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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 9:56:23 AM   
beeble


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quote:

Coupleofwhats wrote:
The whole gorilla-in-a-tutu look is pointless at best; more often, it's insulting to women.

It's no more `pointless' than any other BSDM activity; it's just unappealing to you.  And I'm not sure it's really insulting to women, either.  OK, so the gorilla looks stupid in the tutu but a lot of women look stupid in tutus, tu.  Or, more generally, I don't see why the fact that a man is wearing clothes that are ill-suited to him is insulting to the people for whom those clothes were designed.  It is insulting, say, to professional sportspeople when an unfit person wears a sports shirt or cap?

beeble.


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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 10:05:40 AM   
PeonForHer


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The whole gorilla-in-a-tutu look is pointless at best; more often, it's insulting to women.
 
Why would it be insulting to women?  Surely there's a difference between a man's "feminine side" (to use Jung's terminology, what the hell) and real-life women?  Is someone who wants to be a 'slave' in the BDSM sense being similarly insulting to people in the past (or even nowadays) who were, or are now, real-life slaves?



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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 10:11:51 AM   
OttersSwim


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I think she was referencing the objectification and fetish-izing of women, the feeling that forcing men to dress as women is humiliating and implies that being or looking female is bad, humiliating, or removes power.  That is what I took it for anyway.  

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 10:16:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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Hokey-dokey.  This thread seems to conflate two entirely different subjects somewhat.

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 10:58:52 AM   
Reigna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

... gorilla looks stupid in the tutu but a lot of women look stupid in tutus, tu.  Or, more generally, I don't see why the fact that a man is wearing clothes that are ill-suited to him is insulting to the people for whom those clothes were designed.  It is insulting, say, to professional sportspeople when an unfit person wears a sports shirt or cap?

beeble.



This is an excellent point. Thank you.

I wonder whether a woman who looks ridiculous in a tutu insults other women? Does a woman in a too-short, too-tight mini and fishnets insult other women? Does she insult women more, less, or as much as a man in a too-short, too-tight mini and fishnets? Deconstructing the answers would yield a lot of information about the core of the objection.

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 11:05:10 AM   
Reigna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I think she was referencing the objectification and fetish-izing of women, the feeling that forcing men to dress as women is humiliating and implies that being or looking female is bad, humiliating, or removes power.  


Yes. While we're at it, why not ask why a man dressed so, is humiliated and has had his power taken away. Because he's been turned him into a woman? OH NOES!!

< Message edited by Reigna -- 1/17/2009 11:06:20 AM >

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 11:13:55 AM   
beeble


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quote:

OttersSwim wrote:
I think she was referencing the objectification and fetish-izing of women, the feeling that forcing men to dress as women is humiliating and implies that being or looking female is bad, humiliating, or removes power.

But I think that implication is false.  For example, many women would be humiliated to be dressed in a tutu but that doesn't imply that being or looking like a ballet dancer is bad, humiliating or removes power.  Most people would be humiliated to be dressed as a baby but that doesn't mean that being a baby is bad or humiliating. (I grant that it removes power.)

Most men, on the other hand, look foolish in women's clothes -- they're designed for a completely different body shape.  Looking foolish is bad, humiliating and removes power.

beeble.


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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 11:27:14 AM   
Reigna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

Most men, on the other hand, look foolish in women's clothes -- they're designed for a completely different body shape.  Looking foolish is bad, humiliating and removes power.



Good point. But somehow I doubt that if the same clothes were designed for men, they'd look any less "foolish." It's no big deal to cut and sew a skirt, for example, in such a way as to fit a male body. Would this make a man's wearing of the skirt any less foolish?

How about ruffles? Ruffles are, from a certain perspective, simply a means of drawing attention to whatever they're near. Would a man look foolish wearing a heavily ruffled blouse, if it's cut to fit him? (I'm not talking about that crap guys rent to wear with tuxedos at weddings. I'm talking about a seriously ruffly, frouffy blouse.)

Lipstick? Mascara? These exist to draw attention to certain facial features. I know men with luscious, bee-stung lips. Red or hot pink simply would enhance them. Would these men be OK if they wore lipstick? And certain men's eyes ... why not some mascara, some eyeliner, to emphasize their beauty? Nothing wrong there, as long as they don't look foolish, right?

Oh? They still don't look right? Why?

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 12:43:20 PM   
PeonForHer


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Because New Romantic pop music died out in the 1980's?

Sorry, being frivolous.

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 12:47:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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 . . . But there's a point in there somewhere about women's attire, make-up and hairstyles being "adapted for men".  Designed to draw attention, no doubt - but not seen as ridiculous.  Not in the 1980s, anyway. 

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 12:51:51 PM   
ALAstella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coupleofwhats

I like Crossdressing when actual effort is made to look like a beautiful woman, and the CD revels in his own beauty.
The whole gorilla-in-a-tutu look is pointless at best; more often, it's insulting to women.



This isn't quite as insulting as people deciding who looks good in what outfit, 'outing' the transgendered with cries of 'it's a man', 'that's a bloke' or cries of 'Oh my God' or taking it upon themselves to decide who is acceptable as a female or not.

You want the whole 'gorilla in a tutu' look? Fine, take yourself off to somewhere for example in London such as Brixton, Tottenham or Peckham and you'll find plenty of heavy-set women wearing ill-fitting clothing, wigs and make up who just as accurately fit the description. Why, you don't even have to go that far. Simply browse some of the profiles of the female dommes to find some who look more like glamorous transvestites than the glamorous transvestites themselves.

Besides, to expect your average CD or TG to immediately transform themselves into a beautiful woman is not just unrealistic, but is a gross misunderstanding over what feminniity (or masculinity for that matter) really is all about. Even for someone who is working towards full gender reassignment it can take them years to develop any sort of credible feminine image.

But the thing is, if women can wear trousers, jeans, and adopt formerly masculine styles to their clothing and footwear and walk through the streets without comment, why is it such a major issue if a guy chooses to crossdress as a woman? I mean who's making it a big issue and reacting with all the drama?

And you really think all it takes is a good outfit, a wig and a few cosmetics to create a woman? Isn't that way of thinking more insulting to women in general?

And it's precisely here we hit the crux of the matter.. Women who are born as girls are raised that way, more or less, there's a right of passage and stages from being a girl to becoming a woman which take many years, just as it takes years for a boy to become a man. Most crossdressers know this, it's got nothing to do with passing as a woman, they want to feel like women and experience what women experience, and the desire for forced feminization is quite often a desire to be taught what women were taught as girls. It's a desire for lessons in femininity, not necessarily as a means to humiliate them and it doesn't necessarily mean they perceive women as being anything less than men, they rather perceive it as an extension of themselves, and it's a desire to meet the challenge of being able to cross the barriers between genders and to experience life as being one or the other gender.

The thing is the transgendered community embraces both genders and everything between. Try to work out the difference between a transsexual female in the early stages of her gender reassignment, a transvestite, and a crossdressing male on the basis of their appearance, and you can't. I can't anyway. The difference lies entirely on the inside, the transsexual female really is female whereas the crossdressing male is merely fulfilling an emotional need. It lies within, there's no way of knowing from their appearance.

Crossdressing in itself lies within someone's basic human right of freedom of personal self-expression, for they are as free to choose how they present themselves to the world as the rest of us. Why do they do it? Because they need to is the most superficial answer I can give, but what does it matter anyway? They are certainly not under any obligation to be aesthetically pleasing to anyone else.

If you don't like the way someone looks you can always look away or ignore them, and just move on. The only ones who make a problem out of it are the ones who have a problem with it for this is what it is, their problem.


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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 12:53:01 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistresseLotus
I wonder how many Doms (male) enjoy masculinizing their female slaves for kicks?
Probably as many female Dommes that enjoy feminizing male slaves.


I think this is a rather astute point, actually. A man might take pleasure in dressing his female submissive as a man or boy, but the majority of men who want a woman as a submissive are probably attracted to women and to feminine gender signals.

Personally, I have seen some real beauty and eroticism in transvestites and men who bent gender roles, but it's not something I would initiate and I would probably not want it to be a big part of a primary relationship. More of an occasional spice, playful game sort of thing.

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 12:58:59 PM   
PeonForHer


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You want the whole 'gorilla in a tutu' look? Fine, take yourself off to somewhere for example in London such as Brixton, Tottenham or Peckham and you'll find plenty of heavy-set women wearing ill-fitting clothing, wigs and make up who just as accurately fit the description.

Oh yes.  This I can absolutely confirm.

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 1:02:58 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ALAstella
If you don't like the way someone looks you can always look away or ignore them, and just move on.


I agree with this in general, but I think there is another style of feminization which really is misogynistic and hateful, and does have to be dealt with rather sternly. When we see a "gorilla in a tutu", there is a profound difference between the gorilla who has donned the tutu by choice, because he finds the tutu empowering and wants to be pretty and sexy, and the gorilla who is being forced to wear the tutu because he is being shamed and humiliated by forcing female-ness on him.

Anyone who does not recognize this essential difference needs to refer back to the old hazing rituals of American fraternities. Forcing new pledges to dress as women and endure sexual assault is a pretty common form of abuse, and there are very few American males who are more hateful, violent and abusive to REAL women than fratboys. They dress up pledges as women and violate them because they see "victim" as a female role. Many men do, which is why rape and other forms of sexual assault are so common.

Personally, I will not indulge this type of feminization. Many men who are into feminization seem to desire it because they want to be "lowered", "degraded" and "victimized", and they feel that becoming female is the way to do that.

It gives me the skin-crawling creeps.

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RE: feminization - 1/17/2009 2:42:54 PM   
Reigna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


quote:

ORIGINAL: ALAstella
If you don't like the way someone looks you can always look away or ignore them, and just move on.


Anyone who does not recognize this essential difference needs to refer back to the old hazing rituals of American fraternities. Forcing new pledges to dress as women and endure sexual assault is a pretty common form of abuse, and there are very few American males who are more hateful, violent and abusive to REAL women than fratboys. They dress up pledges as women and violate them because they see "victim" as a female role.


I don't know much about frat boys; but I'm inclined to think that when they want to assault a woman, they go find a woman to assault. The kind of assault you're referring to here is almost certainly about a male who's has allowed himself to be degraded to the status of a female.

Females are, on a visceral level, considered lesser in status than males. Males who break ranks are dealt with severely. Thus drunken violence against fraternity pledges wearing lipstick, comments about gorillas in tutus, and--perhaps you've heard--certain murders that don't get investigated.

It's also possible to play with the phenomenon erotically. That happens to be my preferred method of dealing with it. YMMV.

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RE: feminization - 1/19/2009 7:31:55 PM   
pinnipedster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

pinnipedster wrote:
I've heard this objection often, and it puzzles me slightly.   Why is it different than whipping a guy who is a masochist?

I think the distinction between `forced X' and whipping masochists or tying people up is that the masochist is looking for pain and the bondage afficionado is looking for immobilization, whereas that `forced X' afficionado seems to be primarily interested in the `forced' aspect.

Essentially, the problem is that the word `forced' doesn't really describe what's going on because it is, at least to some extent, what the person wants to happen to them.  I think the same objections would be raised if we used the terms `forced pain' or `forced immobilization' instead of `whipping' and `bondage'.  And we don't have a succinct and precise way in English to express the idea `In general, I like the idea of being feminized and I want you to control when and how that happens to me, and, sometimes, to make me do it even if it's not the first thing on my mind at that time'.  Or, possibly, `I'm not fully comfortable with the idea of being feminized but it's something that turns me on so I want somebody to push me over that ``energy barrier'' and make me actually do it.'

beeble.



I suppose I see your point there.

The analogy I thought of today is that it could be something like going into the military.  The US military is all-volunteer at the moment, no one can force you to join.  But once you do join, you're giving up a lot of control over your situation, and are sometimes going to have to do things you may not really enjoy doing, or at least don't want to do at the time you're told to do them.  You know this going in, but you still expect the situation to fulfill some want or need of yours -- whether it's to serve your country, or get job training and money for education, or some combination.

Similarly, I see a situation where, yes, I admit up front I want to be feminized -- but once I reach an agreement with a dominant woman to carry this out, I will be doing it on her schedule and to her standards.  I might be allowed to tell her what I hope to achieve -- a prettier and more feminine appearance, certain learned skills, modified behavior, etc. -- but I would be submitting to her methods and discipline as to how to get there.  Or, I can see it as a tool or reward: I flatly admit that I would be much more interested in performing domestic service while in feminine attire -- not that I would refuse it in other situations, but you could get me actually *eager* to spend the day doing dishes and washing the floor if I got to be all pretty and girly while I did so.  (Yes, maybe it's sexist, but I never claimed to be 100% rational....)

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RE: feminization - 1/19/2009 10:56:35 PM   
azjojoba


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It is humiliating for us guys to wear skirts and female clothes. It's all in the mind though, because there were times where people wouldn't blink an eye if they saw a man wore a skirt -- think Roman or Scottish.

I never thought that wearing a skirt somehow degrades me to a woman though. Most of us men, especially subs, consider women to be superior because they do wear skirts. To me women who wear skirts are authority figures.

I'm not sure what the logic is, but mentally some of us men like the CD thing because society doesn't allow us to wear female clothes. Someday in the future that kink may not exist, but it's very real in our times.

If men didn't get humiliated doing this I doubt female dommes would enjoy it either. Just a guess though.



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RE: feminization - 1/29/2009 9:02:28 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: azjojoba
If men didn't get humiliated doing this I doubt female dommes would enjoy it either. Just a guess though.

Cross-dressing and feminisation can be fun, but I don't see it as humiliating, and don't enjoy humiliation play in general. When I have helped men cross-dress (mostly gay guys who like doing drag occasionally, but a couple of my ex-boyfriends as well) it was fun and playful, like when I get together with a female friend and help her find clothes/makeup/etc. that flatter her.

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RE: feminization - 1/29/2009 9:06:46 AM   
Lockit


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Not all domina's are motivated by humiliating men....

Not saying anything about anything but that in general!  But it is silly to think that a femdom would only do something if it included humiliating a man....

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RE: feminization - 1/30/2009 1:44:20 AM   
iwearpanties


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i think there are   many great points here but . Dont you think the whole idea it too enjoy and have funn as well escapse from the evey day life issues we face and just get away form it all ?

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Profile   Post #: 100
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