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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:29:06 PM   
caitlyn


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I have no patriotic feelings. I have no reason to. I live in a land that ignores it's poor, and lets thousands of homeless kids die in poverty every year, so that rich fucks can have a new Benz every year. If I had my way, the United States would be much different than it is today, as opposed to the rich getting rich, while the poor die in wars.
 
My commentary is limited to simple reality. Most of the cynics and haters on this forum hold the World's greatest opinion given long after that opinion is even slightly useful.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:31:39 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
And again I am left wondering WTF....America is far from perfect,can't help but wonder which of the many possible actions taken by this nation has got your panties in a twist....please enlighten me as to what the "beef" is...

Where do I begin?

If you want to remember history for only the good parts the US played in it that’s you choice. I’d rather concentrate on the here and now whilst leaving patriotic rhetoric to those over yonder. I’ve already mentioned the ways the US benefited from the end of WW2 and the alliances it made which had nothing to do with honour or justice but rather it’s own personal development.

Panties? I only wear those on Thursdays, we've been cybering together all this time and you often ask me what I'm wearing yet you forget which days I wear it. odd.
Sorry pal you have me confused with someone else,methinks someone who has never taken the time to read a book or educate himself concerning history...no other explanation for the shit you are putting out here.The U.S. benefitted from the end of WW 2 in much the same way members of the winning side have allways benefitted from the ends of war.Victors make the peace ,that is why it is good to win these little dust ups...capice?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:32:21 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

I don't know many Europeans that think about WWII when there are more pressing concerns in the world.

I did a survey the other week of Europeans and 98% think pearl harbour was the trigger event for the US entering the war to fight the Japanese, the fact Japan is no where near Europe just demonstrates how bad at geography the average US leader is

Do those same Europeans also remember that Germany declared war on the United States, and not the other way around?


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:36:19 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Therefore America had nothing to do with 60 years peace in Europe because victors make the peace; your logic not mine. Peace would have come about one way or another therefore; regardless which 'victor' won.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:36:38 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Do those same Europeans also remember that Germany declared war on the United States, and not the other way around?


... or that the "Europe First" aggreement at the Arcadia Conference was actually FDR's proposal.

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I wish I could buy back ...
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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:40:01 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Do those same Europeans also remember that Germany declared war on the United States, and not the other way around?


Back then they liked declaring wars, you shouldn't take it personally. Just like we have declared a war on terror but as of this date do not feel any less terrified.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:44:23 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Therefore America had nothing to do with 60 years peace in Europe because victors make the peace; your logic not mine. Peace would have come about one way or another therefore; regardless which 'victor' won.
Please do not attribute any "logic" you have arrived at has having emanated from my mind.Peace comes in many forms,there is the peace that allows you to disagree and than there is the peace that comes from knowing you better not....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:46:09 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Back then they liked declaring wars, you shouldn't take it personally. Just like we have declared a war on terror but as of this date do not feel any less terrified.

You are not exactly speaking well of your European friends......why is that?


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 4:47:29 PM   
Thadius


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Hmmm, perhaps this is why folks fear Russia...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26219632/

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:06:23 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Please do not attribute any "logic" you have arrived at has having emanated from my mind.Peace comes in many forms,there is the peace that allows you to disagree and than there is the peace that comes from knowing you better not....

I'm just having trouble balancing your 'America is the words guardian' on one hand with the 'to the victor the spoils' on the other.

If people were less proud of the achievements of war there would be less wars, I think. We've seen wars fix problems in the past and assume each generation has to have a similar war to keep the world safe. It's a mistake we are constantly making. There is no victory in war, people die. Germany had an evil leadership at the time, we didn't know the extent of their evil; we fought them for other territorial reasons. It started out with a situation that could have been dealt with in a political way. Many wars today can be solved by other means, but war seems to be the first option for some, shame.

It's easy for me to see the link between national pride towards historic battlefields and the idea wars can solve the problems we face today.

The war to end all wars, which one was that?

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:08:46 PM   
cloudboy


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I don't read MC the way you do.

My criticism of US policy is that its too ideological. We have an inherent bias to "the American way," and our CIA and foreign service officers end up telling the White House what it wants to hear -- or the White House doesn't listen to information it finds objectionable. This is layered on top of all the foibles we have in collecting accurate information in the first place.

Here' an example. The CIA station chief in IRAN told his higher ups that overthrowing the IRANIAN government was a bad idea and short sighted. He said such heavy handed policies hadn't worked for the British in the past and wouldn't work for us either.

He was removed. The Shah of IRAN was installed.

-------

After WWII the American foreign policy establishment was horrified by what happened to Eastern Europe. To me, the majority of mistakes we made since that time were overestimating our capabilities to roll back the USSR, underestimating the superiority of our own system, and overestimating the power and appeal of Communism.

-----

In the Present situation in Georgia, if I was in charge I would have known where Russia stood and how it felt about US actions in the former Soviet States. I would not have crossed any lines --- because the risk of war and antagonism would be too high --- and because I would not judge it to be US business to meddle with Countries directly on Russia's border. I would judge that to be beyond US military capabilities.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/15/2008 5:43:15 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:09:21 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
You are not exactly speaking well of your European friends......why is that?


I'm realistic about my nations history, I see the good and the bad. No cherry picking for me. 

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:19:45 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


My criticism of US policy is that its too ideological.


.......you'll have problems getting some to see that. Ideology is what the bad guys have.......

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:20:34 PM   
TheUtopian


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BG - We can always count on Patrick J to put things in their proper perspective....




- R

quote:

The Blowback
From Bear-Baiting

By Patrick J. Buchanan 
8-15-8  
Miheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.  

Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.  

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.  

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi, and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.  

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, Dick Cheney, and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.  

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.  

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight ­ Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.  

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.  

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?  

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?  

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?  

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?  

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of whom viscerally detest Russia?  

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.  

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?  

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.  

Bush, Cheney, and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.  

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?  

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an antimissile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.  

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.  

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.  

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.  

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?  

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost ­ in Tbilisi.





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Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:22:17 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.  

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?  



.....very good point.

(in reply to TheUtopian)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:26:59 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Please do not attribute any "logic" you have arrived at has having emanated from my mind.Peace comes in many forms,there is the peace that allows you to disagree and than there is the peace that comes from knowing you better not....

I'm just having trouble balancing your 'America is the words guardian' on one hand with the 'to the victor the spoils' on the other.

If people were less proud of the achievements of war there would be less wars, I think. We've seen wars fix problems in the past and assume each generation has to have a similar war to keep the world safe. It's a mistake we are constantly making. There is no victory in war, people die. Germany had an evil leadership at the time, we didn't know the extent of their evil; we fought them for other territorial reasons. It started out with a situation that could have been dealt with in a political way. Many wars today can be solved by other means, but war seems to be the first option for some, shame.

It's easy for me to see the link between national pride towards historic battlefields and the idea wars can solve the problems we face today.

The war to end all wars, which one was that?
First off please point me to the post where I declared "America is the worlds guardian".Second my statement to the effect that" to the victors go the spoils" was a direct response to your inane argument that America benefitted from the end of WW2.... in effect i will repeat that .Damm Skippy America benefitted and so did most of the rest of the free Europe(that not occupied by the Red Army)am I or anyone else supposed to apologise for my country playing a central role in defeating the Axis powers..if I were you I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that apology
And to top it all off,after admitting the depth of evil that was German leadership during this peroid ,you point to a mythical political solution to that evil.Where and when was this, at Munich? What if Chamberlain would have stood up to Hitler,how would that have removed the madman from power,it is quite possible standing up to him at that point might have only delayed the coming attrocities but by no means clear it would have avoided them...Do yourself a favor and get a more balanced and complete picture of history before your next message from on high

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:48:40 PM   
cloudboy


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Buchanan has always been very good at seeing and judging foreign policy issues. His article it DEAD ON. It makes me feel a little less insane.

This Bush White House is such a sorry lot.

Buchanan here makes a beautiful parallel,

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/15/2008 5:52:28 PM >

(in reply to TheUtopian)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 5:55:01 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
First off please point me to the post where I declared "America is the worlds guardian".

quote:


Europe slept under a blanket of American security for 50 plus years and we shouldn't ask for a little gratitude...talk about chutzpah..would this be an example of  typical European atitude!!!!!

quote:


Second my statement to the effect that" to the victors go the spoils" was a direct response to your inane argument that America benefitted from the end of WW2.... in effect i will repeat that .Damm Skippy America benefitted and so did most of the rest of the free Europe

Since you were responding to my inane comment in an honest way I'm still not reconciling the two positions you put forward.
quote:


(that not occupied by the Red Army)am I or anyone else supposed to apologise for my country playing a central role in defeating the Axis powers..if I were you I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that apology

Why are you so proud about an event you (an individual) wasn’t even part of, please explain? It’s this I don’t understand and you’ll find that is consistently my position.
quote:


And to top it all off,after admitting the depth of evil that was German leadership during this peroid ,you point to a mythical political solution to that evil.Where and when was this, at Munich?

What if Chamberlain would have stood up to Hitler,how would that have removed the madman from power,it is quite possible standing up to him at that point might have only delayed the coming attrocities but by no means clear it would have avoided them...Do yourself a favor and get a more balanced and complete picture of history before your next message from on high

There is no point bringing something into the mix we wasn't even aware of, you can only judge each action by the facts you have at the time not what you discover to be horrendous after the fact. Chamberlain was weak he should have done more but politicians of the world at the time were rather insular in their world view.

Don't misunderstand, there was a point to WW2 but sadly some armchair generals draw parallels between then and now that don't exist. I've continuously pointed out I don't know what the current situation has to do with WW2 or the aftermath other than the fact the same national prides and rivalries exist.


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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 6:07:22 PM   
Thadius


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I am gonna guess you aren't a soccer fan...

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/15/2008 6:12:42 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Never saw the fascination of watching people be paid ridiculous sums to run up and down a field. Makes me a social leper but as is life.

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 80
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