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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 10:14:25 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

What's wrong is that it's a phony issue.  The debate is ALREADY allowed public schools.  What would be totally outrageous and unacceptable would be if creationism were placed on the curriculum or taught alongside evolution as a "viable" alternative.  That's what people like Palin really want, but are afraid to say openly because it would reveal to Middle America just how fucking crazy they are.

It's just like the school-prayer issue.  Prayer is already allowed in public schools.  People like Palin want school prayer to be MANDATORY, which is nuts, but they make their position sound more reasonable by theatrically pleading for prayer to be permissible in schools--which it already is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

So again....what is wrong with allowing this debate in public schools?



We're talking about a VP candidate who believes witchraft is real. And people believe her.

Where do you go from such idiocy.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 10:45:34 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SummerWind

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I believe that we share a common ancestor with the great apes. 



If you ever saw my Uncle Sal play lawn darts, at a family BBQ, with his shirt off.........this theory would be unequivically, scientifically, no fucking doubt about it........proven


Heh...he must be friends with my cousin Junior.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 10:53:28 AM   
servantheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine. 


I agree.  Perhaps offering Biblical History as an elective class instead would suffice as giving everyone the choice as to whether they wanted to learn about it.  That way, no one could say it was forced down their throats. 

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:02:44 AM   
Musicmystery


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In fact, a number of college courses offer exactly this.

Damn liberals.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:13:05 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Philosophy is taught in High School. Maybe not as an actualy class within itself but the greats are mentioned in History, English, Government, and sometims Science.


We most certainly do not teach philosophy in high school.  Mentioning "the greats" is not teaching philosophy.  You can't even understand "the greats" unless you learn basic logic, which isn't taught in secondary schools. 

quote:

Creationism is hardly "philosophy" -- it's blind faith in a literal read of Genesis.

Same reason we discuss Greek mythology in literature classes, not philosophy or science.


The hell it's not.  Creationism is the belief that a deity or higher force is responsible for the creation of the universe.  It exists in every culture, and it's not limited to the followers of the God of Abraham. 

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:23:45 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
(...edit...).  The mere fact that many posters claim that NS is scientifically true shows the power of brain washing/lazy thinking as does the belief that my religion represents the only truth.
Brainwashing is having children get up and say the Pledge "under one god" on a daily basis, (...edit...)

I agree.
It is a consequence of the 250 odd years of US history seen as an extension of the 1000+ plus years of  European history the roots of which go back to...etc etc etc.

I hold to my view that critical analysis of both thesocio political  philosophy masquerading as science ie Natural Selection and the various religious philosophies would do good.
Students could easily be shown the fact that NS is no more than a very wild leap of the imagination and therefore should not be taught as science and the fact that religions  hold contradictory views all of which cannot be true.

In the 19th century NS wasn't  a bad guess.
In the early 21st century its lack of scientific credibility is too well known.
The problems that religion addreses are timeless.




< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/4/2008 11:29:44 AM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:24:16 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Creationism is hardly "philosophy" -- it's blind faith in a literal read of Genesis.

Same reason we discuss Greek mythology in literature classes, not philosophy or science.


The hell it's not.  Creationism is the belief that a deity or higher force is responsible for the creation of the universe.  It exists in every culture, and it's not limited to the followers of the God of Abraham. 


So any belief is philosophy? Like people believing lucky numbers will win the lottery?

Kinda makes it stupid to study, then.

philosophy
n., pl. -phies.

Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.


Additionally--------

As I've already mentioned---many cultures believe the universe simply always existed, most notably Hinduism, but hardly alone.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/4/2008 11:26:30 AM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:27:46 AM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

evolution is a fact.


In your estimation... others will disagree.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:29:44 AM   
SCNebrDom45


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Interesting concept seeksfemslave... but I THINK that if you check into it that Natural Selection is a FACT, that an organism that can not survive in it's environment either dies or has to change AS A SPECIES.  If that's a 'wild leap of the imagination' then Nature is a majorly f'd up system.... whether its an EVOLVED thing or a Created one.
Carrick

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:29:54 AM   
bluepanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I hold to my view that critical analysis of both the philosophy masquerading as science Natural Selection and the various religious philosophies would do good.
Students could easily be shown the fact that NS is at the very least a very wild leap of the imagination and therefore should not be taught as science.


Start here. I'll ask you again to make your factual argument disproving the validity of natural selection. If it's as easy as you say, you should be able to mount some sort of argument.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:31:02 AM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The very fact that the overwhelmingly vast majority children adopt the religion of their parents and don't question that religion and largely find it impossible to escape that religion, even when they are older and they can intellectually reject it, just shows that most children are indoctrinated and are very suseptable to indoctrination.


I assume you would not make such a broad, sweeping generalization without some facts to document it, so I truly would love to take a look at the research that led you to this conclusion.


I doubt you'll find scientific research to support this, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence. My own story is not uncommon and I'm sure can be repeated by millions in either fact or sentiment. I for one was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home nearly my whole life. I can tell you that looking back I was absolutely brainwashed and have spent a lifetime undoing the damage. Richard Dawkins said that 'there is no such thing as a Christian child, a Muslim child, or a Hindu child...there are only children of Christian, Muslim and Hindu parents.' He couldn't have been more right. The roots of our religious beliefs are grounded in cultural and familial teachings. Fundamentalist evangelicals teach children that the Bible is the literal word of God, is not to be questioned, and if salvation through acceptance of Christ is rejected, then one will spend an eternity damned to hell. This is a horrible thing to teach a child and by definition, is brainwashing. Christopher Hitchens said that as adults we are not taught that it is okay to not only question these teachings, but reject them. It is the brainwashing component of much religious teaching that prevents otherwise rational adults from a critical examination of their own faith.

Even as a child I was very smart and curious about the world around me. I loved science, collected rocks and insects, and spent hours reading my Uncle's National Geographic collection. I really struggled with much of what I was being taught at church and at home and common sense told me that much of the Bible could not literally be true, but I was not provided with alternative explanations or information that would allow me to draw my own conclusions. Then, my senior year in high school I took an elective course in Anthropology where we studied archeological (the fossil record and evolution) and cultural anthropology. Although I absorbed it all, I felt emotionally violated that I was being asked to choose between the teachings of my faith and observations and findings in science and human behavior. This again, by definition, is brainwashing.

For the next 10 years I continued to claim that I was a Christian but held on loosely to my beliefs. I wasn't ready to reject them but I didn't have answers either. It was a period of great struggle for me in my personal and intellectual growth. Then, at 28 I started college and majored in Molecular Biology. It was a small liberal arts university and 9 hours of Theology credit was required for graduation. It was this education that finally gave me the requisite knowledge and understanding that unlocked for me the answers I had sought my whole life. Discovery of truth was both satisfying and liberating, but I harbored much resentment toward my family and church for many years for having been deceived for so long in the most cruelest of manners. What I went through is the classic process of reprogramming a brainwashed mind.

On a side note, I went to my 10 year high school reunion and discovered that my Anthropology teacher had died tragically a couple of years after I graduated. I expressed my sorrow and explained to many of my former teachers and administrators how his Anthropology course changed my life and planted the seeds that would later start me down the path toward Atheism. Ironically, the following school year the Anthropology course was removed from the curricula after more than 10 years of offering. Again, this is a classic tactic of brainwashing.

I for one am not opposed to teaching creationism in public schools as part of a greater philosophical agenda, but only if Richard Dawkins is added to the required reading list for all high schoolers.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:31:58 AM   
bluepanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

evolution is a fact.


In your estimation... others will disagree.


They can disagree all they want, but unless they make some sort of argument to show why they disagree, not many people are going to bother paying any attention to them. I can disagree that the world is round if i want to, but the fact that I say it doesn't mean there's any real doubt the world is round.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:35:02 AM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

evolution is a fact.


In your estimation... others will disagree.


They can disagree all they want, but unless they make some sort of argument to show why they disagree, not many people are going to bother paying any attention to them. I can disagree that the world is round if i want to, but the fact that I say it doesn't mean there's any real doubt the world is round.



That's the beauty of it.  No one needs to prove their beliefs in order to receive external validation from those who believe differently.  I'm not out to change anyone's mind and don't pay attention to those who want to try and change mine.

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Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:35:49 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I hold to my view that critical analysis of both the philosophy masquerading as science Natural Selection and the various religious philosophies would do good.
Students could easily be shown the fact that NS is at the very least a very wild leap of the imagination and therefore should not be taught as science.
Start here. I'll ask you again to make your factual argument disproving the validity of natural selection. If it's as easy as you say, you should be able to mount some sort of argument.

Bluepanda: its been done to death. I would say that of my 3500 odd posts spreading the truth  on CM hehehehe not less than 1000 have covered this subject.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:38:53 AM   
Musicmystery


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People confuse matters of fact with matters of opinion. Matters of fact can be tested. Matters of opinion cannot.

I claim my 120 lb. neighbor weighs 500 lbs. Matter of fact----it's not true, but we can establish whether it's true.

Diet Coke tastes better than orange juice---matter of opinion, even if we ask thousands of people.

The difference is methodology. We can weigh my neighbor. Each Coke test will be a toss up.

Similarly, people confuse just what is "evolution." Not one, but two thoughts.

First, that evolution occurred is solidly established. We can look at geological evidence from around the globe, observe and reliably date fossils, all of which consistently supports that evolution did indeed occur.

Second, though, is the question of HOW it occurred. That, yes, is in doubt----but in no way contradicts that SOMEHOW evolution occurred. Darwin proposed natural selection, but more recently punctuated equilibrium has gained favor----primarily because we can and have observed species evolving abruptly (British pepper moths, Galapagos finches) -- the moths changing color to match pollution induced changes in leaves, and Galapagos finches growing beaks necessary depending on rainfall..

If you want to argue the second, go for it. But that doesn't change that evolution clearly happened.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:42:54 AM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If you want to argue the second, go for it. But that doesn't change that evolution clearly happened.


That's just it, I don't argue about it.  I think my way, and others can think theirs.

_____________________________

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Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:43:22 AM   
Raechard


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If we blind test 100 people who are given a sample of diet coke and orange juice to taste and 100 of them say diet coke tastes better then it is safe to say we are working for CocaCola.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:43:32 AM   
seeksfemslave


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brainiacsub: I think you have made a good post but to hold up Dikkie Dorkins as an example is regrettable to say the least.
He is an egotistical fundamentalist on a par with the maddest of mad Mullahs.
I think his work would repay  critical analysis not based on slavish adherence

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:45:01 AM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

If we blind test 100 people who are given a sample of diet coke and orange juice to taste and 100 of them say diet coke tastes better then it is safe to say we are working for CocaCola.


*loves Rae, who has now made up for the icky links he posted in the other thread, LOL*

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Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:45:31 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If you want to argue the second, go for it. But that doesn't change that evolution clearly happened.


That's just it, I don't argue about it.  I think my way, and others can think theirs.


Ah. Reason is irrelevant. Got it. How convenient. You're just right. Done deal.

Then why post at all?

(in reply to Daddysredhead)
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