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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 12:48:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
......the losers. the ones who, under capitalism, inevitably fail so that others can succeed. Now, as i've just made that statement i'm sure you'll want to accuse me of being a Societ sympathiser. You'd be wrong. However, i see society as having more options than simple capitalism or basic socialism. Both systems have flaws, pointing out the flaws of one does not necessarily mean that the pointer-outer prefers the other.

I have agree with you positions in the past of there being other options, yet in this post you suggest that the realities of capitalism is that the reason folks succeed is because of others failing. Why is there not the option that those that have failed will eventually succeed? Or that folks that succeed have done so inspite of those that failed?

......it's partially a transition thing. In a mature capitalist society there are usually some safeguards for the poor. These can be handouts, they can also be subsidies for education......basically the haves know that if you don't help the have-nots then there are serious repercussions.
What happened in Russia was a headlong rush into capitalism without leaving time to build those safety nets. The losers in such a situation tend to be the most vulnerable in society. A sizable proportion of people know or are related to those who lost. We saw, on TV, pictures of elderly women selling the drugs they needed to stay healthy selling them for money for food. They got left behind in the same process that created those incredibly rich Russian oil billionaires. Roman Abramovich (sp?) for instance.
Now Mr A is an interesting example. He's put a lot of his own money into supporting residents of Siberia (i think, might be somewhere else cold and poor in russia). However his actions will need a generation or so to bear fruit......so for now we have people who lost out and are miffed.

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 1:00:49 PM

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Would not some of that blame fall at the feet of the untethered Russian mafia? Who siezed on the power struggle (vacuum) to prey on the "have-nots"?

I do agree that it takes time for a new economic system to build in safety nets. That doesn't mean that the system is flawed, it just means that folks haven't completely adjusted and matured to the system. I suppose there could even be an argument made that some folks prefer being given a stipend as opposed to working for it. I am by no means suggesting that some folks didn't suffer simply because of the change, as there are obviously many that did get hit hard.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 1:01:49 PM

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Our commitment to Georgia hasn't done us any favors.

(in reply to Vendaval)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 1:06:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

mike, do your own research - its more valuable to you that way.

Reality what research would you have me do...the facts are quite clear Russia in the form of the old Soviet Union was a closed and repressive society, that you have suggested some would like to return to...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 1:22:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

...please enlighten me who is longing for those day's

......the losers. the ones who, under capitalism, inevitably fail so that others can succeed. Now, as i've just made that statement i'm sure you'll want to accuse me of being a Societ sympathiser. You'd be wrong. However, i see society as having more options than simple capitalism or basic socialism. Both systems have flaws, pointing out the flaws of one does not necessarily mean that the pointer-outer prefers the other.

What makes you think I would do that philo,America has been practicing social programs for the last 80 years I have no problem with them...I am one of thos people who believe there is certainly a role for goverment to improve the common good for those who might otherwise fall thru the cracks.Think you might have me confused with some of my more right leaning brethren

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 1:51:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I’m wondering why Washington and Europe are so surprised by Russia’s reaction to the missile agreement with Poland.

We almost went to war over Russia’s deployment of missiles in Cuba. In fact we not only demanded their removal but also militarily forced their removal.

I think Russia’s reaction is appropriate, measured, and surprisingly low keyed.

I just don’t understand our administration and their seemingly total lack of common sense. Those missiles could be deployed in a less sensitive location and still be effective.

I don’t believe President Bush when he says they are to protect us all from rogue nations and are purely defensive. I think it is classic cowboy yeehaw Bush diplomacy.

I just hope we… and the world… survive until we can kick his butt and his cronies out of power.

Butch

OMG!!! We have an unbiased, common sense thinker here. I actually hope Poland/Ukraine provokes the Kremlin into an armed show-down. That way I can come here to the message boards and prod all the pathetic, outa shape pro-war crowd into joining up so they can fight the Russians.

- R

_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 1:54:45 PM

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Some of us would be called up automaticly because of our current status as inactive reservists...

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:08:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Some of us would be called up automaticly because of our current status as inactive reservists...

You gota do what you gota do, brother.... But if I was in your shoes and we had some nut in charge poking around, prodding other nations with ultra-aggressive policies/behavior, pushing us to the brink of war - I'd break that contract in a fucking heartbeat, bra. And that's even if I had to wear the zip ties and do some time in the hole for it.... The whole time letting my conscience be my guide....

- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 8/15/2008 2:19:35 PM >

_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:14:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Some of us would be called up automaticly because of our current status as inactive reservists...

You gota do what you gota do, brother.... But if I was in your shoes and we had some nut in charge poking around, prodding other nations with ultra-aggressive policies/behavior, pushing us to the brink of war - I'd break that contract in fucking heartbeat, bra. And that's even if I had to wear the zip ties and do some time in hole for it.... The whole time letting my conscience be my guide....

- R

I am no fan of bushie,as any search of my post's would show...but in this case the nut case doing the prodding is named Putin...and how Thadius or any other reservist getting himself thrown in a hole would help with that is beyond me

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to TheUtopian)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:20:48 PM

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I would have no hesitations on being called back up. Hell if nothing else it extends certain benefits for another 10 years.

I took an oath, I signed on the dotted line. Whether I agree with the conflict or not, does not change any obligation to stand by my word. That would be the same as if Obama takes office in Jan, and decided to call inactive reserves to active duty, I would go.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to TheUtopian)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:24:12 PM

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Never had any doubt of that Thadius...just thought there was confusion over which nut-case was doing the prodding in this instance...Mike

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:25:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Never had any doubt of that Thadius...just thought there was confusion over which nut-case was doing the prodding in this instance...Mike

I am actually impressed with the response of our "nutjob" to this situation.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:30:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Think you might have me confused with some of my more right leaning brethren

...apologies for that.......that's the price of multi-tasking on these fora.......

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:33:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Would not some of that blame fall at the feet of the untethered Russian mafia? Who siezed on the power struggle (vacuum) to prey on the "have-nots"?

...agreed. However i'm not trying to spread any blame around, i'm just trying to answer why some in Russia are nostalgic for the olden days.

quote:

I do agree that it takes time for a new economic system to build in safety nets. That doesn't mean that the system is flawed, it just means that folks haven't completely adjusted and matured to the system. I suppose there could even be an argument made that some folks prefer being given a stipend as opposed to working for it. I am by no means suggesting that some folks didn't suffer simply because of the change, as there are obviously many that did get hit hard.

.....i broadly agree. Though i do think that all, indeed any conceivable, social systems are flawed somehow. Utopia is probably not possible.

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:35:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Some of us would be called up automaticly because of our current status as inactive reservists...

You gota do what you gota do, brother.... But if I was in your shoes and we had some nut in charge poking around, prodding other nations with ultra-aggressive policies/behavior, pushing us to the brink of war - I'd break that contract in fucking heartbeat, bra. And that's even if I had to wear the zip ties and do some time in hole for it.... The whole time letting my conscience be my guide....

- R

I am no fan of bushie,as any search of my post's would show...but in this case the nut case doing the prodding is named Putin...and how Thadius or any other reservist getting himself thrown in a hole would help with that is beyond me

It's a perpetual state of animosity and war-aggression with the folks many call our leaders... But all the citizenry has to do is let it be known we don't have a dog in this one, and we're gonna sit it out.

No fighters, no fight. Simple as that....

- R

_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:36:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Hey Meatcleaver take a look at a map,geography dictated where any confrontation with Warsaw Pact forces would come not U.S.foriegn policy...Europe slept under a blanket of American security for 50 plus years and we shouldn't ask for a little gratitude...talk about chutzpah..would this be an example of typical European atitude!!!!!

Actually, it's not a typical European attitude at all. I've been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit in Europe over the past few years and found that in general, Europeans like Americans and are very grateful for our contribution in helping out in two world wars.

All of that though, will be lost on the likes of those like meatcleaver.

Oh, you could point out that the Soviets actually signed an agreement with the Nazis that allowed them to invade Eastern Europe, all before the United States was even in the war ... but points of view like that count for nothing, because meatcleaver has some secret documents, don't you know.

You could point out that after the war, the United States handed western Europe back to western Europeans, and helped pay to rebuild it, but of course because some American companies made a profit, that proves that it was all done for self-serving motives. See the afore mentioned secret documents.

You could even point out that the Soviets kept every bit of territory on which they had boots after the war, but again ... secret documents ... all our history is jaded ... they are the good guys, we are the bad guys, nothing more, nothing less.

So, try as you might, you will never get through ... but, please don't make the mistake of thinking that all Europeans are like that, because that isn't the case at all. Amazingly, I actually found a ton of Europeans that seemed to clearly understand that the United States is obviously a new super-power trying to find it's way, and like periods of European history where they represented the hyper-powerful, there are going to be mistakes made and some serious bumps in the road. They must have missed all those secret documents that tell the "real" story.

All that said, we have no business deploying missiles in Poland, or anywhere else not labelled "The United States of America." My guess is that if you took a poll, more Americans would be against this, than Poles are against it, and one of the few things I believe meatcleaver on, is his point that most Poles are not in favor of American missiles in Poland.

Keep trying though ... it's very entertaining.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:55:07 PM

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I hope you thanked Ernst Stuhlinger for your new super powerhood, don’t worry we all forgot about the V2’s.

-d

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 8/15/2008 3:03:07 PM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 2:56:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Actually, it's not a typical European attitude at all. I've been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit in Europe over the past few years and found that in general, Europeans like Americans and are very grateful for our contribution in helping out in two world wars.

It's being polite. Or hypocritical. Or both

.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 3:00:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Actually, it's not a typical European attitude at all. I've been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit in Europe over the past few years and found that in general, Europeans like Americans and are very grateful for our contribution in helping out in two world wars.

It's being polite. Or hypocritical. Or both .

...not necessarily. Caitlyn phrased it as 'helping out'.......to that extent i think Europeans are quite thankful. The difficulty comes when a non-Caitlyn gives way to hyperbole and instead of 'helping out' it's 'we won this on our own and you ought to be grateful for not speaking german'. It's at that point that Britains point out that the US was late for both parties........and in WW2 Britain stood, along with the commonwealth, more or less alone for several years.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 3:06:46 PM

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It was a half joke. Most Europeans don't have the manichean anti-American attitude they're supposedly 'famous' for; however, I think few are actually 'grateful'. These are nations, not individuals, we are talking about. It's as silly to be grateful to America for intervening at the eleventh hour during the Second World war as it is silly to hate Germany for having started it.

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(in reply to philosophy)

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