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RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/3/2008 8:26:22 PM

Posts: 910
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chi

You set yourself apart, proclaim a difference, the proverbial female dominator, and then say treat me the same as you would a non-different woman, even though I am different. It’s kind of like riding a Harley and calling it a Honda.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chi
In fact, both the Harley and man of submission are of extremely low maintenance when treated in a manner beffiting their redesign. Therein of course lies the problem.

Wait a minute, wait a minute...
which is the bike, now, the man or the Woman?

If male subs are like customized Harleys, does that mean we get to hang out in the garage all week, and just go out on sunny weekend days to make a lot of noise and hang around outside of bars? Because I can get with that.
I can tell you, though... if the Woman is the bike, you DAMN well don't want to be calling her by the wrong name, believe your uncle Wastie on that'un...

_____________________________

-and the few still remember passion over rage-

(in reply to Chi)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/4/2008 2:57:55 AM

Chi

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline

Jewel: Daytona, and Sturgis, have been a real toss up for me, Sturgis, I haven’t missed in 18 years, and Daytona, it’s been longer than that. I bought a “Black Shadow” (Vincent) last year from a gentleman in Fort Myers, “California Chopper” made parts and restored it for him so it’s in mint condition. I could have bought another marina or two more condos on the beach for what I paid for it, but after I rode it the cost wasn’t important.
I custom build and restore yachts and older sailing vessels and that “Black Shadow” setting in front of the office never fails to get an offer to purchase.
Back to Sturgis for a moment, somewhere in the 1950’s, my father who a Neurosurgeon at the time meet my mother at Sturgis, he tells this story about a woman walking up to his bike, getting on it and saying what are you waiting for, an invitation? Well they are still together and she still, runs a tight ship.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/4/2008 4:33:33 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Are submissives over-thinking what should be a simple statement: Don't act submissive. Just be yourself, and the submissive stuff comes later. Don't posture submissive, because it's not appropriate in initial contacts. Be appropriately aggressive as you would be courting a vanilla woman, and if you get signals that are not offensive to you, but perhaps indicate a more subtle approach may be better, listen to the cues if you feel interested enough and move from there.

Akasha

Am I the only one that finds this ridiculously contradictory?

I'm a submissive who is not supposed to act submissive in order to be myself?

If I was, or wanted to be, aggressive why would I be intersested in a domme and not be pursuing a vanilla relationship or a relationship in which I was dominant?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/4/2008 5:19:29 AM

Chi

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline

Rulemylife: No you are not the only one that finds ridiculous and contradictor comments and/or questions such as this, “Are submissives over-thinking what should be a simple statement:
Don't act submissive. Just be yourself, and the submissive stuff comes later.
Don't posture submissive, because it's not appropriate in initial contacts.
Be appropriately aggressive as you would be courting a vanilla woman, and if you get signals that are not offensive to you, but perhaps indicate a more subtle approach may be better, listen to the cues if you feel interested enough and move from there.”
It’s your submission and irrespective of hers or anyone else’s allegations of possessing supernatural enlightenments or authorities to tell you how your submission unfolds it remains your submission and you are the controller of how it manifests.
The most unending and ever widening desperate battle we humans fight, is the battle for self, don’t allow someone to rob you of the self of you.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/4/2008 5:43:35 AM

Posts: 129
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Are submissives over-thinking what should be a simple statement: Don't act submissive. Just be yourself, and the submissive stuff comes later. Don't posture submissive, because it's not appropriate in initial contacts. Be appropriately aggressive as you would be courting a vanilla woman, and if you get signals that are not offensive to you, but perhaps indicate a more subtle approach may be better, listen to the cues if you feel interested enough and move from there.

Akasha

Am I the only one that finds this ridiculously contradictory?

I'm a submissive who is not supposed to act submissive in order to be myself?

If I was, or wanted to be, aggressive why would I be intersested in a domme and not be pursuing a vanilla relationship or a relationship in which I was dominant?

My interpretation is that submission is intimate and it is inappropriate to engage in displays of intimacy with someone you aren't intimate with. Just as it's inappropriate to touch in certain ways or talk about sex in the early stages. If someone acts overly submissive at a first meeting they may be crossing the Dominants boundaries which is not a sign of respect for her as a person or a Dominant.
Bill

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/4/2008 3:23:52 PM

Posts: 1026
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtex

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Are submissives over-thinking what should be a simple statement: Don't act submissive. Just be yourself, and the submissive stuff comes later. Don't posture submissive, because it's not appropriate in initial contacts. Be appropriately aggressive as you would be courting a vanilla woman, and if you get signals that are not offensive to you, but perhaps indicate a more subtle approach may be better, listen to the cues if you feel interested enough and move from there.

Akasha

Am I the only one that finds this ridiculously contradictory?

I'm a submissive who is not supposed to act submissive in order to be myself?

If I was, or wanted to be, aggressive why would I be intersested in a domme and not be pursuing a vanilla relationship or a relationship in which I was dominant?

My interpretation is that submission is intimate and it is inappropriate to engage in displays of intimacy with someone you aren't intimate with. Just as it's inappropriate to touch in certain ways or talk about sex in the early stages. If someone acts overly submissive at a first meeting they may be crossing the Dominants boundaries which is not a sign of respect for her as a person or a Dominant.
Bill

*claps* That is a fantastic way to interpret that comment. Way to go, Bill!
Lady Jag

_____________________________

Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive. .
Could a blue screen of death constitute being defenestrated?
~Owner of wolf~ (one of them, anyway)

(in reply to subtex)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/4/2008 5:59:18 PM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Are submissives over-thinking what should be a simple statement: Don't act submissive. Just be yourself, and the submissive stuff comes later. Don't posture submissive, because it's not appropriate in initial contacts. Be appropriately aggressive as you would be courting a vanilla woman, and if you get signals that are not offensive to you, but perhaps indicate a more subtle approach may be better, listen to the cues if you feel interested enough and move from there.

Akasha

Am I the only one that finds this ridiculously contradictory?

I'm a submissive who is not supposed to act submissive in order to be myself?

If I was, or wanted to be, aggressive why would I be intersested in a domme and not be pursuing a vanilla relationship or a relationship in which I was dominant?

If you have a naturally submissive demeanor... not that I could tell you exactly what that is... then "being yourself" would mean being submissive... sort of. I think what she is trying to say is that although you are naturally submissive and she may be naturally dominant, well, ok, she is a dominant... she just isn't YOUR dominant. Most of us don't like being treated like we're automatically "your" domme, or "your" mistress just because that happens to be one of the ways we describe ourselves. It's really no different then attending a party and suddenly you start acting sick because there is a doctor present.

Gosh, I hope that made a little sense.

And the aggressive thing? Well, chances are if you want something or someone to notice you then you are going to have to show some sort of interest in that thing or person... that doesn't make you dominant, it makes you assertive... there is a difference. I look for assertive people, they interest me because they have a mind, opinions and ideas. I don't look for another dominant... well, I already have one of those... but still. Assertive is good.

And Chi.... I'm really thinking Florida this coming Feb is looking better and better.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 3:05:42 AM

Chi

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline

Jewel: I cannot accurately define dominance nor is another’s definition of dominance important to me. Neither is someone else’s definition of submission. However, I do know what it means to me and how it enacts itself in a real life setting when two or more people have the same or similar understanding. The issue here is an attempt to impose a non-representative understanding and/or belief, not the acts or actions, conducts or behaviors, of a specific submissive.
In reference to your trip, to Florida, once again, both you and your Dom would be welcome.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 5:36:03 AM

Posts: 129
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PsyVamp
*claps* That is a fantastic way to interpret that comment. Way to go, Bill!
Lady Jag

Oh, thanks PsyVamp.

(in reply to PsyVamp)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 4:59:06 PM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chi

Jewel: I cannot accurately define dominance nor is another’s definition of dominance important to me. Neither is someone else’s definition of submission. However, I do know what it means to me and how it enacts itself in a real life setting when two or more people have the same or similar understanding. The issue here is an attempt to impose a non-representative understanding and/or belief, not the acts or actions, conducts or behaviors, of a specific submissive.
In reference to your trip, to Florida, once again, both you and your Dom would be welcome.

My Dom? Surely you mean my husband and co-dominant? lol

And we wanted to do Daytona this year... Goddess willing.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Chi)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 7:14:16 PM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtex

My interpretation is that submission is intimate and it is inappropriate to engage in displays of intimacy with someone you aren't intimate with. Just as it's inappropriate to touch in certain ways or talk about sex in the early stages. If someone acts overly submissive at a first meeting they may be crossing the Dominants boundaries which is not a sign of respect for her as a person or a Dominant.
Bill

I don't recall saying anything about intimacy or overt acts of submission.

My impression of what is being said here is I'm supposed to "act normal" and "be a man" until the domme decides she wants me to act submissive.

(in reply to subtex)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 7:59:51 PM

Posts: 910
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
My impression of what is being said here is I'm supposed to "act normal" and "be a man" until the domme decides she wants me to act submissive.

Yup, that's pretty much it.
Although optimally, Normal should also be in the "be" category rather than the "act" category. And I'd probably capitalize Man if I were writing it. But that's the gist of it.

_____________________________

-and the few still remember passion over rage-

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 8:10:31 PM

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
My impression of what is being said here is I'm supposed to "act normal" and "be a man" until the domme decides she wants me to act submissive.

Yup, that's pretty much it.
Although optimally, Normal should also be in the "be" category rather than the "act" category. And I'd probably capitalize Man if I were writing it. But that's the gist of it.

I think most educated submissive men who have been around femdoms, whether in real life or online, they get this - they get it that femdoms want a "man" first and a 'submissive' only after there's a relationship in place, and that they also want to be treated like a "woman" or lady first, and a "femdom,' second.

That said, the alarming number of submissive men who ignore this completely and continue to "posture" submissive in an effort to gain the attention of femdoms is staggering, and leaves me wondering what is the reason for this inability to put fantasy aside. Is it that a great many submissive men:

1) Honestly believe, and want to believe, that their fantasy femdom is what they want and seek: That is, a woman who WANTS immediate submission, from him, and wants him to be behaving that way right out of the gate; that this is HER fantasy, and she finds it HOT. This is what femdom is to them, so looking for something different isn't an option.

or --

2) Some submissive men want to be 100% submissive. They want to be seen as 100% submissive and will not willingly adopt the role of equal when it comes to courting; they are too shy, or incapable, or don't care to be in that role, even as an equal. They would rather be single then risk the discomfort of being in a role that requires them to not be 100% submissive; they will want until a femdom courts him.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to OneMoreWaste)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/5/2008 8:13:26 PM

Posts: 910
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chi
I bought a “Black Shadow” (Vincent) last year from a gentleman in Fort Myers, “California Chopper” made parts and restored it for him so it’s in mint condition. I could have bought another marina or two more condos on the beach for what I paid for it, but after I rode it the cost wasn’t important.

Wow, 2 condos for the price of a non-original Black Shadow? I might need to go down to Florida myself!

(Shadows were fairly high production... if you want to name-drop something worth big money, you want a Black Lightning

)

< Message edited by OneMoreWaste -- 10/5/2008 8:20:09 PM >

_____________________________

-and the few still remember passion over rage-

(in reply to Chi)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/6/2008 3:06:40 AM

Chi

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline

rulemylife: “I don't recall saying anything about intimacy or overt acts of submission.” You did not say or imply anything about intimacy or overt acts, your comment is simply being manipulated and used to further an agenda or impose opinion or gain acceptance or recognition. The so-called femdom can attempt to establish interacting criteria, but that is her criteria and applies only to her, she is but one of many, the may who whine everyday about their quest being unfulfilled.
(Next we will hear about gas chambers for anyone that laughs when one these buffoons fall off her 6” heals or puts her own eye out throwing a single tale.)

< Message edited by Chi -- 10/6/2008 3:25:15 AM >

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/6/2008 5:38:33 AM

Posts: 129
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtex

My interpretation is that submission is intimate and it is inappropriate to engage in displays of intimacy with someone you aren't intimate with. Just as it's inappropriate to touch in certain ways or talk about sex in the early stages. If someone acts overly submissive at a first meeting they may be crossing the Dominants boundaries which is not a sign of respect for her as a person or a Dominant.
Bill

I don't recall saying anything about intimacy or overt acts of submission.

My impression of what is being said here is I'm supposed to "act normal" and "be a man" until the domme decides she wants me to act submissive.

I was not interpreting Akasha's comments in regard to anything you said except that I don't find them ridiculously contradictory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Are submissives over-thinking what should be a simple statement: Don't act submissive. Just be yourself, and the submissive stuff comes later. Don't posture submissive, because it's not appropriate in initial contacts. Be appropriately aggressive as you would be courting a vanilla woman, and if you get signals that are not offensive to you, but perhaps indicate a more subtle approach may be better, listen to the cues if you feel interested enough and move from there.

Akasha

Am I the only one that finds this ridiculously contradictory?

I'm a submissive who is not supposed to act submissive in order to be myself?

If I was, or wanted to be, aggressive why would I be intersested in a domme and not be pursuing a vanilla relationship or a relationship in which I was dominant?

Edited to spell Akasha right

< Message edited by subtex -- 10/6/2008 5:41:28 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/6/2008 7:38:40 AM

Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

The whole of male fantasy is based on misconception.
The biggest misconception is that they know what's going on.

So true. Some of the male population seems to be a bit misguided. One example: They see a FemDom porn flick and think that is how it's going to be. They want THAT. Imagine!

Finding the right sub is very difficult if you want to actually have a relationship with him, which is my preference. It's just like finding a vanilla mate, with a twist:)

HM

_____________________________

Come see Me at:
http://www.MistressPlanet.com
Where Dreams Come True.

(in reply to tweedydaddy)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/6/2008 8:06:13 AM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I think most educated submissive men who have been around femdoms, whether in real life or online, they get this - they get it that femdoms want a "man" first and a 'submissive' only after there's a relationship in place, and that they also want to be treated like a "woman" or lady first, and a "femdom,' second.

I agree with the general idea but not with the specifics. Generally, I agree that in most introductions, especially if the relationship sought is a broader relationship, one must be socially attractive. While there is a balance to be achieved about not overdoing submission, I don't think one must completely turn off the submissive mindset to achieve the same.

While you raise some good points, I keep in mind that you represent the perspective of a domme who identifies with SM more than D/s, and that your response to submissive behavior represents how you connect with BDSM. What you find a turn-off (submissive behavior and one who willingly submits versus one who submits with some struggle that appeals to sadism) might be attractive to some dommes. For example, there are dommes who appreciate a submissive who submits enthusiastically versus one who must be made to submit or experiences an emotional struggle.

I recognize that the points you raise have some merit but the reality I know lies somewhere in between the two end points you describe. I think the world is not so black and white that one must be either entirely vanilla or be bowing at first sight.

Accordingly, I don't think one has to wait until a relationship is in place to act submissive. I think courtship and flirting can take a submissive flavor. Sure, D/s is intimate to most people. However, there are different degrees of intimacy and every day people enter into intimate relationships expressing these different degrees of intimacy which vary with time. In my opinion, to say that submission is intimate and one must wait until an intimate relationship has been established assumes that intimacy is also black and white for everyone.

I think it is possible to treat a woman as a domme and a woman together and take interest in multiple characteristics simultaneously. Similarly, I am a man and a submissive together. Let's assume the sum image of a submissive is a painting, and blue represents submission. If only the extremes exist, then one would have either a painting that is all a dark shade of blue, or a painting that has zero blue followed by addition of blue after one has liked the painting. In my opinion, one can have a painting that has multiple colors, including different shades of blue. What affects how the painting appears to a given person is the shades of blue, and how much they are used.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 10/6/2008 8:12:24 AM >

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/6/2008 8:15:44 AM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think most educated submissive men who have been around femdoms, whether in real life or online, they get this - they get it that femdoms want a "man" first and a 'submissive' only after there's a relationship in place, and that they also want to be treated like a "woman" or lady first, and a "femdom,' second.

That said, the alarming number of submissive men who ignore this completely and continue to "posture" submissive in an effort to gain the attention of femdoms is staggering, and leaves me wondering what is the reason for this inability to put fantasy aside. Is it that a great many submissive men:

1) Honestly believe, and want to believe, that their fantasy femdom is what they want and seek: That is, a woman who WANTS immediate submission, from him, and wants him to be behaving that way right out of the gate; that this is HER fantasy, and she finds it HOT. This is what femdom is to them, so looking for something different isn't an option.

or --

2) Some submissive men want to be 100% submissive. They want to be seen as 100% submissive and will not willingly adopt the role of equal when it comes to courting; they are too shy, or incapable, or don't care to be in that role, even as an equal. They would rather be single then risk the discomfort of being in a role that requires them to not be 100% submissive; they will want until a femdom courts him.

Akasha

What a wonderfully condescending answer.

I think you don't "get this". A submissive man wants to be submissive in a relationship.

Society structures our roles, and we have to perform an aggressive act in everyday life to survive. I don't want to have to do that in my relationships.

Maybe you should ask yourself how truly dominant you are if you need a man to take the lead in "courting" you and in a relationship.

What I find is the reverse of what you suggest. There are far too many women who believe dominance is only about getting their way when they want it.
They don't really want a submissive, but rather a dominant man that they can control.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/6/2008 8:20:26 AM >

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants - 10/6/2008 8:25:25 AM

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think most educated submissive men who have been around femdoms, whether in real life or online, they get this - they get it that femdoms want a "man" first and a 'submissive' only after there's a relationship in place, and that they also want to be treated like a "woman" or lady first, and a "femdom,' second.

That said, the alarming number of submissive men who ignore this completely and continue to "posture" submissive in an effort to gain the attention of femdoms is staggering, and leaves me wondering what is the reason for this inability to put fantasy aside. Is it that a great many submissive men:

1) Honestly believe, and want to believe, that their fantasy femdom is what they want and seek: That is, a woman who WANTS immediate submission, from him, and wants him to be behaving that way right out of the gate; that this is HER fantasy, and she finds it HOT. This is what femdom is to them, so looking for something different isn't an option.

or --

2) Some submissive men want to be 100% submissive. They want to be seen as 100% submissive and will not willingly adopt the role of equal when it comes to courting; they are too shy, or incapable, or don't care to be in that role, even as an equal. They would rather be single then risk the discomfort of being in a role that requires them to not be 100% submissive; they will want until a femdom courts him.

Akasha

What a wonderfully condescending answer.

I think you don't "get this". A submissive man wants to be submissive in a relationship.

Society structures our roles, and we have to perform an aggressive act in everyday life to survive. I don't want to have to do that in my relationships.

Maybe you should ask yourself how truly dominant you are if you need a man to take the lead in "courting" you and in a relationship.

What I find is the reverse of what you suggest. There are far too many women who believe dominance is only about getting their way when they want it.
They don't really want a submissive, but rather a dominant man that they can control.

It seems that many submissive men can't reconcile that you can be assertive and self confident while still being submissive; it doesn't mean you have to be dominant in the early stages of a relationship, during courting or fliration, but simply NOT be totally passive. I haven't heard from one femdom yet that says she prefers a man to present himself initially as submissive, meek, total obedient, waiting for orders, ready to serve. I have heard many femdoms echo the statement that they prefer a man to behave with a level of assertiveness initially and at least show some initiative.

Unfortunately, this responsibility does not rest well with submissive men, in many cases. I don't want a man to be DOMINANT during the courting stages - but he'd better show some initiative. This means doing things like - asking questions, standing up for himself, being engaging, and not just sitting back hoping to be pursued for nothing more than the fact that he is "submissive." These limp noodles are lining up waiting to be pursued, and sadly, unless they are absolutely "cool, confident, mysterious, alluring, sexy" and exude a quiet confidence that makes a lady want to find out what's so compelling about him, these wallflowers will continue to just sit and wait for "Ms. Femdom Right" to pop out of nowhere and pursue him - bad news, it's not going to happen.

Don't turn this into a petty debate about semantics; no one said "not being submissive" equals "being dominant." There's a lot in between.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to rulemylife)

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