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RE: feminization - 10/27/2008 4:50:49 AM   
djaleksandr


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/10/2008
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quote:

I'm half convinced that it's the language. If you're using gendered pronouns, you can't properly think about someone who doesn't fit the gendered binary. You go to think about him.... her.... and, well, you have to pick one just to get through the first mental sentence. It's almost impossible not to mentally slot people into one of those categories, even if you know better. I'm sure if I wasn't thinking of myself as gender-nonspecific "me," I'd have decided what gender I "really" am long since.


Language certainly IS the barrier, isn't it?

I, personally, classify as a female-born androgyne, with a dominant gender presentation of 'androgynous woman' (though I often present as androgynous male in drag).  I was born XX and I have female genitalia.  But I do not consider myself to be "man" or "woman".  Neither, do I consider myself to be both in tandem at the same time, or a man sometimes, and a woman another.  I do not identify with either of these things.  I guess, if I had to try to explain it, I would say that I felt grey in a field of black and white.  I do not feel black, or white, or black sometimes and white some other times, and I do not feel like I have both black and white in seperate forms together side  by side simultenously.  I feel grey, neither black, nor white, but having some characteristics of both.

Therefore, if I thought of myself in a gendered way, or if a person had to address me, the most proper would be something like "xe", or some other made-up pronoun, as our pronouns fail us.  Often, I will use "they" instead of he or she, even though it's plural, because there IS no pronoun for gender-neutral other than "it."  And I will NOT call a human being an "it."




Annnnnyway, about forced 'feminization'.

I am torn about this, because I feel on one hand, any 'forced' action (the particulars of whether something you want can be "forced" set aside here) is highly erotically charged for some due to the very act of that submission, and on the other, that this erotic charge might come specifically due to the patriarchial power structre we have set up in our society.  For the former, I see nothing wrong, but in the latter, I find it terribly distressing.

I suppose, in that regard, it would all be a matter of the person.

In light of the former, forced masculinization should function the same way.  But in a patriarchial power dynamic, a masculinization is one of two things -- it is something to strive to attain (in the case of "men"), or something seen as an act of defiance, and therefor something to demonize (in the case of "women").  But, outside of this power structure, forced masculinization could certainly function in the same regard as forced feminization.

A "man," too, could undergo forced masculinization to the same effect, if it was more his nature to present more "femininly".  Same goes for "women" and feminization.





But, to answer the OP -- I, personally, am not interested in forced feminization.  I am not interested in any forced gender presentation.  I am, however, a big fan of playing with gender presentation, erotically and otherwise, both in myself, and facilitating that in others.  That goes for boys in dresses, girls in suits, and all us others in various forms and presentations of "girl" and "boy."




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RE: feminization - 1/15/2009 5:35:51 PM   
Tandor


Posts: 11
Joined: 12/1/2008
Status: offline 		Stells41b that was a moving & thoughtful post.

Tandor

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 3:15:12 AM   
iwearpanties


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		i understand that both sides have valid points and both side submissves and Domiants likes or dislikes but i think that many subs see forced femming as a way too escape the every day pressures of life but for some even just being told toowear only panties can be an act of force ?  cant it ?  i know many dont like it but im sure for the subs just puitting on a panties or bra and only that form of clotheing ina subs eyes is a small way of force ?

(in reply to Tandor)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 6:15:11 AM   
SolangeRichards


Posts: 170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

A couple of points.

1. The prejudice against MtF trans people comes from disgust with/fear of all that is female. The female is polluting, you see, and all things female have the power to pollute the male. Which is to say, women have cooties, and a man who puts on women's undergarments has cooties, too.

2. What's a patriarchy without obsessive, vigilant anxiety about masculinity?


At the end of the day this is exactly where dislike of the feminized male starts and ends.  I know many will reject that notion, and that's fine with me.  It's taken us about 200,000 years to get to where we are now.  It's going to take a few more to get us to where we need to be on gender issues and understanding.

The classic example can be found in the children we raise.  Society loves that plucky little tomboy, yet the world is a colder place for her sissy brother.  The message of course is that our tomboy is doing something right.  She's attempting in her cute way to ascend to male status.  She might find herself being lauded in fact for her cheekiness.

Her brother on the other hand is a different kettle of fish.  He's turning away from the "higher" gender.  He's rejecting his status and descending to the level of a female.  His softer sensibilities may in fact be a problem to Mom and Dad.  What will the neighbors think?  Will they blame Mom and Dad for his "problem"?  Will a few years in military school, or Pop Warner football cure Junior?

When we live in a world offering true gender equality the idea of a boy naturally preferring to live as a female and a girl living as a male won't be any sort of issue whatsoever...

"We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters."~Gloria Steinem


(in reply to Reigna)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 7:16:58 AM   
Reigna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SolangeRichards

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

1. The prejudice against MtF trans people comes from disgust with/fear of all that is female. The female is polluting, you see, and all things female have the power to pollute the male. Which is to say, women have cooties, and a man who puts on women's undergarments has cooties, too.

2. What's a patriarchy without obsessive, vigilant anxiety about masculinity?


At the end of the day this is exactly where dislike of the feminized male starts and ends. 

Ah, thank you, Solange. Dread of the polluting female, and the atavistic fear of her power to destroy masculinity, is part of the air we breathe. We don't get it any more than fish "get" water. I don't expect many people to get it, nor do I feel especially enlightened because I do get it. I just feel like I had a really DUH moment.

When we live in a world offering true gender equality the idea of a boy naturally preferring to live as a female and a girl living as a male won't be any sort of issue whatsoever...

"We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters."~Gloria Steinem

I'm not as optimistic about the prospects as you and Gloria Steinem are. I think we humans are stuck with certain inescapable structural elements that always will make females kind of scary and icky, even to ourselves. I don't think, though, that we are stuck with all the nasty ramifications of those built-in elements. In fact, I'd say we fall short as human beings if we don't do our best to overcome them.



< Message edited by Reigna -- 1/16/2009 7:19:17 AM >

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RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 8:04:02 AM   
beeble


Posts: 799
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From: UK
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quote:

SolangeRichards wrote:
The classic example can be found in the children we raise.  Society loves that plucky little tomboy, yet the world is a colder place for her sissy brother.  The message of course is that our tomboy is doing something right.  She's attempting in her cute way to ascend to male status.

Is she?  I thought she just trying to live her life on her own terms, independent of society's assumptions about her sex.  I doubt the average ten year old is really up on gender politics: she's just doing what she wants to do.  Now, the sissy boy is also doing what he wants to, but is it that he is looked down on because he appears to be aligning himself with those parts of society's expectations of women that independent-minded women are trying to escape from?  Perhaps the problem is not that he wants to behave like a woman but, rather, the type of woman he wants to behave like.  After all, people stop approving of the tomboy if she starts bullying and generally acting like the kind of boy that is disapproved of for being overly aggressive.

quote:

When we live in a world offering true gender equality the idea of a boy naturally preferring to live as a female and a girl living as a male won't be any sort of issue whatsoever...

Doesn't it defeat any hope of gender equality to dismiss a tomboy as `attempting to ascend to male status'?  If you decide that any high-status woman has `male status' then, automatically, everyone of `female status' has low-status, which is the very thing you're complaining about.  Saying that an independent woman is trying to be a man effectively denies the possibility of any kind of feminine independence.

beeble.


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 8:37:45 AM   
Loliita


Posts: 69
Joined: 1/15/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rdilgart

how many Domme's enjoy it, as opposed to not enjoring it?


The closest I've come to this is when I made a past boyfriend wear my clothes while he cleaned my bathroom. I didn't see it as feminization but as humiliation. I figure if I want a female submissive I'll just get a real one. I'm bisexual. If a guy likes to wear a woman's clothes then making him clean while in my clothes doesn't seem humiliating but fun for him. I don't want it to be fun. It's supposed to be punishment for some infraction.

No, it's not for me. If I want a female I'll just get a real one.

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RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 9:37:15 AM   
SolangeRichards


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

SolangeRichards wrote:
The classic example can be found in the children we raise.  Society loves that plucky little tomboy, yet the world is a colder place for her sissy brother.  The message of course is that our tomboy is doing something right.  She's attempting in her cute way to ascend to male status.

Is she?  I thought she just trying to live her life on her own terms, independent of society's assumptions about her sex.  I doubt the average ten year old is really up on gender politics: she's just doing what she wants to do.  Now, the sissy boy is also doing what he wants to, but is it that he is looked down on because he appears to be aligning himself with those parts of society's expectations of women that independent-minded women are trying to escape from?  Perhaps the problem is not that he wants to behave like a woman but, rather, the type of woman he wants to behave like.  After all, people stop approving of the tomboy if she starts bullying and generally acting like the kind of boy that is disapproved of for being overly aggressive.

Interesting that you take great pains to exclude our young tomboy from any sort of agenda, just a young woman seeking to live life on her own terms in your view.  Her sissy brother however is a different matter.  Though I subscribed no specific behavior pattern, you immediately decided that he must in fact be playing to a now outmoded concept of femininity, and thus, he deserves whatever scorn he gets.  

quote:

When we live in a world offering true gender equality the idea of a boy naturally preferring to live as a female and a girl living as a male won't be any sort of issue whatsoever...

Doesn't it defeat any hope of gender equality to dismiss a tomboy as `attempting to ascend to male status'?  If you decide that any high-status woman has `male status' then, automatically, everyone of `female status' has low-status, which is the very thing you're complaining about.  Saying that an independent woman is trying to be a man effectively denies the possibility of any kind of feminine independence.


Doesn't it defeat any hope of gender equality to dismiss a tomboy as `attempting to ascend to male status'?  Yes, of course it does.  That's part of the point.  Our tomboy should be free to be the person she chooses to be, exactly as our sissy should.




beeble.


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RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 10:17:29 AM   
Reigna


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

SolangeRichards wrote:
The classic example can be found in the children we raise.  Society loves that plucky little tomboy ... The message of course is that our tomboy is doing something right.  She's attempting in her cute way to ascend to male status.

Is she?  I thought she just trying to live her life on her own terms, independent of society's assumptions about her sex.

I doubt the average ten year old is really up on gender politics: she's just doing what she wants to do. 

I suspect it's a little of both. She enjoys climbing trees and playing with outer space-themed Legos. But her behavior doesn't occur in a vacuum. She doesn't have to be up on gender politics to know what's up. Nor, by the way, does her sissy brother.



< Message edited by Reigna -- 1/16/2009 10:19:17 AM >

(in reply to beeble)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 10:20:07 AM   
beeble


Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

beeble wrote: I thought [the tomboy was] just trying to live her life on her own terms, independent of society's assumptions about her sex.  I doubt the average ten year old is really up on gender politics: she's just doing what she wants to do.  Now, the sissy boy is also doing what he wants to, but is it that he is looked down on because he appears to be aligning himself with those parts of society's expectations of women that independent-minded women are trying to escape from?  Perhaps the problem is not that he wants to behave like a woman but, rather, the type of woman he wants to behave like.

SolangeRichards wrote: Interesting that you take great pains to exclude our young tomboy from any sort of agenda, just a young woman seeking to live life on her own terms in your view.  Her sissy brother however is a different matter.

I didn't ascribe an agenda to him, either.

quote:

Though I subscribed no specific behavior pattern, you immediately decided that he must in fact be playing to a now outmoded concept of femininity

All the definitions of the word `sissy' that I can find use words such as `effeminate' (as distinct from `feminine'), `cowardly' and `unassertive' -- just the sorts of things that we want women not to be, to achieve equality.  So, before I go any further, is this what you mean by `sissy'?

But I will note that you ascribed no specific behaviour pattern to the tomboy, either, but you seem to be going along with my suggestion that she's independent without being overly aggressive.  She is showing certain traits that have traditionally been thought of as masculine but, on the other hand, she isn't doing just anything that any man has ever done.  She isn't, for example, expressing her tomboyishness by emulating sissies and, conversely, the sissy isn't expressing his sissiness (er, is there a word for that?) by emulating tomboys.

beeble.


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(in reply to SolangeRichards)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 10:22:15 AM   
Reigna


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loliita
No, it's not for me. If I want a female I'll just get a real one.


Me, I don't want a female. I like pretend females, though. They have really fun dangly bits hiding under their skirts.

< Message edited by Reigna -- 1/16/2009 10:23:21 AM >

(in reply to Loliita)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 10:23:23 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Hey!  I was a lil girly girl... in a dress... but I was still in the tree's, climbing anything I could... hanging from dress from a few of them, racing the boys and winning... playing football which I did get some pants or shorts for and came later... but I was never trying to be a boy... I just liked beating them.  Chick power went a long, long way there... and proving boy's weren't all that and could be beaten by a girl... was proving all sorts of points.



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RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 10:30:00 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I was a lil girly girl
 
And now you're . . . . .?

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RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 10:31:41 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I was a lil girly girl
 
And now you're . . . . .?


I grew up... now I'm just a bitch...

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 2:54:56 PM   
BondageBarbieX


Posts: 495
Joined: 4/1/2008
Status: offline 		I have helped many a man with feminization...love it!

(in reply to rdilgart)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: feminization - 1/16/2009 8:04:08 PM   
welcomerain


Posts: 63
Joined: 5/28/2008
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Of the dommes that I've met over the years, the vast majority see it as a very labour-intensive session which mainly benefits the submissive.

The majority opinion seems to be that it's fun if a sub makes it worth the effort.

A lot of subs seem to think feminization pairs up well with domestic service, which is supposed to be about benefitting the dominant; and worse, they want the feminization first, which means there is a good chance you will run out of time and the sub will do no service at all.

The upshot is that I've met several dommes who have said to hell with it.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 9:19:33 AM   
pinnipedster


Posts: 217
Joined: 4/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

The way I see things is that the ones ruining it are the ones asking for forced femenization.  You just asked, it is no longer forced. Sorry.


I've heard this objection often, and it puzzles me slightly.   Why is it different than whipping a guy who is a masochist? 

I mean, yeah, if the feminization translates to your following his script exactly, then I understand.  (That's why I think so many prodommes make feminization a specialty.)  But if you are the one deciding the when, what, and how, then I don't see that it's that different from any other consensual form of play.  I am heavily interested in bondage, and if I ever get into a D/s relationship, I hope that bondage will be a large part of it.  But that doesn't mean I expect I will only be bound when and how I choose, or will get bound whenever I like.  The surrender of some control is the main thing.

Not that I'm saying you should try to pursue it if it's not your thing -- some women just don't get it, and that's fine.  But it's certainly damn frustating if the only way I could experience something is to pretend I don't want it to happen....

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 9:44:23 AM   
beeble


Posts: 799
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From: UK
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quote:

pinnipedster wrote:
I've heard this objection often, and it puzzles me slightly.   Why is it different than whipping a guy who is a masochist?

I think the distinction between `forced X' and whipping masochists or tying people up is that the masochist is looking for pain and the bondage afficionado is looking for immobilization, whereas that `forced X' afficionado seems to be primarily interested in the `forced' aspect.

Essentially, the problem is that the word `forced' doesn't really describe what's going on because it is, at least to some extent, what the person wants to happen to them.  I think the same objections would be raised if we used the terms `forced pain' or `forced immobilization' instead of `whipping' and `bondage'.  And we don't have a succinct and precise way in English to express the idea `In general, I like the idea of being feminized and I want you to control when and how that happens to me, and, sometimes, to make me do it even if it's not the first thing on my mind at that time'.  Or, possibly, `I'm not fully comfortable with the idea of being feminized but it's something that turns me on so I want somebody to push me over that ``energy barrier'' and make me actually do it.'

beeble.


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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 9:46:41 AM   
Coupleofwhats


Posts: 280
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline 		I like Crossdressing when actual effort is made to look like a beautiful woman, and the CD revels in his own beauty.
The whole gorilla-in-a-tutu look is pointless at best; more often, it's insulting to women.



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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 9:55:48 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
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So...I have posted a LOT on the whole "forced" in feminization and I think my opinion is well known.  If it is being "forced" to cover an inability or unwillingness to recognize, embrace, and accept that aspect of a person, I think it is unhealthy.  If it is viewed as being humiliating, that insults many women.


< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 1/17/2009 9:59:47 AM >

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