RE: Is being a sub a subtle art?

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colouredin -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 12:13:04 PM)
Im going to address your parrageraphs one at a time, however i better say im doing so from the standpoint of a female submissive, not who youre directing this message at, however i think distinction based on gender can go too far. Regarding profiles, i dont equate being submissive as being into a list of activities so i cope just fine writing my profile. I tend to write a generic profile, one thats thoughtful and about me, sure i inculde my definition of submission and what it means to me, i dont think a laundry list says anything. The thing is that primarily i want to attract people who are similar to me, people that I will share minds with, thats the foundation of things for me. I am an increadably strong woman in the outside world, i have had to make lots of decisions about lots of differant things, for me thats why I am a better sub, its my release valve, my leisure and a distinction from all the other stuff. I dont think that submission has any bearing on strength or weakness, its about knowing yourself and being secure in that. Everyone has their own desires, their own intersts the point that people seem to miss is that for many subs the overwhelming desires is not one that people instantly see as desire. I am happiest making someone else happy, people struggle with that, they dont get that i dont want to do things to make me happy, that doesnt actually make me happy. Its a hard thing to explain. How you can be aroused against you will, well thats easy, many people in this lifestyle are turned on by things again that may not seem horny to most 9though i think they are, simply biology but lets not go there) things like fear, force, coersion etc you may be doing something that you dont like but be turned on by the fact that you are being made to do it, therefore being turned on against you will, its not the physical act that is doing it. The thing is, to me its not difficult its just what comes natural, for some they try to be something that they arent they force things and want to be 'true' and all that bollocks rather than simply accepting what they do and dont like. I dont think its anything to do with how you are bought up, or what society says you are, I think many male subs play up to the fantasy element of it (as do female ones) rather than realising its not a contradiction to be both. I can be a carer in one world and a slut in another, i dont find that contradictory, I can be sweet as pie with my family, all my table manners there and then with Sir i can crawl around the floor and eat from a bowl. Its not a contradicion, I am many things each just as important and just as valid and none mitigate another.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 12:17:12 PM)
See, Colouredin, that's why GIRLS ARE BETTER. [:)] Now if only I liked having sex with women, I would be set... [&:]

PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 12:26:50 PM)
Everyone has their own desires, their own intersts the point that people seem to miss is that for many subs the overwhelming desires is not one that people instantly see as desire. I am happiest making someone else happy, people struggle with that, they dont get that i dont want to do things to make me happy, that doesnt actually make me happy. Its a hard thing to explain. It's not hard for me to understand at all, colouredin. It reminds me of a time just before I split with my last (vanilla, but tending-to-sub) girlfriend. She said to me "I'll do anything you want in bed, be whatever you want me to be" and I just thought "No, that's so much the opposite of what I want from a partner. It's so, so the wrong thing to say". People can't see where that sub-want comes from, nor why it's there. I'm not sure I've got much of a handle on it, either.

colouredin -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 12:32:55 PM)
I dont think it matters why its there or where its from, we can self analyse and navel gaze as much as we like, the important thing is just to accet and allow it, the thing is that despite all the shouting about being alternative we were still inundated with what is right and what is normal for our entire lives, and so even while claiming alternative people simply dont see it. One of my faves is when a Dom says, your purpose is to make me happy, well no actually my purpose is to make me happy, it just so happens that what makes me happy is not ness what is considered 'normal' once you accept that and your partner accepts that then you have something pretty amazing, but i do think that lots of people even in the lifestyle dont get that. People assume its some kind of deep trauma that does it all, i think thats crap, everyones been through trauma. I think though we are half way there, we have already embraced a term (there is power in a name) no matter what the name is, its a step to self acceptance. In my belief many people go through their lives desiring something that they cant define and letting that confuse them and their relationships.

PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 12:47:16 PM)
"God, yes", is all I can say to all of that. If I can't explain my sub-ness to myself, what chance have I got of explaining it to a deeply suspicious, cynical Domme who's had her fill of flakes in the past? And I can't get a grip on what it feels like to be a Domme/Dom either. So maybe it's best just to stop trying and get on with it instead.

AAkasha -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 12:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer "God, yes", is all I can say to all of that. If I can't explain my sub-ness to myself, what chance have I got of explaining it to a deeply suspicious, cynical Domme who's had her fill of flakes in the past? And I can't get a grip on what it feels like to be a Domme/Dom either. So maybe it's best just to stop trying and get on with it instead. Work on chemistry first, kink second. If you are connecting with a femdom who has some experience, trust that she probably knows what questions she wants to ask and how to let it evolve. Pursue and court her politely but assertively, as you would with a vanilla date, but let her take the lead with kink and with sex. That's the best advice I can give on it. Don't feel like you need to be submissive to a woman during the courting process/getting to know you phase. Akasha

PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 1:09:22 PM)
Work on chemistry first, kink second. If you are connecting with a femdom who has some experience, trust that she probably knows what questions she wants to ask and how to let it evolve. Pursue and court her politely but assertively, as you would with a vanilla date, but let her take the lead with kink and with sex. That's the best advice I can give on it. Don't feel like you need to be submissive to a woman during the courting process/getting to know you phase. Thank you very much for that, Akasha. For more reasons than I can say, it's a great relief to see all that said. (Especially the last sentence.) It's bloody hard work framing questions here - and I pride myself at being quite good at articulating feelings, generally. But there's so much I'd never really said at all, till I came here. For what it's worth: I'll always do my damnedest not to bugger up the soul of any future partner. I don't ever want to do that.

Lockit -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 1:15:02 PM)
Sometimes one cannot fully understand something until they are experiencing it. You can imagine a roller coaster ride... but until you feel those high climbs and those rushing dips... you can't fully know what it is like. You can imagine it... dream about it... and yet what happens then? You might fill your mind full of crud! I think the best way is to have some understanding and then get out there. If you learn football and know the game in theory... what happens when the other team tramples you cause you hold the pig skin? If you trust yourself to any degree and are mature... go out and experience, you will find your way.

Venatrix -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 2:21:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Work on chemistry first, kink second. If you are connecting with a femdom who has some experience, trust that she probably knows what questions she wants to ask and how to let it evolve. Pursue and court her politely but assertively, as you would with a vanilla date, but let her take the lead with kink and with sex. That's the best advice I can give on it. Don't feel like you need to be submissive to a woman during the courting process/getting to know you phase. Akasha Yes, absolutely. Nothing annoys me more than someone trying to push the D/s dynamic before I'm ready to. Sometimes I'm ready much sooner than others. When I am ready, I'll let him know.

Venatrix -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 2:27:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer It's just as well that most, apparently, want someone nearer towards the middle. Some, of course, like the wimps - hmm, maybe I'll wear my glasses more often . . . You're confusing wimps with geeks. Geeks are hot; wimps are not.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 3:48:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer It's just as well that most, apparently, want someone nearer towards the middle. Some, of course, like the wimps - hmm, maybe I'll wear my glasses more often . . . You're confusing wimps with geeks. Geeks are hot; wimps are not. You are SO right! [:)]

PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:18:04 PM)
You can imagine it... dream about it... and yet what happens then? You might fill your mind full of crud! I think the best way is to have some understanding and then get out there. You're not suggesting that I leave the house, are you, Lockit? I mean, I like to think I'm opened minded and far be it from me to criticise other people's activities - but that's, frankly, a sick and disgusting idea. Well, I might give it a try. This time next year, maybe [;)]

Lockit -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:23:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer You can imagine it... dream about it... and yet what happens then? You might fill your mind full of crud! I think the best way is to have some understanding and then get out there. You're not suggesting that I leave the house, are you, Lockit? I mean, I like to think I'm opened minded and far be it from me to criticise other people's activities - but that's, frankly, a sick and disgusting idea. Well, I might give it a try. This time next year, maybe [;)] Hahahehehaha... you think hiding in your house will protect you? You are already stepping out... just a lil bit further and you will be exposed and ready I am sure. Just a step or two! lol And believe me... the way you have hit these boards... if you don't come out, some might hunt you down! lol Now... really... I would put money on it... you will be out that door before the year is out! lol Sick and disgusting... maybe... but you love it! lol

PeonForHer -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:26:35 PM)
I thought wimps and geeks were the same thing? - Aaaah, now I remember: Ryan O'Neal in Love Story. To your Ali McGraw. You don't often get "macho" and "geek" in the same package, I guess. I suppose there's only ever been one famous macho geek - and that was Clark Kent.

AAkasha -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:32:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I thought wimps and geeks were the same thing? - Aaaah, now I remember: Ryan O'Neal in Love Story. To your Ali McGraw. You don't often get "macho" and "geek" in the same package, I guess. I suppose there's only ever been one famous macho geek - and that was Clark Kent. My husband is a macho geek. He doesn't LOOK like a geek, but he is a nerd when it comes to computers and reading and being way too intelligent for his own good and spends any time he is not reading watching modern marvels, mythbusters and the history channel - but he also plays ice hockey with a mean bent, rides mountain bikes and stays in perfect physical shape. In High School he was a super geek but athletics kept him balanced. If he had never gotten contact lenses though who knows... How do you define "geek" these days though? I guess that's what matters. Akasha

Politesub53 -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:40:08 PM)
Peon, maybe the answer for you lies in the acceptance, more than the "What ifs" ? By this i mean don`t get too confused as to why you are submissive, just accept the fact. Too much thinking as to why, just leads to more confusion. i have been through that phase myself, struggling to accept my submissive feelings, as they went against the norm. i even found it difficult to use the term Mistress initially, although i was quick to stop saying "Yes sweetie" each time i was asked to do something :) There have been several mentions of chemistry and this really is the key. Treat any possible partners, as a partner who is dominant, rather than a dominant who is a partner. Like any relationship, it has to grow a flourish, and find its own level. You will always be the submissive partner, thats a given. What you wont be able to work out instantly is how submissive you should be, this is because everyone you meet will have a different idea. You spoke of the level of your desires needing to be perfectly tuned, once again this should find its own level, just as it does in a vanilla relationship. Its all about growth ( No pun intended, which is unusual for me ) and understanding. i think its possible for a submissive male to be confident and assertive, without being dominating. Sort of like an invisible line which doesn`t get crossed.

Venatrix -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:45:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I thought wimps and geeks were the same thing? From merriam-webster.com (for obvious reasons, I was going with definition #3 for "geek"): Main Entry: geek Pronunciation: \ˈgēk\ Function: noun Etymology: probably from English dialect geek, geck fool, from Low German geck, from Middle Low German Date: 1914 1 : a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usually includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake 2 : a person often of an intellectual bent who is disliked 3 : an enthusiast or expert especially in a technological field or activity <computer geek> Main Entry: wimp Pronunciation: \ˈwimp\ Function: noun Etymology: origin unknown Date: 1920 : a weak, cowardly, or ineffectual person

Lockit -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:49:54 PM)
I knew Ozzie Osborn was a geek! Now there is proof! I always thought Sharon was domme too. Okay it wasn't a chicken or a snake... but still...

ThundersCry -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 4:50:42 PM)
I Am clueless as to rather or not being a sub a subtle...art... Watching one whom knows how to serve sure appears to be an art to...me...

Dari -> RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? (10/22/2008 5:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Geisha girls, trained for years to be submissive, but artfully submissive - that's what finally prompts this question. I don't want to push the comparison between geisha girls and male subs too far because that would be too, well, weird. But: I keep seeing comments from Dommes along the lines of "It's really simple. The sub that I want is one who obeys and wants to do just that". Yet, there's a mass of contradictions involved, as far as I can see - and they have to be absorbed before the point when a sub even begins to write his profile. 'Make it clear you're a sub', I was told, 'but do not list your likes and dislikes. A Domme will see the 'likes' as a list of demands and she'll place you in the category of "one those standard, tiresome kink-fans who wants to control from underneath"'. Yet, how else do you express your need to be a sub otherwise? I'm pretty damned proficient at writing ( though I say it myself) but I found it hard. What about other men who can't write as well? More fundamentally: how does a man have a long-term desire to be submissive without that desire 'fixing' on certain fantasies? Speaking for myself alone, when I read a man's profile here, I want to know about them. My ideal read would be: 1) Things that he enjoys doing from a vanilla perspective. He likes Sci-Fi, or Fantasy, or plays video games, or likes football or whatever - those are the things I'd prefer to see written about. For those who don't have an ability to write well, a simple list of things that are enjoyed works fine: "I'm 24, I like football, soccer, and hockey. I read a lot of books, and I majored in Mathematics. A couple of my favorite authors are David Weber and John Ringo." (please note: this is not MY list of things.) 2) A few things about the type of person he's looking for, maybe even a little about the type of submissive he is: "I'm exploring a bit of masochism at the moment, but I'm primarily a service sub. I prefer to keep things private, but my submission is never far from my mind, when I'm with a dominant woman. I'm looking for casual partners for play as I explore, friends to talk to in order to expand my horizons, and maybe eventually someone I can be with permanently." For likes and dislikes? Fill out the check boxes. Even if you don't write well, you can select check boxes, and do the likes/dislikes/loves/hates/lives for/hard limits just fine. When I read profiles, I look first at their vanilla things. Then at their kinks. That tells me whether I'm going to message him or not, and if I do message him, whether it's as friends, or with the potential for play, or what. It's not about subtlety - as another woman said, I don't really care to be a service Top. I do want to know what my partners enjoy - or don't - but I don't care about some stranger's idea of perfection. I think that kind of thing is pretty limiting anyway, and it's a large turn-off when I try to see if I want to talk to someone, and am faced with their fantasies. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'. That is, Dommes who don't want wimps. Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man? I mean, it's such an enormous paradox. You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner. How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind? I don't think it's a paradox. On the other hand, it's not what I'm looking for either. I have no interest in wimps, but I do love the full-on, submissive in every area of life kind of man. That doesn't mean he has to be a doormat, or dependent upon me for everything, but submissive no matter what, with no desire to lead in anything? Mmmmmm. Tasty. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer OK, assume you've found such a sub anyway, and now he's your partner. Or one of your partners. You don't want him to be an automaton - if you did, you'd be happy with a blow-up doll. You want him to have his own brain and his own desires. But he's got to want them just so much, but no more. The level of his desires has to be perfectly tuned - too much, and he's dominating you; too little, and he's a bore and you might as well stick with your vibe. I don't have a vibe, anyway. ;) I want a man who has wants and desires, and wants them less than he wants to please me, yes. I make sure that my subs are taken care of - I expect them to make sure I'm taken care of. However, I don't feel threatened or dominated when he expresses his wants, desires, needs. I like strong opinions - as long as he understands that I'll make the decisions I make, and that's not always going to be to pander to his every whim, then where's the conflict? quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer The clincher for me re that is that enormous and still-growing thread on hetero men sucking cock. I've seen the same answer, time and again, from Dommes - just as I've had it from past vanilla girlfriends: "I want to see you aroused, but against your will". How the fack does that work, exactly? I have no idea how that works. I do know that I enjoy it when my subs do things for me that I know they hate, but that they're happy to do because they know it makes me happy. It's not a matter of arousing, it's a matter of the demonstration, by the action, that they're putting me ahead of their own desires. It's a real turn-on. And gives me a good reason to fulfill some of his dreams too.

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