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Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 4:20:44 AM

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I've been poking around the blogs recently, and this seems to be a common subject in regards to Sarah Palin. Her words on it seem to be that Creationism should be allowed to be debated in public schools, but it doesn't need to be a part of the curriculum. What's wrong with that exactly?

Now, I am not a believer in Creationism. I accept evolution as a perfectly reasonable explanation for life's origins and our origins. I believe that we share a common ancestor with the great apes. Simply put, I am a believer in evolution. But I don't see any harm in debating it. I've always thought educational institutions were the places for debate. I enjoy debating on a variety of subjects, and I don't understand the opposition towards allowing that debate.

I can remember an 11th grade history teacher that firmly believed in JFK assassination conspiracy stories. He taught them to us for the last 9 weeks of the 2nd semester. I firmly disagreed with him, and I told him so. I enjoyed that experience. It was one of the best educational experiences I had during high school. I thought the teacher was a nutter, but he provoked debate and inspired free thinking. Debate provokes free thought, and free thinking is essential for education.

A professor I had for "History of Civilization" discussed man's origins in my freshman year of college. He mentioned the debate between creationists and believers in evolution. He remarked on how important that debate was. The point he made struck home with me. We need skeptics in all fields of study, no matter how crazy they seem to us. Skeptics keep us on our toes, they compel us to think and to reason. Skeptics (no matter how crazy they sound) are important to learning. We wouldn't have made it this far without them. I thank them, and I welcome their contributions to humanity.

So again....what is wrong with allowing this debate in public schools?

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 10/4/2008 4:28:03 AM >

RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 4:34:28 AM

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Creationism has little to none on scientific evidence. It's faith based. With creationism comes the debates of what created us. God/s vs Aliens.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 4:40:04 AM

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quote:

Creationism has little to none on scientific evidence. It's faith based. With creationism comes the debates of what created us. God/s vs Aliens.

So we only teach science and we forget about about philosophy? Of course that brings me to an argument I made in my first year of education courses in college (I originally majored in secondary education). Why don't we teach philosophy in high school? It's a major component of a classical education. I don't know where this idea came from that education is solely for vocational purposes, but it's a bogus idea.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 4:46:42 AM

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Darwins' Theory is not perfect but still the purest explaination we have. Religion is based on philosophy and in the US it was determined to keep those ideas out of publicly funded schools long ago, and the reason was the history of repressive theocracies. In lower schools, the children are passing through several developmental stages and do not have the mental/ emotional capacity to make reasoned decisions on philosophical discussion.( brainwashing is easily accomplished) I believe all religious ideology should be left to the university level.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 4:52:01 AM

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I disagree that young people don't have the mental capacity for philosophical discussion. I think we have it backwards with education. You have education and you have instruction. Instructions are essential for learning vocations. But you can't follow instructions without an education. Education is the development of the mind. Once that development has been halted, you limit the amount of instruction the brain is capable of.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:10:26 AM

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The very fact that the overwhelmingly vast majority children adopt the religion of their parents and don't question that religion and largely find it impossible to escape that religion, even when they are older and they can intellectually reject it, just shows that most children are indoctrinated and are very suseptable to indoctrination.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:13:41 AM

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Philosophy is taught in High School. Maybe not as an actualy class within itself but the greats are mentioned in History, English, Government, and sometims Science.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:25:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

With creationism comes the debates of what created us. God/s vs Aliens.

God is a no-no in public schools (at least in this area) and therefore so is creationism

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:42:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I've been poking around the blogs recently, and this seems to be a common subject in regards to Sarah Palin. Her words on it seem to be that Creationism should be allowed to be debated in public schools, but it doesn't need to be a part of the curriculum. What's wrong with that exactly?

Now, I am not a believer in Creationism. I accept evolution as a perfectly reasonable explanation for life's origins and our origins. I believe that we share a common ancestor with the great apes. Simply put, I am a believer in evolution. But I don't see any harm in debating it. I've always thought educational institutions were the places for debate. I enjoy debating on a variety of subjects, and I don't understand the opposition towards allowing that debate.

I can remember an 11th grade history teacher that firmly believed in JFK assassination conspiracy stories. He taught them to us for the last 9 weeks of the 2nd semester. I firmly disagreed with him, and I told him so. I enjoyed that experience. It was one of the best educational experiences I had during high school. I thought the teacher was a nutter, but he provoked debate and inspired free thinking. Debate provokes free thought, and free thinking is essential for education.

A professor I had for "History of Civilization" discussed man's origins in my freshman year of college. He mentioned the debate between creationists and believers in evolution. He remarked on how important that debate was. The point he made struck home with me. We need skeptics in all fields of study, no matter how crazy they seem to us. Skeptics keep us on our toes, they compel us to think and to reason. Skeptics (no matter how crazy they sound) are important to learning. We wouldn't have made it this far without them. I thank them, and I welcome their contributions to humanity.

So again....what is wrong with allowing this debate in public schools?

There is nothing wrong in discussing Creationism in schools. What is wrong is presenting it as a valid alternative to evolution theory.

One is based on scientific methods while the other is purely based on faith.

Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/4/2008 5:46:46 AM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:50:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine.

I don't think creationism should be taught. It should be exposed for what it is in a political awareness class. Creationism is a tool in a conservative agenda. Its inventors probably don't believe in it themselves (I have yet to ask them). It has absolutely zilch to do in science class.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:52:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The very fact that the overwhelmingly vast majority children adopt the religion of their parents and don't question that religion and largely find it impossible to escape that religion, even when they are older and they can intellectually reject it, just shows that most children are indoctrinated and are very suseptable to indoctrination.

I assume you would not make such a broad, sweeping generalization without some facts to document it, so I truly would love to take a look at the research that led you to this conclusion.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 5:57:16 AM

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Succinctly put, rule!

I'd have no problem with people presenting "Creationisim" (or if you prefer, "Intelligent Design") in a class of comparative religions. It is not a valid scientific theory, however, and should be treated as such. You don't see astronomy classes discussing how the Earth is sitting on top of a giant turtle's back, as it swims through the celestial sea, now do you? (With all due respect to Terry Pratchett) Nor do they discuss Vilikovski (sp?) and his "Worlds in Collision" theory either.

If the religious nutters want to teach creationisim as a "legit theory" on how the universe and mankind came to be, they will have to mislead kids in their own Sunday Schools.

(Which begs the question... when you deliberately foul up a child's mind by lying to them, can it be considered a form of abuse?)

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:05:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Creationism has little to none on scientific evidence. It's faith based. With creationism comes the debates of what created us. God/s vs Aliens.

So we only teach science and we forget about about philosophy? Of course that brings me to an argument I made in my first year of education courses in college (I originally majored in secondary education). Why don't we teach philosophy in high school? It's a major component of a classical education. I don't know where this idea came from that education is solely for vocational purposes, but it's a bogus idea.

Creationism is hardly "philosophy" -- it's blind faith in a literal read of Genesis.

Same reason we discuss Greek mythology in literature classes, not philosophy or science.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:08:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine.

I don't think creationism should be taught. It should be exposed for what it is in a political awareness class. Creationism is a tool in a conservative agenda. Its inventors probably don't believe in it themselves (I have yet to ask them). It has absolutely zilch to do in science class.

If creationism is a tool for conservatives, then where do the liberal christians believe we came from?

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:13:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The very fact that the overwhelmingly vast majority children adopt the religion of their parents and don't question that religion and largely find it impossible to escape that religion, even when they are older and they can intellectually reject it, just shows that most children are indoctrinated and are very suseptable to indoctrination.

I assume you would not make such a broad, sweeping generalization without some facts to document it, so I truly would love to take a look at the research that led you to this conclusion.

How many christians have muslim children, hown many muslims have christian children or is someone's religion in their genes? Why are their great geographical blocks of single religions, is it the weather or the alignment of planets that decide someone's religion?

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:15:14 AM

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Creationism means different things to different people from God created humans in their present form so many years ago to nature reveals patterns that are simply beyond chance based mechanisms thus leading to the idea of Intelligent Design.

Couple this with the incontravertible truth that Natural selection is a social philosophy and not established fact it seems to me that there should be room to teach both philosophies in a school system.

This does not infringe separation of Church and state since this would only occur if say Islam lol were taught as "the truth" in public schools.

This issue, as are so many others, is guided by metropolitan trendies whose success record is virtually non existant.
ie almost everything they touch they make worse.

adding: the teacher who mentioned JFK "events" and conspiracy has turned out to be right. I would love to be around if ever what the government really knew is ever released.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/4/2008 6:32:48 AM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:15:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine.

I don't think creationism should be taught. It should be exposed for what it is in a political awareness class. Creationism is a tool in a conservative agenda. Its inventors probably don't believe in it themselves (I have yet to ask them). It has absolutely zilch to do in science class.

There is nothing wrong in teaching religion in schools, and the idea of creationism is part of many religions.

In fact, you could argue that not teaching religion leads to many more problems.

Teaching religious philosophy, and teaching the varying beliefs of all religions, would allow a greater understanding of much of the country's, and the world's, current problems.

The problem occurs when religious beliefs are presented as scientific fact instead of religious philosophy.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:23:59 AM

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I'm all for such discussion in schools - but which creation myth to debate? So many to choose from.

I happen to be heathen - my kids know more about the old Norse creation myth and deities than they do of the Judeo-Christian system.

If my kids are then told at school that their myth is "wrong" for no better reason than its a minority view compared to their schoolmates who prefer a different myth, in a debate such as is proposed, I fear that the lesson drawn by all present will not be one of any greater value than "might maketh right" - something they can learn from the daily news for sure, but not a lesson sufficient for future use in critical analysis and debate in ordinary life.

The lesson is "do as I say, think as I do - or else" - which I seem to recall is the same lesson which those we name as the enemy in Iran and North Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan are so vigorously trying to impart.

E

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:24:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine.

I don't think creationism should be taught. It should be exposed for what it is in a political awareness class. Creationism is a tool in a conservative agenda. Its inventors probably don't believe in it themselves (I have yet to ask them). It has absolutely zilch to do in science class.

edited because it's not fucking worth it.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 10/4/2008 6:30:22 AM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 6:30:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The very fact that the overwhelmingly vast majority children adopt the religion of their parents and don't question that religion and largely find it impossible to escape that religion, even when they are older and they can intellectually reject it, just shows that most children are indoctrinated and are very suseptable to indoctrination.

I assume you would not make such a broad, sweeping generalization without some facts to document it, so I truly would love to take a look at the research that led you to this conclusion.

How many christians have muslim children, hown many muslims have christian children or is someone's religion in their genes? Why are their great geographical blocks of single religions, is it the weather or the alignment of planets that decide someone's religion?

Except that's not what you said.

Of course parents teach their children their religion.

Teaching them a religion does not mean indoctrinating them to the point they are brainwashed and can never decide for themselves what they believe.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

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