Is being a sub a subtle art? (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 5:01:10 PM)

Geisha girls, trained for years to be submissive, but artfully submissive - that's what finally prompts this question.  I don't want to push the comparison between geisha girls and male subs too far because that would be too, well, weird.  But:

I keep seeing comments from Dommes along the lines of "It's really simple.  The sub that I want is one who obeys and wants to do just that".  Yet, there's a mass of contradictions involved, as far as I can see - and they have to be absorbed before the point when a sub even begins to write his profile.  'Make it clear you're a sub', I was told, 'but do not list your likes and dislikes.  A Domme will see the 'likes' as a list of demands and she'll place you in the category of "one those standard, tiresome kink-fans who wants to control from underneath"'.  Yet, how else do you express your need to be a sub otherwise?  I'm pretty damned  proficient at writing ( though I say it myself) but I found it hard.  What about other men who can't write as well?  More fundamentally: how does a man have a long-term desire to be submissive without that desire 'fixing' on certain fantasies?

Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'.  That is, Dommes who don't want wimps.  Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man?  I mean, it's such an enormous paradox.  You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner.  How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind?

OK, assume you've found such a sub anyway, and now he's your partner.  Or one of your partners.  You don't want him to be an automaton - if you did, you'd be happy with a blow-up doll.  You want him to have his own brain and his own desires.  But he's got to want them just so much, but no more.  The level of his desires has to be perfectly tuned - too much, and he's dominating you; too little, and he's a bore and you might as well stick with your vibe. 

The clincher for me re that is that enormous and still-growing thread on hetero men sucking cock.  I've seen the same answer, time and again, from Dommes - just as I've had it from past vanilla girlfriends: "I want to see you aroused, but against your will".  How the fack does that work, exactly? 

As far as I can see, it works by means of the sub being able to put up with two entirely contradictory demands on his emotions and his libido in particular.  He's supposed to love it and hate it at the same time.  That's what gets his Domme off.  In fact, that's what always seems really to get a Domme off - her sub loving and hating a thing at the same time.   But if I'm right in that, then being a sub is no straightforward thing at all - it's a complicated and subtle task.  No wonder so many 'potential subs' don't 'make the grade' for Dommes.

It might all be a lot easier for we male subs, I have to say, if we had the psychology, culture and history behind us of geisha girls.  But we haven't - we're just men, brought up as 'men should be brought up', after all . . . .

I apologise for the rambling and I do appreciate that I probably 'think too much'.  (I get that all the time.)






atypicalsub -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 5:16:14 PM)

I believe you are quite correct.  Many (most?) Dommes want to see male subs doing something the subs don't want to do, but want the subs to simply enjoy the fact that it is making the Domme excited.  They often seem to feel that if it is something the sub would have done willingly then it is not submission at all.

I feel I am fortunate to have found an exceptional Mistress who appreciates me for doing things that make her life easier and more pleasurable.  She enjoys my submission to her even if it does not involve any humilliation, suffering, or reluctance on my part. 



Lockit -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 5:23:39 PM)

I am going to need more time to address the many things you say Peon, as my mind is mush today... but I do not like forcing my submissive into much of anything.  I don't want to send mixed messages and forced turned on... I am not sure I get.  Maybe because I am not as experienced in a lot of this as other's... maybe my interest level is something different... I don't know, but I want him turned on and if I have to force it... I am not really interested from where I am coming from now... who knows... that could change, but at this age.. I kind of doubt that.  Torment I get... forced I do not.



Wickad -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 5:50:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Geisha girls, trained for years to be submissive, but artfully submissive - that's what finally prompts this question.  I don't want to push the comparison between geisha girls and male subs too far because that would be too, well, weird.  But:

I keep seeing comments from Dommes along the lines of "It's really simple.  The sub that I want is one who obeys and wants to do just that".  Yet, there's a mass of contradictions involved, as far as I can see - and they have to be absorbed before the point when a sub even begins to write his profile.  'Make it clear you're a sub', I was told, 'but do not list your likes and dislikes.  A Domme will see the 'likes' as a list of demands and she'll place you in the category of "one those standard, tiresome kink-fans who wants to control from underneath"'.  Yet, how else do you express your need to be a sub otherwise?  I'm pretty damned  proficient at writing ( though I say it myself) but I found it hard.  What about other men who can't write as well?  More fundamentally: how does a man have a long-term desire to be submissive without that desire 'fixing' on certain fantasies?


I have found that most men are goal orientated.  They decide on the goal, they decide on a stategy to get to their goal, and they implement their plan.  If you are looking for a red, corvette, with a series of options then you do a search for the car, the year, and the options.  You expect that if someone has the car you are looking for they will take your list of wants as simply a concise way of describing what you need.  Women tend to not look at things this way.  We have been hounded and bombarded by all kinds of men with a list of 'demands'.  This is exactly how we see it.  I'm sure that is not always how men see it.  Men and women are different and they use different stategies to obtain the things they want.

That being said, in the context of men seeking out women ... unfortunately the men are not in a position to make the choices.  This means they have to market their profiles and their searches to the way women think, not to the way they would normally think.  Sad, but true.

quote:


Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'.  That is, Dommes who don't want wimps.  Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man?  I mean, it's such an enormous paradox.  You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner.  How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind?


The only way this is a paradox is if men believe women are inferior.  If a man believes that women are dominant, or superior (though I'm not talking about 'FemSuperiority here), then there is no problem.  A submissive man competes with other men and wins in the arena of men ... and then comes home to a woman he sees as dominant to him and submits.  The idea of winning in the 'arena of men' and then not being able to submit is only an issue if a man believes that by submitting to a woman makes him less than the other men.  If you believe that submitting to a woman makes you more (smarter, controlled, braver, etc) then what is the real problem?

quote:


OK, assume you've found such a sub anyway, and now he's your partner.  Or one of your partners.  You don't want him to be an automaton - if you did, you'd be happy with a blow-up doll.  You want him to have his own brain and his own desires.  But he's got to want them just so much, but no more.  The level of his desires has to be perfectly tuned - too much, and he's dominating you; too little, and he's a bore and you might as well stick with your vibe. 

The clincher for me re that is that enormous and still-growing thread on hetero men sucking cock.  I've seen the same answer, time and again, from Dommes - just as I've had it from past vanilla girlfriends: "I want to see you aroused, but against your will".  How the fack does that work, exactly?

As far as I can see, it works by means of the sub being able to put up with two entirely contradictory demands on his emotions and his libido in particular.  He's supposed to love it and hate it at the same time.  That's what gets his Domme off.  In fact, that's what always seems really to get a Domme off - her sub loving and hating a thing at the same time.   But if I'm right in that, then being a sub is no straightforward thing at all - it's a complicated and subtle task.  No wonder so many 'potential subs' don't 'make the grade' for Dommes.


I think you mistake the hating and loving thing with .... I want you to hate 'it' but love "ME" enough to do it anyway.

quote:


It might all be a lot easier for we male subs, I have to say, if we had the psychology, culture and history behind us of geisha girls.  But we haven't - we're just men, brought up as 'men should be brought up', after all . . . .

I apologise for the rambling and I do appreciate that I probably 'think too much'.  (I get that all the time.)






Overall, I can understand how a submissive man (hell, any man) might be confused by the needs and wants of women.  I don't feel that women are more complex but rather different than men.  Thus, the confusion.  I don't have an answer for the OP as this seems to be a simple case of 'women being from Venus and men being from Mars'.  How vanilla is that - lol???

Wickad



undergroundsea -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 6:08:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad


Good points.

Cheers,

Sea



yourMissTress -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 6:25:40 PM)

Yes and no.  How's that for an answer?

If it makes you feel any better, we Female Dominants face some riddles (is there a plural for paradox? I looked it up on dictionary.com and found no plural form of the word after trying to spell it a bunch of times) as well.

The key is to find people that accept or like you just as you are.  The best email I ever received from a male sub started with something to let me know he read my profile and somewhere in the middle he made me laugh and at the end he simply asked for the opportunity to get to know me.  I know that every email he sent out to every other Domme began and ended the same, and at the same time, I may have been one of a few that laughed at what he intended to be funny.   Something about him, and it was just him being himself, struck me and prompted me to reply.

Don't try to be something that you are not.  That never works out for anyone.  Sooner or later you have to be yourself, and the sooner it is, the better.







MistressDolly -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 6:28:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad


Good points.

Cheers,

Sea


Seconding. ;)

As always, Ms. Wickad's on the mark.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 6:49:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Geisha girls, trained for years to be submissive, but artfully submissive - that's what finally prompts this question.  I don't want to push the comparison between geisha girls and male subs too far because that would be too, well, weird. 


I don't find it wierd -- my Darling and I have often said that what we -really- need is a male geisha. *nodnod*

quote:

But:

I keep seeing comments from Dommes along the lines of "It's really simple.  The sub that I want is one who obeys and wants to do just that".  Yet, there's a mass of contradictions involved, as far as I can see - and they have to be absorbed before the point when a sub even begins to write his profile.  'Make it clear you're a sub', I was told, 'but do not list your likes and dislikes.  A Domme will see the 'likes' as a list of demands and she'll place you in the category of "one those standard, tiresome kink-fans who wants to control from underneath"'.  Yet, how else do you express your need to be a sub otherwise?  I'm pretty damned  proficient at writing ( though I say it myself) but I found it hard.  What about other men who can't write as well?  More fundamentally: how does a man have a long-term desire to be submissive without that desire 'fixing' on certain fantasies?


The thing is, he -can- fix on fantasies as long as he realizes that, just like any other fantasy, there is a point where fantasy ends and reality begins. If the desire extends past the fantasy and thrives on the reality, it's all good. If everything is about the fantasy, and everything else goes to pot, stuff doesn't work. For the man who can't express himself in writing, unfortunately he's going to have to find another medium and hope that he can express himself that way. This is why, for the ones who aren't getting results through mediums like CM, sometimes it helps to get out in public and meet people face-to-face.

quote:

Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'.  That is, Dommes who don't want wimps.  Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man?  I mean, it's such an enormous paradox.  You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner.  How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind?
This would -not- be me. I want wimps. I want seriously submissive submissives. I want the boys who crave the opportunity to grovel at any pair of female feet that comes along. No dichotomy -- I like the shy ones, the quiet ones, the groveling ones who -need- to belong at someone's feet.

quote:

OK, assume you've found such a sub anyway, and now he's your partner.  Or one of your partners.  You don't want him to be an automaton - if you did, you'd be happy with a blow-up doll.  You want him to have his own brain and his own desires.  But he's got to want them just so much, but no more.  The level of his desires has to be perfectly tuned - too much, and he's dominating you; too little, and he's a bore and you might as well stick with your vibe.


Yes, this is true... but that's the core of submission... that balance between being yourself and being what your d-type wants and needs from you.  

quote:

The clincher for me re that is that enormous and still-growing thread on hetero men sucking cock.  I've seen the same answer, time and again, from Dommes - just as I've had it from past vanilla girlfriends: "I want to see you aroused, but against your will".  How the fack does that work, exactly? 


If you can ever figure that out, let me know. I have male darlings who are bi and who have sex and I find it -really- hot... but I don't get off on the whole 'forced fem' or 'forced bi' thing... it isn't fun for me, and I suspect it isn't fun for them, so why bother?


quote:

It might all be a lot easier for we male subs, I have to say, if we had the psychology, culture and history behind us of geisha girls.  But we haven't - we're just men, brought up as 'men should be brought up', after all . . . .

I apologise for the rambling and I do appreciate that I probably 'think too much'.  (I get that all the time.)


Which brings me back around to why I like the boys who managed to not succumb to their programming and stayed wimpy.

*grins*



PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 7:19:01 PM)

Many (most?) Dommes want to see male subs doing something the subs don't want to do, but want the subs to simply enjoy the fact that it is making the Domme excited.  They often seem to feel that if it is something the sub would have done willingly then it is not submission at all.
 
I've learnt that much, ATS.  That is, at least enough to know how to keep my trap shut a lot of the time. [;)]




PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 7:20:18 PM)

my mind is mush today
 
Lockit, give me your mush.  Mush is good.



AAkasha -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 7:26:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Many (most?) Dommes want to see male subs doing something the subs don't want to do, but want the subs to simply enjoy the fact that it is making the Domme excited.  They often seem to feel that if it is something the sub would have done willingly then it is not submission at all.
 
I've learnt that much, ATS.  That is, at least enough to know how to keep my trap shut a lot of the time. [;)]




For me, if I do something to a submissive he wants done, I end up feeling like a prop more than anything. Of course, it depends on how he handles it. Some subs understand how to deal with this and not make it totally self indulgent. I think many acts of submission create a combination of feelings and surrender/suffering/sacrifice is a slice of that pie; a sub who can read his femdom knows which piece of the pie she's after.  Of course a lady knows he wants it all on some level and she wants him to want it too - but a lot of dominant women enjoy the idea that he is still doing it *for her* and there are some things he'd probably not do were it not for her pushing him.  This is far different from a submissive who wants to do x, y and z and is just waiting for a woman - any woman - to "make" him do it.

I crave authentic vulnerability.  Some sub men get there by doing things they like, others by things they don't like (while it's happening; afterward, it's another story).  I don't care so much about acts (except bondage is a big one for me), I care about reactions to acts. I prefer surrender and vulnerability to self indulgence and neediness.  But there are many types of femdoms and subs - ultimately, what tends to shift everything and make it all click is chemistry.  I may not have much interest in "act A," but if a sub who I think is incredibly hot explains to me how "act A" affects him, I am intrigued and will probably want to integrate "act A" into my own bag of tricks, with my OWN style and flavor - as long as the act isn't totally a turn off for me.  If a sub is just shopping around for a lady to do "act A" to him and I'm number 64 on the list, chances are, I will not want to engage.

Mostly, I enjoy a man who submits to me, not a submissive man looking for "a woman" to submit to.

Akasha



LPslittleclip -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 7:31:08 PM)

there are a lot of sublities to being a submissive. but each one will be diffrent with each domminant that they interact with. for me i have found a wounderfullmatch in my M'Lady and i have seen many similar parings among those i have met. in each there was a a ballance in the submissive being allowed to have a voice and allowed to have there own opinions(respectfully of course).
as far as men bing confused with the interactions of of the genders is from our society that has confused the definitions of what is allowable for each. for example why in nature the males get dressed up but we dont, why is it that some jobs are considered for wemon like cooking but the top cheffs are mostly men. ect... in other countries the way that the sexes interact is very diffrent depending on how much influence from outside there was.



PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 7:39:14 PM)

I can't fault you on everything else, Wickad, but for two things.  The first:

A submissive man competes with other men and wins in the arena of men ... and then comes home to a woman he sees as dominant to him and submits.  The idea of winning in the 'arena of men' and then not being able to submit is only an issue if a man believes that by submitting to a woman makes him less than the other men.  If you believe that submitting to a woman makes you more (smarter, controlled, braver, etc) then what is the real problem?

True, though it hasn't been "the arena of men" for quite a few decades, now.  Or at least, quite a lot less so.  In practice, sub males compete against people of both sexes in many, perhaps most, walks of life - and the only situation in which he lets go of all that and submits is with his Domme. 

That's quite a contradiction, I'd have thought.  Aren't there going to be practical, day-to-day consequences, to be worked through?  More fundamentally, isn't there a bundle of psychological contradictions that needs to be resolved?

Or maybe I'm creating a bucketful of hypothetical problems that don't exist in practice.  I'm assured I'm quite adept at that. [;)]



CdnExplorer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 8:07:26 PM)

Being a strong man in the vanilla world and also a submissive does seem to be a contradiction, and when I was brand spanking new at this I had quite the little freakout about it. Somehow I felt that if I gave in to what I wanted, I wouldn't be myself anymore. What started to get me over that was the realization that there was only one person who I was going to really be submissive to. After actually getting a taste of it I discovered how it balanced me, and for a time afterwards I felt more like myself and more relaxed / confident doing my "vanilla man" things. On top of that with things that I find extemely difficult to do, and challenging to my identity, I find it helps to consider that they're not things that I'm choosing to do...but that are being done for the benefit of someone who I have placed an incredible amount of trust in.

Of course the idea of being outed is something I still worry about, but it doesn't get in the way of accepting my submissive side. Any problem caused as the result of that wouldn't reflect on me, but on people who for whatever reason don't understand me.



Venatrix -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 8:21:23 PM)

FR - I must not be a "real domme."  Or maybe I'm not a "real woman."  I just love lists.  Even my lists have lists.  I do exactly what Wickad said women don't do:  I have goals, I write down how to get from points A to B and beyond, I figure out the pros and cons, I start tackling all the things that need doing and so on.  I *like* to see a sub with a list.  That way, I can tell whether we have things in common naturally; without the list, I know I'm likely to wind up with someone who claims to like the things I do, just so that he can have a chance at a relationship.  That's not what I want.  I want genuine compatibility. 

And I want my sub to get as much enjoyment out of the relationship as I do, both the kinky and the vanilla.  Any dominant who completely disregards his or her sub's needs, however complicated those needs may be, isn't going to have a sub for very long.



Venatrix -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 8:25:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

In practice, sub males compete against people of both sexes in many, perhaps most, walks of life - and the only situation in which he lets go of all that and submits is with his Domme. 

That's quite a contradiction, I'd have thought.  Aren't there going to be practical, day-to-day consequences, to be worked through?  More fundamentally, isn't there a bundle of psychological contradictions that needs to be resolved?



I've often suspected that it creates a great deal of stress for males subs, and I think is one of the reasons why so many bail out on a potential D/s relationship only to show up on one's figurative doorstep a few weeks later.  The dichotomy of needing to submit but being conditioned otherwise must be a terrible strain.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 9:24:51 PM)

Reply just to the OP, and really only about a few lines of the OP:

Please don't ever use the word "always" when you talk about dommes, or any other group of human beings, and what they want or don't want.

Not all of us are enchanted by a man with inner conflict about his submission or his masochism.  For some of us, the guy who "loves and hates it" at the same time kinda gives us only 50% of what we're looking for, which is the guy who loves it, period, and doesn't hate it at all.  [;)]

Don't get me wrong, sacrifices and suffering for my sake are romantic and sex-ay, but genuine ambivalence and genuine resentment are not.  I have no fantasies about genuinely unconsenting partners and no insecurities that have to be assuaged by making sure my partner isn't enjoying things too much.  I am not worried about whether I am really in control or whether I really have power--that is a certainty.

Some of us are not particularly looking for a hyper-masculine man, for that matter.  I am not hugely into feminization, because as a feminist I don't care to associate subordination or humiliation with being female.  But I certainly enjoy and cherish the qualities in a submissive man which some women would consider "feminine"--his ability to emote, to communicate, to nurture, a gentle and loving personality, the ability to express desire by being seductive, etc..

Anyway.  I'm not saying that these posts and/or profiles you've been reading don't exist.  There are indeed women who do not want to spank anyone but the Marlboro Man, and there are women who really get off on a man who struggles to accept pain or humiliation, who really has to fight to submit.

Personally, I'm not one of them.  I have no interest whatsoever in beating anyone who is not a masochist--I think that the joy and pleasure that a real masochist can get out of pain is amazing and beautiful.  Trading that experience for some dreadful experience of beating someone down just fills me with disgust and horror.  And the same is true of receiving service from a submissive.  The difference between someone who gets true joy from pleasing me and someone who has to force himself is just night and day--and I'm not interested in the guy who has to force himself.  Life is just too short.  If you want to be miserable, get a dayjob, not a domme.



undergroundsea -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 9:27:04 PM)

Being submissive is an art of subtlety indeed.

For instance if a sub is craving a flogging, he can't just say, Mistress would you please flog me? Instead he should take the subtle approach and say:

Mistress, do you remember that time when you flogged me, and I squirmed and said ouch, and you just laughed and you left all these welts and bruises on me? Do you remember that, Mistress?

And inevitably she'll say:

Yes, I remember. What about it?

That's when the sub should say:

That was cool!

And then if the sub wants to worship her feet, he shouldn't just say, Mistress may I worship your feet? Instead he should say:

Mistress, would it be alright if I accidentally spill syrup on your feet and then say that there are people starving in so and so country and that food should not be wasted and that I should lick up the syrup. Would that be alright, Mistress?

See. It's all about the subtlety.

Cheers,

Sea



Venatrix -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/21/2008 9:40:43 PM)

Indeed.  I happen to have a weakness for cheeky subs.  "Don't you think you should give me a good flogging because it would be a shame for you to get rusty after you've practiced so hard to get good at it?" would work for me every time.  Or maybe almost every time.  Of course, it would work because he'd know that I enjoyed giving him a good flogging, so we'd both wind up satisfied.



slaveskin -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 2:04:45 AM)

i'd like to congratulate peon on opening a very useful discussion.
Starting in an unorthodox way may i indicate, for the sake of MissTress, that the word 'paradox', although a noun in English, has no plural form because the word originates as an adjective in ancient (and modern) Greek (from 'para'=over, beyond+'doxa'=thought, belief~glory).
First, methinks that the confusion, as aptly stated by peon, is based on contradictory needs; most Dommes appear to desire some form of 'slave warriors' but the only example of such a case in history were the mamluks and, in terms of slavery, it proved an unsuccessful one since the slave warriors eventually overthrew their former masters. Society does associate success with dominance (e.g. the word 'winner' implies that there is also a 'loser') consequently a 'successful winner' may become submissive only to counterbalance his emotions and that makes him a temporary or pseudo-submisive rather than an original one.
Second, everyone has a list of desires and needs; a true submissive may call it a wish list to avoid the stronger term 'demands', but it is still a list nonetheless. Submission, and even more so slavery, is oppressive, particularly in the long run, and i think that no one will enter an oppressive condition if his wishes (needs) are not even partially fullfilled.
Third, i feel that becoming a slave does make me (at least) 'less of a man', a human being to avoid being sexist, but if i couldn't cope with that i'd stick to vanilla. This condition is even more precipitated if the slave is cuckolded ('sucking cock' also) which breaks the real, or implied, bond of being a consort-albeit a submissive one.
 



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