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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 7:14:26 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

I have the solution to the questions you raise in this profile in two words:  Geisha boys!

How do you look with little sticks poking out of your hair?


I for one, look fabulous. 


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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 7:31:51 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

I have the solution to the questions you raise in this profile in two words:  Geisha boys!

How do you look with little sticks poking out of your hair?


I for one, look fabulous. 



Tell it, BishieBoy!! 

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 7:39:47 AM   
Venatrix


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Looks like PforH isn't the only cheeky boy around here.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 8:06:01 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I can't fault you on everything else, Wickad, but for two things.  The first:

A submissive man competes with other men and wins in the arena of men ... and then comes home to a woman he sees as dominant to him and submits.  The idea of winning in the 'arena of men' and then not being able to submit is only an issue if a man believes that by submitting to a woman makes him less than the other men.  If you believe that submitting to a woman makes you more (smarter, controlled, braver, etc) then what is the real problem?

True, though it hasn't been "the arena of men" for quite a few decades, now.  Or at least, quite a lot less so.  In practice, sub males compete against people of both sexes in many, perhaps most, walks of life - and the only situation in which he lets go of all that and submits is with his Domme. 

That's quite a contradiction, I'd have thought.  Aren't there going to be practical, day-to-day consequences, to be worked through?  More fundamentally, isn't there a bundle of psychological contradictions that needs to be resolved?

Or maybe I'm creating a bucketful of hypothetical problems that don't exist in practice.  I'm assured I'm quite adept at that.



The contradictions are internal primarily and yes, that requires time and experience to make sense of everything but with most thing in life this is true.

Finding a good match for yourself is the best step in this process and knowing yourself well is the it's equal partner. Without either of these life continues to be full of contradictions and confusion.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 8:11:59 AM   
MISTRESSKUMA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

The only way this is a paradox is if men believe women are inferior. 
Wickad



agreed. if there's equality (which people will generally spaz out and attest vehemently to believeing in if asked) then there shouldn't be any sort of paradox here. if submitting to a woman makes you less of a man after you've competed and won brilliantly in the "world of men," then that says something about the way you truly view the relationships between men and women. that's saying that she is inferior to the men you've battled with all day, so then why submit to her in the first place? i can sort of see this as the flip side of how it's sometimes assumed that submission on the part of a female to a male is just some sort of biological default.

also, i wouldn't say it's just a thing about Dommes to want their subs to do things they don't want to do, you hear all the time about the same being done by Doms. =p no one ever questions when a femsub does something for her Dom that she may be reluctant about, and she doesn't get special points for it, it's all chalked up to her "need to please" her Dom; even if she doesn't always like everything they do together, she does it to please him, and therein lies her reward, or whatever. =p

i imagine being a Domme is complicated, to say the least. =p




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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 8:15:53 AM   
MISTRESSKUMA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub
Many (most?) Dommes want to see male subs doing something the subs don't want to do, but want the subs to simply enjoy the fact that it is making the Domme excited. 
I hope that isn't true of most dominas.  I definitely wouldn't want a situation where he is always ambivalent or hesitant in doing what I need or ask.   In fact, I think a relationship only has long term potential if the desires/kinks are compatible.  For myself, submission with minimal friction would be ideal.  Sure I get amused by occasionally thinking of something out of left field, but mostly what excites me is his being a compatible sub, not one I need to coerce/ test/push, etc.  M


Who cares what other subbies and their mistresses like. why do you care so much about what other subbies like in their mistress? both parties like it that way so mind your business.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 8:18:40 AM   
MISTRESSKUMA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527



I'm going to encourage you to look very very closely at yourself and try to figure out how, exactly, in the cold hard light of day submitting is "unmanning" you. I can guarantee you that that is not the only possible interpretation so why do YOU interpret it that way? I think you've got a nasty problem buried down deep in there that's going to need to be brought out into the open and dealt with. Might as well start now.



Quite a number of bottoms have issues with women and I agree with you in the fact that they should deal with those issues before anything else or else they will wonder why they can never have luck finding compatible partners.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 8:19:59 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

Looks like PforH isn't the only cheeky boy around here.


/blush


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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 8:58:07 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer




Shakti:
No. As with other posts I've seen you make, I know full well you have no fantasies about unconsenting partners, nor subs who have conflicts about being submissive. Maybe some Dommes who are 'new to living as Dommes' get a buzz out of it, but I could see it draining the hell out of them eventually. In fact, I could imagine it being downright embittering and disheartening.
The difference between someone who gets true joy from pleasing me and someone who has to force himself is just night and day--and I'm not interested in the guy who has to force himself. Life is just too short. If you want to be miserable, get a dayjob, not a domme.

. . . All that is how come I ended up here on this website in the first place.  If you need to be a sub, get on with it, because life's too short. 



There is so much real estate in between a submissive who is DYING to do all kinds of acts (and even specific acts, if you want totally inflexible) and a man who wants nothing to do with any of those acts and does them because the woman he is with finds them hot.  In addition, a man who feels "conflicted" about those acts (not just love/hate, but love/SELF HATRED and loathing and disgust - total ambivalence, "I am a freak" attitude) is different from a man who finds things challenging, difficult, scary, uncomfortable, or that they make him *vulnerable* but he's still willing to do them.

So you don't have to look at a man who is way on the other end of the scale and hates S&M, hates submitting, hates being tied up, but loves his woman so he "tolerates" them in a "yes, dear," manner or she has to manipulate him into doing it.  As a woman who has experience dominating lots of non kinky men, let me assure that the reality is that most men find sexual (or sexually-laced) games of this kind to be *interesting* at the least, scary for sure, but anything that makes their woman *hot* is considered a plus.  A woman that likes to tie a guy up in bed?  Hot damn, they line up! Of course, when they find out it doesn't mean getting blindfolded and blow jobs, they realize there's some work involved when you are dealing with a bit of a sadist, but most men have a very, very strong drive to perform, to please, and to be brave for their lady. If they approach it that way, most come away from the experience with a sense of excitement and pride about it, and find the power exchange, overall, to be a positive thing.  They just don't have the emotional energy to do it ALL the time, and they have more limits out of the gate; the strap-on ain't coming out on the second date. But there are options.  I generally am only attracted to outgoing and ambitious men, but in my experience, I haven't found many men who are not very happy to be dating a woman who is "sexually kinky."

This could also be true for me because before I knew much about what S&M was, or that "submissive" men existed, my goal was to learn how to get men to do this without freaking them out and without making them think I was crazy; so integrated into my style is a very caring, cautious approach for the bdsm-ignorant, a lot of encouragement, and a lot of patience. For me, it's not about the intensity of the acts, it's about the authenticity of "authentic vulnerability" - if a man being restrained and blindfolded gets him to that place, I'm all game.  Sure, I like to go a lot further with that, but I have time. There's no rush. Pushing that envelope a little at a time is a wonderful, patient game and a great learning experience and builder of intimacy.

The drawbacks of a longterm relationship of this kind with a totally non kinky person do outweigh the benefits, however.  But, the point of this message is that there's a LOT of "types" of men who have varying levels of interest in S&M or power exchange, and one "breed" of them is wired such that they don't necessarily enjoy acts x,y and z - they enjoy enduring acts x, y and z for a woman that wants so bad to do those acts TO HIM.  That connection and chemistry is what makes it hot for him. And those acts - they do make him feel some level of aroused and vulnerable at the same time - and he knows that a kinky woman, a sadist, thrives on that side of him - so in the process of submitting, he makes sure he does not hide that.  After all, she loves his reactions.  T

This is much different from the submissive that just wants acts x, y and z done to him and he's waiting to find a woman - any woman - to say yes. Again, that's an extreme, but there are many more shades of that type closer to that end of the scale.

Akasha


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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 9:18:54 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

But, the point of this message is that there's a LOT of "types" of men who have varying levels of interest in S&M or power exchange, and one "breed" of them is wired such that they don't necessarily enjoy acts x,y and z - they enjoy enduring acts x, y and z for a woman that wants so bad to do those acts TO HIM.  That connection and chemistry is what makes it hot for him. And those acts - they do make him feel some level of aroused and vulnerable at the same time - and he knows that a kinky woman, a sadist, thrives on that side of him - so in the process of submitting, he makes sure he does not hide that.  After all, she loves his reactions. 

Akasha



This. 

...

My Lady wants to do needle play - scares the holy living shit out of me...but I will endure it for Her and -want- to because She wants to.  Other things, we meet in the middle - I enjoy spanking at least as much as She does, but it still brings me to that vulnerable place where She thrives so it works for our dynamic. 

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 10/22/2008 9:19:18 AM >


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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 9:33:26 AM   
PeonForHer


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Yup, I'm going to vote for that. Here's one way to break it down...

#1) You are a smart, competent, achiever of a guy
#2) You find some woman who thrills you and to whom you wish to submit
#3) You turn all of those "smart, competent, achiever" abilities of yours to this new goal of submitting
#4) You excel at your new goal of submission the same as you did all your "other" goals.

Seriously, what is the problem here? How is you setting a goal for yourself and achieving it in any way "unmanly"?

 
- I didn't say that it was "unmanly".  That was said 'for me'.  To repeat my comment to MistressKuma, I don't have to try to be man, because I already am one.  Point 4) of your list is fine by me.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 9:37:46 AM   
PeonForHer


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In addition, a man who feels "conflicted" about those acts (not just love/hate, but love/SELF HATRED and loathing and disgust - total ambivalence, "I am a freak" attitude) is different from a man who finds things challenging, difficult, scary, uncomfortable, or that they make him *vulnerable* but he's still willing to do them.
 
OK, Akasha.  The truth is, "self-hatred" is probably too strong a word for it, regards my own feelings.  "Vulnerable but still willing" - is nearer.  But I don't know enough, yet, to be absolutely sure of the difference.



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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 10:01:02 AM   
PeonForHer


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Quite a number of bottoms have issues with women and I agree with you in the fact that they should deal with those issues before anything else or else they will wonder why they can never have luck finding compatible partners.

I think leadership makes a good point there, Mistresskuma, though to say for a third time: I don't have to try to be a man because I already am one.  (That's not just "a line", either - it comes as a result of a lot of hard experiences that I won't bore everyone with.)  The corollary of it, though, seems pretty obvious to me:  I don't have issues about other men being more "manly" in any number of ways, nor do I have issues with women.   The "Peeboy" you've created in order to argue with here obviously does have such issues, but I don't. 

However if I did have issues on matters relating to my relationships with women, I'd look long and hard at them and get the input of others if I possibly could.  Which is one major reason I use this forum, of course. 

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 10:03:25 AM   
Coupleofwhats


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:


Then I read of Dommes who want to find 'real men who are subs'. That is, Dommes who don't want wimps. Fine - but are such Dommes aware of just how much of a contradiction they're asking for in such a man? I mean, it's such an enormous paradox. You, the sub, have succeeded in a male culture that demands that you compete and win yet, somehow, you have to reconcile that with submitting to your female partner. How could that be anything but difficult for any human mind?



The only way this is a paradox is if men believe women are inferior. If a man believes that women are dominant, or superior (though I'm not talking about 'FemSuperiority here), then there is no problem. A submissive man competes with other men and wins in the arena of men ... and then comes home to a woman he sees as dominant to him and submits. The idea of winning in the 'arena of men' and then not being able to submit is only an issue if a man believes that by submitting to a woman makes him less than the other men. If you believe that submitting to a woman makes you more (smarter, controlled, braver, etc) then what is the real problem?


Oh my god, I love you! Well said!

I really don't get why so many submissives think that submission = a complete lack of strength/sexiness. A large part of what draws me to submissive men is their strength. If you're begging and groveling and calling yourself an "it" all the time, that leaves my panties dry as the Sahara.

I think of those kinds of guys as lazy submissives. They want to get to the part where they're beaten down without having to actually go through the process of being broken down. But what they fail to understand (or care about) is that I get off on the part they're trying to skip. Also... it's just weird to walk up to someone and be like "Oh, I bow to you!! I'll do whatever you want!" We're still two people trying to forge a connection: act accordingly.

A good submissive approaches compatible Dominants: he cares about being able to make this person happy.
I can't even count the amount of times someone has come up to me and announced they were ready to be my Cuckold Slave/Faceseat/some other thing that doesn't interest me. It's happened at parties, after I've just beaten someone else bloody. Some guy who can't take any sort of pain will just waltz up and propose that we engage in his type of play, for no reason other than he thought I looked hot in my latex. And if you say "That's not my thing," that just starts the begging. Ugh.

< Message edited by Coupleofwhats -- 10/22/2008 10:04:50 AM >


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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 10:06:04 AM   
PeonForHer


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Thanks, TJJ.  That's sound and cuts through a lot for me.  Though, I've a feeling there's a big difference between contradictions and confusion: confusion needs sorting out, contradictions (or some of them, anyway) might just have to be recognised as such, then managed. 

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 10:30:52 AM   
PeonForHer


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I really don't get why so many submissives think that submission = a complete lack of strength/sexiness. A large part of what draws me to submissive men is their strength. If you're begging and groveling and calling yourself an "it" all the time, that leaves my panties dry as the Sahara.
 
Well thank god for that.  Apart from "panties" though.  "Knickers" are preferable.



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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 10:44:40 AM   
Coupleofwhats


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I really don't get why so many submissives think that submission = a complete lack of strength/sexiness. A large part of what draws me to submissive men is their strength. If you're begging and groveling and calling yourself an "it" all the time, that leaves my panties dry as the Sahara.

Well thank god for that. Apart from "panties" though. "Knickers" are preferable.




"Panties" probably just sounds as ridiculous to you as "knickers" does to me.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 11:17:09 AM   
Steponme73


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I think there is a lot of truth in what has been posted.  For me being competetive in the Vanilla world with other men is no problem.  I am very competetive by nature.  Coming home to submit to a woman (not just any woman), is not problem either if I view her as superior to me. That part is all easy.
The part that is hard as I see it is the wants and needs of both parties.  There are lots of acts I would endure for my owner if it pleased her.  However, there will be a point where I will go no further.  She should know where that point is and not ask for anything more.  The dominant/submissive thing is a two way street.  I do everything in my power to satisfy her needs.  She in turn rewards me or punishes me for my efforts.  If I do good, I get rewarded, if I don't I get punished.
I think it is true that a lot of the Dommes on this board want men with an Alpha personality...warrior slaves.  And that is fine, there are men out there that can fulill that need.  However, even most warrior slaves will have limits.  And that is what we are really talking about...where are the limits.
As it has been said many times before, that is established up front.  If it is then there will never be much of a problem. 
The position of a submissive as I see it, is to please his superior to the best of his ability.  He is there to serve her, wait on her and to do her bidding.  She will know what turns him on and what does not...she has the control to exercise those options at her will. 
I see the problems and understand what the OP had posted and I agree with him in reading the profiles here.  And to asnwer the question, "Is being a sub a subtle art?"  Yes, I believe it is.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 11:33:20 AM   
PeonForHer


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Well, for what it's worth, "pants" sounds even more ridiculous to me - both in the US sense of "trousers" and the UK sense of "shorts".  I just think of dogs with big tongues lolling out and bad breath.

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RE: Is being a sub a subtle art? - 10/22/2008 11:57:40 AM   
PeonForHer


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Thanks for that, Step.  It's interesting to hear the "day-to-day practicalities" angle from a sub. 
The part that is hard as I see it is the wants and needs of both parties.  There are lots of acts I would endure for my owner if it pleased her.  However, there will be a point where I will go no further.  She should know where that point is and not ask for anything more.  The dominant/submissive thing is a two way street. 

Clearly, then, for you and your partner, it's an evolving process.  Makes sense - one would expect that in any relationship anywhere.

 I think it is true that a lot of the Dommes on this board want men with an Alpha personality...warrior slaves. 

It's just as well that most, apparently, want someone nearer towards the middle.  Some, of course, like the wimps - hmm, maybe I'll wear my glasses more often . .
.

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