM   
Leatherist


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That may work for you angel-but not just any willing slave will do for just any man.

Some of us seek someone more specific than that.

In Gorean terms, it might be the difference between a "pot girl" (kitchen pot washing slave) and a Three gold piece pleasure slave,or one trained as a household physician, or other higher level skill. So skills DO matter. Even in things like Gor.

And the pot girl is one, because she lacked the ability to be trained to be the other.

OR the owner either didn't care, or had other uses for her.

The pot girl's value is three coppers.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 7/31/2008 7:20:13 PM >


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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 7:04:04 PM   
Leatherist


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double post, oops.

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RE: So, you are a "slave" - 7/31/2008 7:29:59 PM   
barelynangel


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Leatherist you have completely missed what i was saying and i am not surprised and i guess you missed the big "I"'s in my post.  I would recommend you not try and utilize Gorean  to make a point when you don't understand it  nor is it relevant to the thread i believe.  If it was, i apologize.

I guess you also missed the point of anything beyond a woman's ability to react as slave so the Man will be capable of mastering her and enslaving her
quote:

Everything else is semantics of the individual Man and his expectations and standards
.  I never said potential wasn't important, i guess i thought any reasonable person would see the quoted sentence and deduce that the individual Man would inspect a woman as to her potential to be of value to him.  BUT only the individual MAN knows that and if he is interested in a woman who doesn't list her skills and that is important to him well then as a Man who may wish to master her it would be wise for him to inspect all of her to see if she has the potential to be of value to her.  Or i guess i am just use to Men who don't need a girl to list skills such as i am a great cook or i've had Men nickname me dirt devil.  Skillls do not MAKE a slave, and so to me if a Man wishes to know something specific, being a Man who wants to own a slave i don't think he would be shy in asking specific questions.  Also when you start listing things there is a huge potential for misunderstandings and conclusions drawn and what women who wanted to be a slave to a Man would risk such a thing when she could speak to him instead?  If the profile is interesting enough, a woman doesn't need a list of skills to draw conversation from Men who may wish to see her potential.

I am perplexed as to why you brought up Gor?  If you want to discuss fictional labels used on Gor i am afraid you will have to find someone else to do so  I have read the thread and i did not see any indication that this thread is about discussing Gorean or any other "type" of slavery or identification of people, but the generality of your question as to why many slaves probably don't list skills for the nature of slavery to me even non-Gorean Men wouldn't  need it listed for they are capable of inspecting the girl for her potential value to him on his own.  Be he Gorean or not.  It's not a philosophy determined concept.  If you want to bait someone, i am afraid you will find yourself without someone to play with.  I am not impressed.

angel


< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/31/2008 7:33:46 PM >


_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Leatherist)
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