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Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:13:26 PM

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...i've been saving this post for a while.......however, as we now have a poster who characterises abortion as stab stab sucky suck, and calls it feticide i figure it's time.

Pro-life people are anti-Christian. That's the hypothesis. Let me explain.

Way back in the Garden of Eden, God placed the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge there and told Adam and Eve to leave them alone. Why? Why put them where Adam and Eve could get to them? i mean, God has the whole of creation to play with....so why put them where Adam and Eve can even get close? There's only one possible explanation that jibes with God not being an utter bastard. Free Will.
God doesn't want people to follow because they have no choice. He doesn't want people to worship Him blindly. It has to be a decision. There has to be Free Will.
Now the pro-life position, as it applies to changing legislation, removes choice. Removes the element of free will from the equation. That position seeks to do something that God Himself forebore to do. Remove the element of choice. This is clearly hubris.
Thus, my hypothesis runs, those that seek to change legislation to make abortion illegal are anti-Christian. They have forgotten the first principle.......free will.

Discuss

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:16:50 PM

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I think I have a fever for dipping into these waters...

Pro-life doesn't remove choice, it removes one single choice. There are still other choices.

Cali
(and no, I'm not pro-life, that was just my reaction to the background info presented)

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AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:21:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Pro-life doesn't remove choice, it removes one single choice. There are still other choices.

.......not sure exactly what you mean here Cali. i made sure to point out my hypothesis applied strictly to those Pro-Lifers who seek to change legislation. The choice involved is, at the first part of the decision tree, binary. Abortion or continue with the pregnancy. Changing the legislation to make abortion illegal makes that decision...well, not a decision. One option does not a decision make.

(in reply to CalifChick)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:40:46 PM

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Being pro-life means that you think the secular government shouldn't sanction feticide.

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

As a pro-life non-Christian, however, I think it's just a matter of protecting the life of every individual who has not committed heinous crimes against society. I think an individual life shouldn't be terminated without a valid reason, and I think that the individual whose life is in question should have the opportunity to mount a defense. The Garden of Eden has nothing to do with it.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:51:26 PM

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People always have the power to choose.

That does not make all choices equal. Nor are all choices inherently permissible.

Some choices, such as infanticide (which is what abortion-on-demand is when all the politically correct, self-indulgent, and basically foolish rationalizations are stripped away), are simply wrong.

Christianity has nothing to do with it. Abortion-on-demand is a wrong choice.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:57:56 PM

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Spoken like a true Man who will never have to answer the question on abortion and choice.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 3:59:03 PM

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I have an idea, if you don't approve of abortion don't have one. In the great tradition of this nation I expect you to not stick your nose into anyone else's business.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:00:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Being pro-life means that you think the secular government shouldn't sanction feticide.

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

I'm pro-life. I'm also pro-choice. Because being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-death. To suggest otherwise is offensive bullshit.

Secondly, it's utterly charming of you to suggest that abortion should remain more dangerous like in Antiquity just to teach those bitches a thing or two

.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:01:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Abortion-on-demand is a wrong choice.

It's the right choice for those that make it. Next!

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(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:06:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I have an idea, if you don't approve of abortion don't have one. In the great tradition of this nation I expect you to not stick your nose into anyone else's business.

The people you're arguing to think abortion is *murder*. Does it sound good to you to say "If you don't approve of murder don't murder anyone, but don't stop other people from doing it"?

That argument has never convinced and will never convince anyone.

< Message edited by ozymandias22 -- 10/27/2008 4:07:51 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:16:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Being pro-life means that you think the secular government shouldn't sanction feticide.

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

I see.

So abortion is OK as long as it is not govenment-sanctioned.

Which then brings the question that if it is not government-sanctioned does that mean illegal? Does not illegal mean that government is still making the choice?

So then I guess it is OK for it to be government controlled as long as it is controlled in the way that you approve of.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:22:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ozymandias22

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I have an idea, if you don't approve of abortion don't have one. In the great tradition of this nation I expect you to not stick your nose into anyone else's business.

The people you're arguing to think abortion is *murder*. Does it sound good to you to say "If you don't approve of murder don't murder anyone, but don't stop other people from doing it"?

That argument has never convinced and will never convince anyone.

Precisely!

(in reply to ozymandias22)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:22:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Some choices, such as infanticide (which is what abortion-on-demand is when all the politically correct, self-indulgent, and basically foolish rationalizations are stripped away), are simply wrong.

Except for the vast disagreement among scientists, theologians, philosophers, politicians, and the general public about the point at which life actually begins.

Apparently you have the answer that has eluded so many.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:23:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i've been saving this post for a while.......however, as we now have a poster who characterises abortion as stab stab sucky suck, and calls it feticide i figure it's time.

Pro-life people are anti-Christian. That's the hypothesis. Let me explain.

Way back in the Garden of Eden, God placed the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge there and told Adam and Eve to leave them alone. Why? Why put them where Adam and Eve could get to them? i mean, God has the whole of creation to play with....so why put them where Adam and Eve can even get close? There's only one possible explanation that jibes with God not being an utter bastard. Free Will.
God doesn't want people to follow because they have no choice. He doesn't want people to worship Him blindly. It has to be a decision. There has to be Free Will.
Now the pro-life position, as it applies to changing legislation, removes choice. Removes the element of free will from the equation. That position seeks to do something that God Himself forebore to do. Remove the element of choice. This is clearly hubris.
Thus, my hypothesis runs, those that seek to change legislation to make abortion illegal are anti-Christian. They have forgotten the first principle.......free will.

Discuss

I'm in agreement with you, Philo. I believe in free will as well. I'm a mixture of pro-choice/pro-life. Would I personally have an abortion? I couldn't say because I've never been in the position to have to make that decision.

P.S. Please give MsW. a big hug and kiss for me once She's home again. *smiles*

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:24:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Spoken like a true Man who will never have to answer the question on abortion and choice.

Men have a vested interest in abortion. Or do you imagine that all aborted fetuses are female?

Besides, as the laws currently stand, a woman can terminate a pregnancy without the father's consent or even knowledge. That child wasn't created by the woman alone. That's pretty messed up.

(in reply to SilverMark)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:30:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Being pro-life means that you think the secular government shouldn't sanction feticide.

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

I see.

So abortion is OK as long as it is not govenment-sanctioned.

Which then brings the question that if it is not government-sanctioned does that mean illegal? Does not illegal mean that government is still making the choice?

So then I guess it is OK for it to be government controlled as long as it is controlled in the way that you approve of.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. Government control and government sanction are two different things, and in this case they are polar opposites.

I think that feticide is a form of homicide and should be treated as such. Doctors who perform abortions are committing homicide IMO. I think that the only justifiable reason to willingly terminate a pregnancy is if continuing the pregnancy will endanger the mother's life. In that case I still think that the fetus is being killed, but I don't think that pregnancy should be a death sentence. It's still a tragedy, but it would be a tragedy either way.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:31:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Men have a vested interest in abortion. Or do you imagine that all aborted fetuses are female?

Besides, as the laws currently stand, a woman can terminate a pregnancy without the father's consent or even knowledge. That child wasn't created by the woman alone. That's pretty messed up.

If the pregnancy were a result of rape or incest you think the man should have a say in what happens to the fetus? IMO, the only say I'd give THAT man was if I used a sharp or dull knife to ensure he'd never rape again.

< Message edited by ncprincess -- 10/27/2008 4:38:31 PM >

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:36:31 PM

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Joined: 11/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Being pro-life means that you think the secular government shouldn't sanction feticide.

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

I was going to stay out of this, I really was..but..you got me.

Yes women have taken ergot and other poisons for centuries to terminate a pregnancy. Know what it is called? Abortion. It fact it is what the word was coined to cover..the taking of poisons to abort an infant at ANY STAGE. Sometimes it worked..Sometimes the Mother and Baby died, sometimes the baby was born and left out to die in the weather, snow, sleet, balmy summer eve, torrential rain, eaten by rats, dogs, pecked to death by crows..bye bye. THAT is a much crueler death in my opinion.

There are very few women who waltz into a clinic and have an abortion like they are going to have their nails or hair done.It is an agonizing choice that leaves scars on your heart and mind like nothing else can. At 55 I still hurt over the abortion that was ordered for me to rid me of my fathers "gift". Worse however would have been bringing it into the world..severely handicapped children weren't adopted back in those days and there was no way I could have cared for it and I would have killed to keep it away from my parents. What they did to me was bad enough.

Everyone has a right to life, but one would hope it would be a good life. Not one of starvation, torture, beating, drug addiction, abuse. So many have latched onto the "socialism" supposedly in the current campaign, but consider if you will..every UM that is born UNWANTED and abandoned to the foster care system will have have its care paid for, is an Um who will grow up on your dime, need medicaid, food, clothing, education housing all paid for by your taxes. There are just not enough Foster Homes, Adoptive parents and there is no way to force someone to take care of their own Um if it is unwanted. Few are the women who would be able to look at an Um who was the product of Rape, Incest, Abuse and hold them tight. I know in my tender years I could not have.

I don't agree with abortion as a means of birth control, but I support a woman's right to her body and to her right to make choices, even the hard ones. No one else knows if she is able to handle a child, and there are too many unwanted children already in this world.. Maybe some of the right to lifers should adopt all of them, before demanding that more are brought into the world unloved and unwanted. Better a quick death before birth than a slow torturous one afterward. We have too many children tortured to death yearly as it is by parents who don't want them.

poenkitten

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:38:42 PM

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From "The Birdcage" (Discussing the killing of abortion doctors)

"Oh, I know what you're going to say. "If you kill the mother, the fetus dies too." But the fetus is going to be aborted anyway, so why not let it go down with the ship? "

I'm so glad we're discussing this topic. We're sure to reach consensus. After this we can talk about circumcision and why fat people don't lose weight.

_____________________________

Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
-Virginia Woolf

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:50:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Now the pro-life position, as it applies to changing legislation, removes choice. Removes the element of free will from the equation. That position seeks to do something that God Himself forebore to do. Remove the element of choice. This is clearly hubris. Thus, my hypothesis runs, those that seek to change legislation to make abortion illegal are anti-Christian. They have forgotten the first principle.......free will.

Ignoring the theological stuffing, there remains the detail that we have lots of laws that "remove choice" in that way. For example, laws against assault "remove choice" in the matter of popping someone in the nose.

Or do they. Really?

Note to the paranoid: I'm saying his argument is bogus, not supporting the removal of choice.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/27/2008 4:59:20 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)

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