RE: Creationism in public schools

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Creationism in public schools

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Creationism in public schools

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:34:16 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Bravo. Why is that so difficult to understand and accept for creationist advocates? Do it at home.

Edited for spelling

.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 10/4/2008 1:37:48 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to kdsub)

Profile

Post #: 101

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:45:36 PM

Raechard

Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline

"God is dead: but considering the state the species of man is in, there will perhaps be caves, for ages yet, in which his shadow will be shown."

Freddy Nietzsche

_____________________________

えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

(in reply to kittinSol)

Profile

Post #: 102

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:47:44 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

What you've missed in all three examples is that they go on to analyze the question, not merely embrace it.

I didn't miss anything. I never made the claim that the concept should be embraced. You said luck wasn't discussed in philosophy, and smugly asked for examples. I provided them, so now you're trying to back pedal and pretend you were right all along. You weren't.

What you missed in my OP and in the entire discussion is the main argument. Creationism, religion, and philosophy are valid topics for debate in educational settings. I never said those concepts should be embraced, accepted, or adhered to. If you had read my OP, I specifically said that I accepted evolution and found it to be valid. However I am not opposed to hearing other's ideas, and I certainly don't think any topic should be denied or restricted in education. I guess censorship is something you find no fault in, but I do.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Profile

Post #: 103

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:52:40 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Nope.

If you'd READ any of those links, you'd have seen luck isn't simply embraced as a philosophical concept.

And again, you are stretching for shades of meaning, then attributing them.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/4/2008 1:53:05 PM >

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Profile

Post #: 104

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 1:56:46 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Creationism, religion, and philosophy are valid topics for debate in educational settings.

Hi slaveboy - do you think, then, that creationism is an area of human knowledge and exploration that deserves a category all of its own, because it doesn't fit into philosophy or science? From what I've seen, American students are plentily educated when it comes to matters of faith... but sorely lacking in things like geography and languages. Why not make space in the school curriculum for things that are useful in the modern world, and leave the faith-based stuff to the parents?

_____________________________

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Profile

Post #: 105

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 2:09:31 PM

persephonee

Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

Zactly...when our public schools produce the same calibre mathematicians and scientists that every other 1st world country does on a consistent basis...then we can focus on fairy tales and conservative bullshit rationalizations.

Separation of church and state.

i have no issue with creationism as a theory...but inevitably it leads to statements attempting to dispute evolution. If it is truly only an innocuous theory, and not a sad attempt at disproving (without any empirical evidence) a scientifically proven course of events, then why do the two constantly butt heads? Pushing creationism is a transparent attempt to create precedence of religious thoughts being allowed in a public state/fed funded system (public schools). Its simply another attempt to poke holes in a protection that was set up to protect citizens from radical extremism and religious fundamentalism's fervor.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Profile

Post #: 106

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 2:13:04 PM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Another fact is that scientists actually believe in creationism themselves.
(...edit...)
Really. Scientists believe in creationsim? Name some, please, seeks. (...edit...)

Well if the BigBang isnt creationist I dont know what is.
Not creationist in any formally religious sense but creationist nonetheless.

This is precisely the kind of thing that could taught in school..
ie how science and religion handle these problems.

(in reply to bipolarber)

Profile

Post #: 107

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 2:18:41 PM

Raechard

Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee
Its simply another attempt to poke holes in a protection that was set up to protect citizens from radical extremism and religious fundamentalism's fervor.

Worse still they are probably the same types that constantly bleat on about terrorist links to madrassahs.

_____________________________

えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

(in reply to persephonee)

Profile

Post #: 108

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 2:23:51 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

Pushing creationism is a transparent attempt to create precedence of religious thoughts being allowed in a public state/fed funded system (public schools). Its simply another attempt to poke holes in a protection that was set up to protect citizens from radical extremism and religious fundamentalism's fervor.

Bingo. Creationism is a political invention. Many Christians don't believe in this crackpot idea. In fact, it's not necessary to reject evolution to be a Christian. Creationism was invented in the United States of America following the literal interpretation of the Bible movement that stemmed in protestant churches in the XIXth century. This literalism mostly took root in the South in evangelical sects (see: the Baptists). It's even come to help define the cultural identity of the region. It spread like forest fire.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 10/4/2008 2:29:15 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to persephonee)

Profile

Post #: 109

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 2:27:58 PM

Raechard

Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Well if the BigBang isnt creationist I dont know what is.
Not creationist in any formally religious sense but creationist nonetheless.

This is precisely the kind of thing that could taught in school..
ie how science and religion handle these problems.

What would be the religious equivalence to this kind of work going on?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Background_Explorer

but you can still say God created the big bang if ya like.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 10/4/2008 2:29:54 PM >

_____________________________

えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Profile

Post #: 110

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 2:29:50 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Creationism was invented in the United States of America following the literal interpretation movement that stemmed in protestant churches in the XIVth century.

Lest people assume I'm as dogmatically blind as others, this statement isn't possible:

1) Protestant churches didn't exist in the 14th century
2) the United States of America didn't exist until the 18th century
3) the evangelical movement I'm guessing you mean evolved in the 19th century

Getting the facts wrong doesn't help the case!

(in reply to kittinSol)

Profile

Post #: 111

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:14:52 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nope.

If you'd READ any of those links, you'd have seen luck isn't simply embraced as a philosophical concept.

And again, you are stretching for shades of meaning, then attributing them.

No, he's not. His point is quite clear, his articulation unmistakable.

The stretching for shades of meaning is coming from the other direction.

_____________________________

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Profile

Post #: 112

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:22:16 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
In the early 21st century its lack of scientific credibility is too well known.

It is? This wouldn't be more of the drivel I previously dismantled would it?

Natural selection is a simple and obvious concept. Organisms pass on their characteristics to their offspring. Some organisms reproduce successfully more often than other organisms in the same population. The characteristics found in the more reproductively successful organism will therefore become more common.

So what part of that is not scientifically credible?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Profile

Post #: 113

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:22:58 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Does that include the mischaracterization? Or the free rewording of statements as if quoted? Just checking.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Profile

Post #: 114

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:24:19 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

Hi slaveboy - do you think, then, that creationism is an area of human knowledge and exploration that deserves a category all of its own, because it doesn't fit into philosophy or science? From what I've seen, American students are plentily educated when it comes to matters of faith... but sorely lacking in things like geography and languages. Why not make space in the school curriculum for things that are useful in the modern world, and leave the faith-based stuff to the parents?

Creation stories are a part of humanity, they exist in all cultures. I do think creationism has a place in philosophical discussions. It goes to the whole "why are we here?" question. Now I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian story of creation or any religious stories of creation. But I don't ridicule others for having that view, and it irks me when other people do. I find a lot of beliefs odd, and that includes the "cool" religions that many here profess to practice (neo-paganism, Wicca, etc.) But I don't ridicule people for those beliefs, and I enjoy discussing theology. I can do that without being arrogant and condescending. We wouldn't have a controversy about creationism and evolution in this country if it was openly discussed.

I agree with you that American education is lacking in many areas. I couldn't tell you why American students do poorly in geography. I took the same courses they did, and I excelled at geography. I love geography, it was one of my favorite subjects. Of course my father had a big affinity for maps, and I picked up on that. We had several atlases among other books in our home library. I learned orienteering with topographical maps as a child. So it just stuck with me as I attended school. I suppose a lot of other people didn't grow up with those experiences.

American students do need to do better with languages. It's the fault of the education system for taking the approach of not teaching foreign language until high school when it's harder to learn. I took two years of Spanish in college, and I still can't speak it very well. It should be taught in primary schools, and that's changing.

All that being said, I still think there is room to allow discussions on a variety of topics in classrooms. Allowing open discussion is much more productive than trying to sweep a controversial topic under the rug.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Profile

Post #: 115

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:26:51 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Many posters who are against the idea are confusing the issue IMO.
A particular religion or religious view would not be taught. What would be taught is comparative religion and the underlying ideas that are involved. eg morals, social codes explanation as to origin etc.
The mere fact that many posters claim that NS is scientifically true shows the power of brain washing/lazy thinking as does the belief that my religion represents the only truth

. Opening up young minds to the different perceptions that exist in the world can only do good . Origin or first cause are almost certainly outside the scope of scientific enquiry. That in and of itself should help to deflate the arrogance underpinning the belief that the scientific method is the only valid world view when life and its meaning are considered.
Simplicity never "evolves" into complexity.

Adding: DomKen enters the fray big boots flailing.
or
Did he trip over his undone laces and fall on his arse. hehehe

Not sure I understand every point you're trying to make, but I do agree that comparative religion should be taught.

What we have going on today, both in domestic issues and foreign policy issues has religious belief at its core. To say we should pretend that religion is strictly a family matter is short-sighted.

What you are doing though is trying to claim established scientific theory is a belief system on par with religious dogma.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Profile

Post #: 116

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:32:12 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Where are all the people advocating Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam, Primitivism...?

That's much of the world---shouldn't "comparative religion" include those?

And will they be presented as indistinguishable from science or philosophy?

Or, for slaveboy, superstitition?

(in reply to rulemylife)

Profile

Post #: 117

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:35:46 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
All that being said, I still think there is room to allow discussions on a variety of topics in classrooms. Allowing open discussion is much more productive than trying to sweep a controversial topic under the rug.

The basic problem with this is as far as science is concerned there is no controversy. No claim made in support of creationism is correct.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Profile

Post #: 118

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:37:27 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

Or, for slaveboy, superstitition?

I'm not superstitious, and free discussion is obviously a foreign concept to you. I'm sorry I bruised your precious ego.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Profile

Post #: 119

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 3:39:48 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

evolution is a fact.

In your estimation... others will disagree.

Based on the estimation of a large body of scientific evidence. Care to share what you base your disagreement on?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/4/2008 3:40:42 PM >

(in reply to Daddysredhead)

Profile

Post #: 120