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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 9:45:21 AM

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quote:

locked and then you have to phone the owner to ask for the keys?
or you have to ask on your public profile because he refuses all contact?
or refuses to accept you just want to take the damn thing off because it was meaningless in the first place once they got the sex????
or they thought they had collared you for life and therefore you would take any sadistic crap?

I've been faced with these and similar questions.

I don't have any answers.

At first I thought it was important to know the why's and wherefores, then I got bored thinking about it and, the more I thought about it, the more it seemed one answer was as good as the other. Fungible. Like factory workers on an assembly line. Or, submissives.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 8/6/2008 9:51:51 AM >

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 9:50:18 AM

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quote:

I've promised myself that, when My Lord is gone, I'm spending at least a year alone. I'm going to explore loneliness for a while, or maybe aloneness would be better, and see if I've learned to like my own company yet.

Wise words...on many levels. I call it learning to look into that mirror of self reflection and liking what you see.

(in reply to StormsSlave)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 10:27:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidS8ist

It would help, in my opinion, if "dominant" and "submissive" returned to their adjectival meaning, and people then determined for themselves whether the other person was, in their perception, dominant or submissive to them.

This has made me think. however: there is a 'before' and an 'after' the collar. That is also a citical point in time. I'm wondering if i am making myself understood. The process has so often felt 'in reverse'...that the care, and the wooing and the mastery has come BEFORE the collar. A little like a marriage certificate (in my humble experience....and that's all I have to go on) once a collar is in place there's less care, less mercy and a great deal more assumptive behaviour/ It's like the collar itself makes the person dominant or makes the persom submissive.
Almost like a fashion item or a designer label the collar itself accrues some other qualities upon the giver and the receiver.

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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
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(in reply to DavidS8ist)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 10:39:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

but it goes way deeper than that - its the whole emotional and psychological thing of submission and to be made to feel so wanted and precious that they want to clap you in irons and make them theirs - its that part we have to protect ourselves from until enough time has lapsed that we really can see it in their eyes and feel it tangibly.

Are you talking about compassion here? Like trying to see ourselves as others see us?
OK: if i look into a mirror at the moment, today (not yesterday even) but today i see a proud and whole woman, with an open heart who treasures absolute truth above all else. Now i also feel that there is no such thing as the truth and what i mean by that absolute truth is truth that is a shared phenomena.
OK: so this is the part where the drama sharks can xome and snap up the pieces however.....
I can this time hold a mirror up to myself and say I followed faultlessly in as deep a service as I could. This was before and after my collar. But their was an omission and a lie and a total withdrawal and lack of caring after the collar,,,,no one there to service.
Maybe it was emotional sadism and I have changed and it was beyond any kind of sadism i have encounted emotionally.
But if i look deeper: i expect to serve but this does ot mean that I expect NOTHING. It means that iI expect that SOMEONE to serve and that their withdrawal simply means withdrawak into their own fears/triggers/inconsistencies and that means hey? hold on a moment.......withdraw far enough and I can't even service your needs.
Did that make sense lally?

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 10:46:05 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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The rush to the collar is pretty much the same as the rush to the alter and the exchange of wedding bands. There are people who need a wedding ring or a collar to affirm who they are and that they are "worthy" of being in a relationship with someone, whether or not they have their sh*t together enough to be able to manage an intimate relationship with someone else. They get the collar around their neck (or put the collar around a neck) and suddenly the world glows with good will -- and then some time passes. Annoying habits crop up and nobody wants to deal with them -- they sweep their issues under the carpet until they have a Mayan temple of issues in the middle of the living room, and instead of entering the mess and dealing with it, they walk around it, in a space that is figuratively getting progressively smaller by the minute. Not long after this, they start feeling trapped by all the things they -didn't- expect that came along with this relationship... and they already have the pattern in place. Instead of dealing with it, they either run away or push the other person away so that the irritation of the relationship stops.

It isn't pretty, but until we start seeing ourselves differently, and let go of our addiction to people and dramas to reinforce our self-image and our internal validation, we're going to keep getting into relationships that don't work. For those who have stepped off the merry-go-round and dug out their temple and kept what was worthwhile and ditched the rest, they can actually welcome someone into their space without crowding the other person, feeling crowded themselves, or hiding from the mess. Our culture reinforces that tendency to keep moving from thing to thing -- but in the end it is up to the individual to get his or her own sh*t together and decide to invest themselves in growing healthy relationships.

Calla Firestorm

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 10:55:59 AM

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Within a quick search I can see that you've had three different masters, at least, within a year. You are in a revolving door of collars and are the last person that probably should be giving advice about how to have successful, collared relationships. Perhaps people should do the exact opposite of what you write.
Where's that thread on melodrama.....
I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe you should take a break from relationships for a bit.

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 10:59:31 AM

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I suppose I'm one of those that accepted a collar too fast by conventional wisdom of the boards.

I'd been on here for a just a bit when I sent Him a message and, lucky for me, He responded. He, on the other hand, had been on CM for quite a while and was more experienced in D/s with other subs (and/or possible subs). No, He was not the first one that I sent a message to nor was He the only one (at least at the beginning) that I corresponded with.

We spent time a lot of time (multiple daily IMs, emails, and phone calls) discussing what each of us wanted and expected. When we were unclear what the other meant, we asked for clarification. We talked openly about ourselves and what each of us were looking for in a partner (and, yes, from the beginning we both looked upon this as a partnership with different paths to follow.) Our discussions were sometimes about D/s, sometimes about life in general, and sometimes about nothing important at all. We met in person about a month, give or take, after the first correspondence. And, honestly, I knew by the end of dinner that He was the man I wanted to submit to.

So, I could have guarded myself but, in my case, what would have been the point? I knew He was my Sir from the first. (Ok, I knew before that but was trying to restrain myself.) But--and this is what cemented my conviction that I would submit to Him--He allowed me to make the decision to go farther. He put the ball in my hands and left me with the choice to submit to Him. I called Him the following day and we've been together since then. Sure we are still learning about each other and that part is a tremendous amount of fun...well, ok, not everything can be classified as 'fun' but I can live with that.

Bottom line? Yes, sometimes that collar does happen fast but, just because it's fast, doesn't preclude it from being real..

(in reply to StormsSlave)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 12:02:00 PM

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quote:

OK: if i look into a mirror at the moment, today (not yesterday even) but today i see a proud and whole woman, with an open heart who treasures absolute truth above all else.

What fucking "absolute truth"? The only thing you treasure is your own delusions.

quote:

Now i also feel that there is no such thing as the truth and what i mean by that absolute truth is truth that is a shared phenomena.

Clearly it wasn't shared! You fooled yourself into ignoring everything but whatever the fuck it was you wanted to see. He saw you as a cheap and easy fuck and you pretended he didn't.

quote:

I can this time hold a mirror up to myself and say I followed faultlessly in as deep a service as I could.

Serve and he will CUM is what you got woman. It wasn't whether or not your service was faultless, it was your inability to examine your patterns and learn from them that is at fault.

quote:

But their was an omission and a lie and a total withdrawal and lack of caring after the collar,,,,no one there to service.

And you just keep getting fooled, over and over and over and over again. But NO, that can't be a pattern, that CAN"T be anything YOU choose to participate in...nope, it is all that OTHER person's fault.

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 12:58:55 PM

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Quite simple. Collars are toys and a joke to some people, and something not to be taken very seriously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Thanks lally for the quote above which i changed the words of slightly BUT....
why is the collar offerred so freely and then taken so lightly?

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 2:23:01 PM

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quote:

original DavidS8dist
But the others? Dropping someone like a stone is just cold. And cowardly. And there's no defense for it because there's no defense offered. Why do people do it? Myriad reasons: Wife found out, some new pussy caught his attention, some new domly type IM'd her, Mom caught him at the computer...

But most often (not always), the underlying reason is not enough time was taken on discovery. We need to stop worrying about "the collar". If the person is right, the collar won't matter. And if the person is wrong, all the collars in the world won't fix it.

Reading the responses thus far, and especially some of the points you have mentioned have helped clarify for me the answer to something that i had been seking to define for myself for a long time and that is: what qualifies 'experience' within an s-type?
What i man is that it's more evidential what would qualify experience in a D-type; the number of whips, the amount of equipment, the way in which the equipment is used, the degree of after-care given, the consistency in shaping/punishment/reward...and many other things but in a Dtype and indeed in mastery experience can be seen to be evidential.
In an s-tyoe and especially in slavery this is not so easy to 'show'...as how does one give evidenvce of how to receive, how to serve? Well experience can be defined as 'been here before'. For example in times when there is a sudden 'drop' then an experienced s-type will be prepared or more prepared to know the cycle and to be able to -self-elevate and fix it.
In moments of loss of control on behalf odf the D-type and experienced s-type is able to see: oh look, abuse/anger/unwarranted, unplayful and unprecedented humiliation.
Those weak links in mastery are those very elements of the collar which make the collar itself unsafe. An s-type does not so much demand release from the physical collar as ask for manifestation of a collar which fell apart right before her/his eyes anyway. The master stopped leading, the master stopped having self-control, the master lied.
That is what experience as as a submissive/slave brings.
You can build in clauses of giving up limits/giving up rights at any point during a d/s relationship: at the beginning, in the middle, after a few weeks or many years. It makes no difference. being able to distinguish use from abuse based on experience is a precious commodity indeed and in my manual warrants self-release.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/6/2008 2:25:03 PM >

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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 2:30:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

OK: if i look into a mirror at the moment, today (not yesterday even) but today i see a proud and whole woman, with an open heart who treasures absolute truth above all else.

What fucking "absolute truth"? The only thing you treasure is your own delusions.

quote:

Now i also feel that there is no such thing as the truth and what i mean by that absolute truth is truth that is a shared phenomena.

Clearly it wasn't shared! You fooled yourself into ignoring everything but whatever the fuck it was you wanted to see. He saw you as a cheap and easy fuck and you pretended he didn't.

quote:

I can this time hold a mirror up to myself and say I followed faultlessly in as deep a service as I could.

Serve and he will CUM is what you got woman. It wasn't whether or not your service was faultless, it was your inability to examine your patterns and learn from them that is at fault.

quote:

But their was an omission and a lie and a total withdrawal and lack of caring after the collar,,,,no one there to service.

And you just keep getting fooled, over and over and over and over again. But NO, that can't be a pattern, that CAN"T be anything YOU choose to participate in...nope, it is all that OTHER person's fault.

Micahael:
when are you going to stop what you accuse others of doing?
Stop deflecting and projecting, join the human race man it's getting really boring.

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Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 2:33:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Within a quick search I can see that you've had three different masters, at least, within a year. You are in a revolving door of collars and are the last person that probably should be giving advice about how to have successful, collared relationships. Perhaps people should do the exact opposite of what you write.
Where's that thread on melodrama.....
I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe you should take a break from relationships for a bit.

Oh well that was one more collar than there actually was so can you count?

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:19:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

OK: if i look into a mirror at the moment, today (not yesterday even) but today i see a proud and whole woman, with an open heart who treasures absolute truth above all else.

What fucking "absolute truth"? The only thing you treasure is your own delusions.

quote:

Now i also feel that there is no such thing as the truth and what i mean by that absolute truth is truth that is a shared phenomena.

Clearly it wasn't shared! You fooled yourself into ignoring everything but whatever the fuck it was you wanted to see. He saw you as a cheap and easy fuck and you pretended he didn't.

quote:

I can this time hold a mirror up to myself and say I followed faultlessly in as deep a service as I could.

Serve and he will CUM is what you got woman. It wasn't whether or not your service was faultless, it was your inability to examine your patterns and learn from them that is at fault.

quote:

But their was an omission and a lie and a total withdrawal and lack of caring after the collar,,,,no one there to service.

And you just keep getting fooled, over and over and over and over again. But NO, that can't be a pattern, that CAN"T be anything YOU choose to participate in...nope, it is all that OTHER person's fault.

Here we go folks, this is EXACTLY why you should be careful about seeking advice or asking questions of an intimate nature when it comes to what some of us call 'the lifestyle'..

It's very easy, no in fact it's way too easy for people to jump in there and jump on the 'you should have' bandwagon. Very easy to point out mistakes and shortcomings after the event. Why, it's almost as easy as taking sides.

Have I been in the same situation as the OP? No not the same situation, I have never accepted a collar nor have I ever been a slave in any of my relationships, but you know I have been in similar situations.

The way I see it when you start talking in terms of 'Master', 'slave', 'collar' you're playing for the high stakes, you really are. The highest possible stakes. 'This ain't hopscotch you know', here I'm quoting my own play on this exact same subject.

That this all came together too quickly of course is evident, and it's as evident as looking at Mount Everest. But it's also just as evident that two people, both Master and slave took a risk, one in offering the collar and the other in accepting the collar, and it's also clear that neither the risk nor the relationship worked out for whatever reason. All relationships are a risk, each and every single one of them, and you only know the person as much as you've had contact with them, and you can only be as sure of the relationship only as far as the chances you give someone.

Not everything works out in life. In fact when you stop and think about it, and I mean really stop and think about it, not much works out in life. Success is usually outweighed by the failure and the attempts.

The way I see it for this particular spin of the roulette wheel the collar was put forward as the stake and the prize. Was there an element of risk calculation? Yes there was, and this was based on the chemistry, that emotional, psychological and spiritual connection between two people. It was most likely this chemistry which was felt by both, examined by both, and accepted, and the roulette wheel was spun.

If you're not prepared to lose then you have no place in the casino, no place at the racetrack, and you certainly have no place in any sort of relationship. Too bad that the numbers never came up. All of a sudden what appeared to be wonderful and 'perfect' wasn't, heaven turned into hell. Was there deceit? Perhaps. Was someone fooled? No doubt. Was there an ulterior motive? Does it matter at this point? You see you got two people involved, two people who have lost (no, there's no winners here, not from what I can see) and two people left to reflect in the cold light of day what they should have done differently.

Now from my perspective this must be a pretty miserable place to be. Even more so when you have people coming in from the outside oh so willing to add to that misery. Why? I don't know, ask them, not me.

There but for the grace of God.. There but for the grace of God.

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 4:30:57 PM

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Prinsexx said: "I'm wondering if i am making myself understood. The process has so often felt 'in reverse'...that the care, and the wooing and the mastery has come BEFORE the collar. A little like a marriage certificate (in my humble experience....and that's all I have to go on) once a collar is in place there's less care, less mercy and a great deal more assumptive behaviour/ It's like the collar itself makes the person dominant or makes the persom submissive."

I don't know you from a hole in the wall but this, in response to what I said, indicates no comprehension of my post. Simply put, are you looking for a collar or are you looking for a person. If the person with whom you're interacting is holding the collar up as the ne plus ultra of interaction, I'll suggest you place your attentions elsewhere. The collar should be, if *anything*, symbolic of what the two of you have achieved, not the representation of what you *want*. If it's a symbol of achievement, it can be anything - a collar, a ring, a McDonald's french fry. If it's what you hope to achieve, it can be gold and meaningless.

Look, if you want care and mercy, make that clear from the get go - hopes and dreams undisclosed during due diligence ain't gonna be in the dynamic. For example, I don't do "after care" 'cause, frankly, I'm the one who did the damned work, and I'm the one who needs a cocktail when it's done. You get whipped, you find a blanket and deal with it. But that's clear from page 1 with anyone with whom I interact. And there've been no miscues because of it. If you want cuddles and coos afterwards, I ain't your guy.

If folks spent less time on "how many floggers do you have" and "who trained you" and "can you put out a match with a signal whip" and a bit more on "What do you think about Kierkegaard?", or other philosophical, artistic, or cultural issues, you'd find a bit more about potential compatibility.

D.
"You had your whole life to prepare for this moment. Why aren't you ready?"
- David Mamet, "Spartan"

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 5:09:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Within a quick search I can see that you've had three different masters, at least, within a year. You are in a revolving door of collars and are the last person that probably should be giving advice about how to have successful, collared relationships. Perhaps people should do the exact opposite of what you write.
Where's that thread on melodrama.....
I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe you should take a break from relationships for a bit.

Oh well that was one more collar than there actually was so can you count?

Well let's see...back in Sept. of 2007 you spoke of being owned four months earlier.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1256015

And then in Feb of 2008 you once again announced a new ownership. In fact you even had a new profile with his name.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1629302

And just a few weeks ago I'm pretty sure that your profile said that you were once again owned by someone. And obviously that didn't work out as apparent by these last few threads.

As you can tell...it was a relaxing, boring day by the pool for me.
Personally, I think you love this type of dysfunction and drama. Doesn't bother me in the least. I find it entertaining and somewhat informative of how not to act in relationships.

edited to add....I'm sure that if I was really bored or had insomnia that I'd be able to dig up at least one more collar for you.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 8/6/2008 5:10:51 PM >

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 5:20:00 PM

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What the fuck Stella?

quote:

Even more so when you have people coming in from the outside oh so willing to add to that misery. Why? I don't know, ask them, not me.

Where do you see me languishing in her misery? Do you see me telling her she is worthless? Do you see me telling her she can't change or that nobody would want her? Where the fuck do you see me trying to make things worse? Why I even give a flying fuck enough to waste time responding I have no idea, but it sure as HELL doesn't come from me wanting her worse off than she is now.

quote:

Not everything works out in life. In fact when you stop and think about it, and I mean really stop and think about it, not much works out in life. Success is usually outweighed by the failure and the attempts.

Very true, but there is risking that a miracle will happen when you jump off a bridge and risking that when you flirt with someone they will flirt back.

Laying on your back on a pool table in a biker bar hoping to fall in love is a risk, but not one most people would take but it COULD result in love, I certainly can't prove otherwise. However, learning to love yourself first, putting your life in order, and demanding that people take the time to prove they are trustworthy before opening yourself up to them is a risk as well but one that has proven over time to be a far more likely path to love.

CLEARLY your mileage may vary.

(in reply to stella41b)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 5:33:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Thanks lally for the quote above which i changed the words of slightly BUT....
why is the collar offerred so freely and then taken so lightly?
what do some think it takes to FULLY submit?
it's easily placed around a neck, and then taken for granted.....
please don't flame...ok reply by saying a collar is easily placed around the neck of someone who easily accepts it ok ok....
but WHAT does a collar mean these days...a bit of velcro???
or
locked and then you have to phone the owner to ask for the keys?
or you have to ask on your public profile because he refuses all contact?
or refuses to accept you just want to take the damn thing off because it was meaningless in the first place once they got the sex????
or they thought they had collared you for life and therefore you would take any sadistic crap?

Not really reading the other responses,

The collar means absolutely nothing. Nada , zip , zero. Neither does a wedding or an engagement ring. Both given AND received. What does have meaning is when people honor their commitments to each other and the trust and caring that comes from within. Not from the symbols that are given on the outside. The symbol is empty when there is nothing substantial behind it to give it meaning. Give someone or accept from someone an empty symbol... and that is all you will have when the relationship is over and the dust clears.

C-D

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 5:34:23 PM

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I've seen this question many, many times, worded in various ways in many, many different forums or chatrooms over the years.

To me the answer is obvious. Taking/giving back a collar is a hell of a lot easier than divorce. There is no paperwork and no lawyers to pay, unless you were also married.

People get divorced everyday. I believe the divorce rate is well over 50% in the US now. It stands to reason then, that a relationship with absolutely no legal binding is a hell of a lot easier to walk away from.

Yes I know .. the bond in a D/s relationship "is stronger than the bond in a vanilla marriage" blah, blah blah. Sounds pretty, looks good written on a napkin, but simply not true. Because marriage and D/s relationships have one common wild card: People.

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 6:56:10 PM

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I'm a total bastard. I do not look at a collar as a romantic place holder that says "hands off till I get tired of dipping my wick."

I see it as meaning someone has made the grade with me, and that I did well enough that she found it worth putting in the time and effort it took to accomplish EARNING it.

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RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it... - 8/6/2008 7:32:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: newone11

I suppose I'm one of those that accepted a collar too fast by conventional wisdom of the boards.

Yes but are you certain there is such a thing as a conventional wisdom of these boards? Just wondering where?..........thought I had wandered into match.com for a moment....ahh conventional bdsm I see, I see........

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(in reply to newone11)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: in it for what they can get out of it and out of it as soon as they’ve been in it…..

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