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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:48:40 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

So any belief is philosophy? Like people believing lucky numbers will win the lottery?

Kinda makes it stupid to study, then.


Actually; luck or fortunity is discussed widely in philosophy.  Numerology; which you mention, is a common belief in cultures all around the world.  It's interesting that so many diverse groups of people would consider certain numbers lucky or unlucky, so of course it's discussed in philosophy. 


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:52:48 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Send me the syllabus of even one philosophy course, or the name of even one philosophy textbook, or the published journal article of even one philosopher that supports this.

Additionally, I never mentioned numerology.

Many people believe demons cause disease. It doesn't come up in philosophy-----but common belief isn't philosophy.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:53:13 AM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If you want to argue the second, go for it. But that doesn't change that evolution clearly happened.


That's just it, I don't argue about it.  I think my way, and others can think theirs.


Ah. Reason is irrelevant. Got it. How convenient. You're just right. Done deal.

Then why post at all?


I didn't say that my beliefs were right for everybody, but they are my own, and they are part of who I am and how I was raised.  Thank goodness I don't have a huge ego to support otherwise my back and knees would be crippled by now.  I am of the mindset that I don't need to beat people over the head with my beliefs on any subject to make them feel that they are wrong or misguided.  I have a healthy respect for the fact that as free thinkers, opinions will be diverse, making no one else's necessarily better than the next guy's.  It's more about respecting others and the ability to agree to disagree rather than looking like a boor who has to be right all the time.

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 11:57:15 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Again, reason for you is irrelevant.

You say you respect opinions, but you don't care whether those opinions are supported. Such a starting point leaves every discussion no more important than who likes broccoli.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:05:03 PM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, reason for you is irrelevant.

you don't care whether those opinions are supported

 
Double M, you have no clue what I care about or what I don't.  I can say though, that I don't care whether or not you agree with me or what you think about my opinions.

quote:


 
Such a starting point leaves every discussion no more important than who likes broccoli.


Maybe in your world, but not in mine...



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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:10:57 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Send me the syllabus of even one philosophy course, or the name of even one philosophy textbook, or the published journal article of even one philosopher that supports this.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-luck/

http://www.philosophytalk.org/pastShows/Gambling.htm

http://www.philosophy.ed.ac.uk/staff/documents/PsychPhilofLuckProofs.pdf

I could keep going, but I think you're capable of looking up things on your own.  I took 18 hours of philosophy courses in college.  Luck, chance, fate, predestiny, etc are discussed at lenght in many courses. 

quote:

Additionally, I never mentioned numerology.   


Yes you did.  What do you think the belief in lucky numbers is? 

quote:

Many people believe demons cause disease. It doesn't come up in philosophy-----but common belief isn't philosophy. 


Um, yes it does.  The idea that "the Devil made me do it" comes up in philosophy all the time.  It's even discussed in a historical context in criminology.  No I am not going to provide evidence for you.  I am enjoying my Saturday.  Look it up, because you've obviously never set foot in a philosophy class before. 

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:15:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		OK, you guys win.

Whatever you think is valid.

No discussion needed.

Evidence is irrelevant.

Knowledge is pointless.

Any feeling is a valid point for philosophical discussion.

Wait, slow down.....taking notes here....

OK. Probably means the substantial evidence showing the Creationists' errors about the world being just a few thousand years old despite all demonstrable scientific evidence is just an opinion.

God damn, I'm learning so much!






< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/4/2008 12:19:37 PM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:15:54 PM   
Daddysredhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

It's even discussed in a historical context in criminology.  No I am not going to provide evidence for you.  I am enjoying my Saturday.  Look it up, because you've obviously never set foot in a philosophy class before. 


SBFY, this made me smile. 

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:18:14 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

A "theory" in this sense isn't a guess---it's a series of tested hypotheses that continually work, i.e., probable.

No own explains that gravity (which it is) is "just a theory." Drop an apple in a gravitational field, it falls.

If Creationists were honest about their interest in providing a number of explanations, (1) they wouldn't do it in science class, as it has nothing to do with science, but rather attempting to cast doubt on scientific learning, and (2) they be anxious for students to also learn how Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Australian Aborigines, Polynesian Peoples, Norsemen, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans and more view creation.

Nope, they don't. Instead, it's a naked push of their own unsupported beliefs as indoctrination into the school system.

And as such, it has nothing to do with learning, and belongs freely practiced in churches, not secular schools.


I completely agree: one could even say that by attempting to instill doubt in empirical evidence based scientific knowledge, creationism is a deliberate attempt at redefining science itself. It starts off by giving the word 'theory'  a new meaning... and off it goes from there.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:37:50 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Send me the syllabus of even one philosophy course, or the name of even one philosophy textbook, or the published journal article of even one philosopher that supports this.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-luck/

http://www.philosophytalk.org/pastShows/Gambling.htm

http://www.philosophy.ed.ac.uk/staff/documents/PsychPhilofLuckProofs.pdf

I could keep going, but I think you're capable of looking up things on your own.  I took 18 hours of philosophy courses in college.  Luck, chance, fate, predestiny, etc are discussed at lenght in many courses. 

quote:

Additionally, I never mentioned numerology.   


Yes you did.  What do you think the belief in lucky numbers is? 

quote:

Many people believe demons cause disease. It doesn't come up in philosophy-----but common belief isn't philosophy. 


Um, yes it does.  The idea that "the Devil made me do it" comes up in philosophy all the time.  It's even discussed in a historical context in criminology.  No I am not going to provide evidence for you.  I am enjoying my Saturday.  Look it up, because you've obviously never set foot in a philosophy class before. 


If you've set foot in a philosophy class you'll know that philosophy is not science. It is the pursuit of wisdom/knowledge through logical reasoning and many philosophers have discussed the shortcomings of just using logical reasoning to gain knowledge.

I think it was Borgmann ( a philosopher) who said, I wouldn't stake my professional reputation on claiming the sun will rise tomorrow but I would bet my life on it.


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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:43:16 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		And let there be light: Ricky Gervais on Creationism.

"He invented the light: which means he invented the heaven and the earth IN THE DARK! How good is that?!"


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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:45:00 PM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		hehehehehehehehehehe gosh i SO love that KS

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:47:43 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

If you've set foot in a philosophy class you'll know that philosophy is not science. It is the pursuit of wisdom/knowledge through logical reasoning and many philosophers have discussed the shortcomings of just using logical reasoning to gain knowledge.


What's your point?  I never made the claim that it was.  If you'll read my OP, I said that I found nothing wrong with allowing debate on the issue of creationsism.  I never said that it should be a part of a science curriculum, and neither did Sarah Palin.  It's obvious that many people didn't read what I wrote, they just saw the word "Creationism" and went off on a tirade.  The fact that the term provokes such controversey is evidence to me that it should be debated in educational situations.  You can't debunk an idea by hiding it under the rug. 

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:47:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Hi colouredin. Ever heard that hook up line? "You're the proof that God exists. Only God could have invented such perfection."

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 12:57:09 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Another fact is that scientists actually believe in creationism themselves.
The Big Bang....release of energy from nothing.
Origin of Life....inert molecules suddenly becoming self replicating and proceeding to the "life" we see today.

So why prefer one form of creation to another ?
Only arskin'


Really. Scientists believe in creationsim? Name some, please, seeks. (and provide links to statements where they actually say they support either I.D., or "Creationisim". And DON'T try to pull that shit with the biochemist they bought off to use in the court battle in KS. He's been discredited.) 

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:07:41 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Send me the syllabus of even one philosophy course, or the name of even one philosophy textbook, or the published journal article of even one philosopher that supports this.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-luck/

http://www.philosophytalk.org/pastShows/Gambling.htm

http://www.philosophy.ed.ac.uk/staff/documents/PsychPhilofLuckProofs.pdf

I could keep going, but I think you're capable of looking up things on your own.  I took 18 hours of philosophy courses in college.  Luck, chance, fate, predestiny, etc are discussed at lenght in many courses. 

quote:

Additionally, I never mentioned numerology.   


Yes you did.  What do you think the belief in lucky numbers is? 

quote:

Many people believe demons cause disease. It doesn't come up in philosophy-----but common belief isn't philosophy. 


Um, yes it does.  The idea that "the Devil made me do it" comes up in philosophy all the time.  It's even discussed in a historical context in criminology.  No I am not going to provide evidence for you.  I am enjoying my Saturday.  Look it up, because you've obviously never set foot in a philosophy class before. 


What you've missed in all three examples is that they go on to analyze the question, not merely embrace it.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:15:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So many to read and I don't have time but want to comment on this subject...forgive me if my comments have already been stated.

As a person of faith I believe that creationism is better taught in church and observable facts of nature taught in school. That said I see no reason that a teacher can't be required to tell  students there are other theories of creation and they should talk to their parents or spiritual leader if they are old enough...Not every time they teach anthropology but at least once a year.

As stated in other threads there is no absolute truth in science  as it applies to anthropology  and natural selection so there can be doubt and nothing wrong with stating that doubt.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:19:34 PM   
colouredin


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Joined: 2/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hi colouredin. Ever heard that hook up line? "You're the proof that God exists. Only God could have invented such perfection."


lol i always liked the quote " you can tell that women was put together by someone close to God, not god himself but a senior VP" you know though on occasion i do think he has a point :P

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:20:28 PM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Just because some of us don't enjoy at all 'heated discussions', also known as arguments, doesn't mean we are incapable of reason. It means we prefer a calm existence to bludgeoning others over the head until they say they accept your statement and try really hard never to talk to you again.

Re creationism: I want my tax money when spent on science to teach science, creationism comes under the heading of comparative religion and should be taught there.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:28:50 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I forgot to add...I don't think it proper to teach creationism in school. There  are many different versions of creation and teaching any one would be against the constitution. It is best to just state there are other theories  and recommend they talk with their parents and leave it at that...in public schools anyway.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/4/2008 1:36:15 PM >

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