TigerNINTails
Posts: 178
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
Well, after reading 9 pages of this thread, I felt I'd weigh in with my opinion on the differences between BDSM and Gor, having been a proponent of M/s (Master/slave and/or Mistress/slave) relationships for quite sometime (e.g. All of my adult life, and having had an awakening to "kink" even as early as 6 years of age, though not particularly due to anything but rought treatment as a child). For any who do give a crap, all of my adult life encompasses 18 years, while factual practice time in BDSM specifically (which is why I identify as a BDSMer in the first place) would be around 24 or so years.
I must make a disclaimer that while this is my opinion, and often shared by real life practitioners of various forms of alternative sexualities, it is not everyone's, though, I'm going to be rather bold and state that it probably should be, as there are strict definitions for things for good reasons.
Cats and Dogs are defined as feline and canine due to the fact that to define them differently would render language useless as a means to convey ideas, thought processes, realities, discoveries, knowledge etc. et.al. A woman is a woman, a man is a man, bondage is bondage, discipline is discipline, dominance is dominance, submission is submission etc. There is really not much room for variance in semantics. On that much, at least, most (if not all) people agree.
However, based on the perceptions of what things are (eg. What is Gorean? or What is M/s?) and how to describe them, this is where we see disagreements, as it seems no two individuals, though similar, really practice their Gorean, or practice their M/s or D/s or even practice or more accurately "utilize" BDSM in the quite the same manner.
When it comes down to the factual ROE (Rules Of Engagement), this is where people differ. And rightfully so, as human beings, based on how they were raised, cultural impacts of where they were raised etc. have differing views on how they and others around them should be treated. To me, the differences of ROE is very much a matter of perception, which is a learned behaviour.
So all that said, this is my view, based on my experience, not coming from other people's books, but from my observations of human nature, which could be and has been described as plain and simply "Natural human behaviour as it applies to specific environmental stimuli." Further, I wish to warn people, especially those that won't sit down to learn something anyway, but like to bitch about long posts in ignorance of the value of it, due to whatever factor (though I tend to think it's sheer laziness  ), that this is indeed going to be one helluva long post.
I also want to say that there are many here I agree with, and those that I don't agree with, will be disagreed with in an appropriate manner, and if they take the time to read this post, it will be obvious where I disagree, and why.
I will also attempt to be as clear as possible, and this might also be why this post will be long.
This is how I see BDSM.
Bondage & Discipline and Sadism & Masochism are two completely unrelated (other than their obvious inclusion under the umbrella acronym of BDSM) concepts which complement one another rather well. Bondage & Discipline are descriptors of tools utilized by most of those engaged in D/s relationships, M/s relationships (and I'll also explain why I distinguish between the two further on), as well as tools that can be utilized to further the enjoyment of S&M practices (e.g. The practices of inflicting pain and suffering, physical, mental or otherwise on an individual for the sheer sake of experiencing a rush, or sexual gratification purely from the act, usually fueled by the responses of the individual on which they inflict said pain and suffering, as well as the practices of receiving pain and suffering at the hand of another human being, physical, mental or otherwise, fueled by the differing sensations of pain which are received differently within the mind and in the neurological processes of the person receiving it).
But therein lies your answer when it comes to the separation of Gor and BDSM. Gor is indeed a series of stories which are indeed written in a fictional context, and of course, people have latched onto the concepts of Gor as a means to an end in establishing a "demeanor" (depiction of oneself to others) for practicing consensual slavery. Here. On Terra. Earth. Our little tiny dust mote of cosmic real estate.
In the books however, there are almost always totally exclusive condonements of non-consensual enslavement. There is not one example where a girl or boy (unless circumstances forced the so-called choice) factually "consented" implicitly (meaning of their own volition, coming to the decision on their own) decided to beg to become slave in the first place. Once there, sure, plenty of examples of consensually choosing a specific Master over another, but none was consensual to begin with. Hence, condonement of non-consensual slavery. This argument, honestly, is bulletproof. I've read plenty of the books, know from where I speak, and don't speak on something unless I do. If I don't know, I'll tell you, "I don't know."
To get back on track, BDSM is an umbrella acronym to describe the four parts and two blanket concepts of Bondage & Discipline and Sadism & Masochism. Strict adherence to the "societal inclinations" of Gor to avoid engaging in the causing a slave displeasure or pain for the sheer enjoyment of it would indeed mean that Goreans do not practice S&M (in general, as people are different, and I know plenty of Goreans, that are not role players, that have a proclivity for engaging in S&M with their kajira/kajirae), however...
They are not different from BDSM'ers in general as they do in fact engage in both bondage and disciplinary practices, and I will go out and state as a matter of fact, there are even examples in the books of when they've done this for pleasure. As for it speaking for all Goreans, well, that would be stupid. And I don't engage in stupidity knowingly.
Further, the acts of "slave rape" are in fact perfectly suited examples of engaging in Sadistic practices, and not just for punishment of a free woman that has been dishonoured, but also for the sheer enjoyment of taking a slave in a totally helpless fashion, or even to drive a disciplinary point that they are for their Owner's use, regardless of how that might be, by sharing the girl while bound with other people in the community. I can't cite a precise page, I no longer have the book, but as I recall, an example of this was in Slavegirl of Gor.
Further, as I recall, Captive of Gor provided an example of utilizing bondage, while taking pleasure from a slave. Goreans have no clear reason for stating they do not enjoy B&D. They utilize B&D in the same way that BDSM'ers utilize B&D.
I believe it was Tribesmen of Gor provided examples of the Northmen factually enjoying the torment they put to a Pirates daughter, while teaching her the place she has, by way of lashing her to an oar, and repeatedly dipping her in the sea as they made their way back home. Of course, they did not allow the carnivorous sea-sleen near her, repeatedly beating them off with oars, after all, they weren't monsters, simply men. The goal was not to scar, maim or kill, simply instruct. But they did scoff at her attempts to threaten and cajole them with her taunts, and continued to gleefully row away with her lashed to the oar. If this is not an indication of enjoyment, I'm not sure what is.
S&M would be the only real clear cultural departure between Gor and BDSM'ers in general. As a side note on this, when I was in my teen years, and practicing B&D, I actually, after understanding what it was that I was doing, what it was referred to and looking into myself, found myself identifying more with Gor, with being a Disciplinarian, and a strict one, and not really feeling an inclination to S&M. As I got older, that changed... Obviously, by the length of this post. 
So all in all, a Gorean stating they aren't at the minimum a B&D practitioner, is a liar. Now why would I outright call someone a liar?
Simple. The simple act of enslavement is to hold one in bondage. Period. To train a slave, requires not just discipline of the slave, but for the Owner to be disciplined enough to hold the slave to the discipline they inflict, to actively teach them the ropes, so to speak. Discipline is involved in all forms of M/s.
Further, there's no reason to make that much of a distinction between Gor and M/s, as they are related, and rather tightly. The Gorean aspect is cultural and societal. Not just the act of owning slaves. But because Gorean society embraces the enslavement of people, as almost all cultures did before the industrial age, and some still do, even in this "enlightened" (and I do use the term loosely) time, then Gor is also M/s or "Master/slave" oriented. This makes Gor one and the same a "Master and slave lifestyle". Very basic logic here folks. Not a large leap to make under any circumstances whatsoever. In fact, not a leap at all.
But when referring to BDSM vs. Gor, there is no comparison and the reason being is that BDSM, in my mind, to conclude how I view it, and how it's viewed by many that actually do this offline, whether they role-play the concepts or ideas online or not, is that BDSM is a set of tools, methods and a set of mindsets, or fetishes/inclinations...
It is not a lifestyle. You don't live BDSM, you utilize it. You utilize bondage, you don't live it. You might live IN bondage, as defined for one that is a captive, or slave, but you do not live bondage. You do not live Discipline, while you might live in a disciplined fashion. Or a disciplined manner. But you do not live discipline. Perhaps, like bondage, you may live IN discipline. As a slave might live in the discipline of their Owner, but you do not just live discipline. It's not a lifestyle.
S&M isn't a lifestyle either, it's an attraction or a mental proclivity to enjoy the same. Either infliction of, or receipt of pain and/or suffering, on or by another.
None of these are lifestyles. They are not a style by which you live, but clearly, Gor, with all of it's cultural mandates, strict protocols in the face of slavery, etc. this is indeed something which can (my opinion on whether it should by most not withstanding) be lived as a style of living.
D/s while it's really describing both an inclination and a choice for how you might live, and this is something where I disagree only slightly with IrishMist (Love your posts by the way, but this is a wierd I guess semantic disagreement), is also both a GROUP of personality traits and/or qualities, as well as an orientation (as people who are oriented as D's or s's do not necessarily "choose" to be this way, they simply are), may be construed as a lifestyle, because you stylize your living around the concepts of Dominance and submission, while utilizing the tools provided in B&D and/or S&M to establish your Dominance, or allow your submission to bubble forth, sometimes, needing the tools in order for one or the other to occur.
M/s, again, lifestyle, and much for the same reasons that D/s is a lifestyle. We act in a certain way, and become that, making it a lifestyle. But B&D and S&M isn't a measure of how one acts, it's a descriptor of tools, methods and enjoyments that we engage in.
BDSM is separated from Gor on two levels. Culturally, and given that anything that is not cultural in nature, or have a doctrine, loose or strict to follow, is likely not going to be considered the same as a lifestyle, or to have "culture" (meaning a way things are done within a larger group). BDSM'ers do have safety measures and protocols of a sort, that seem cultural, but these are just "best practices", which fits with BDSM being a set of tools, practices and methods for attaining that which we desire in our style of living. But it doesn't really have a culture, as most BDSM'ers are extremely free-style.
That and it's lack of that same doctrine or philosophy which is inherent in Gor, and the fact that BDSM is indeed a list of activities, and Gor is NOT a list of activities, that separates the two.
And Orion, while I agree with all else you've stated, I have to disagree with one point. Scratch that... Two points. But the first point I disagreed with was your claim that there is no condonement of non-consensual slavery in the books of Gor. The slaves did not choose to be so. Therefore, it was non-consensual. The rare slave that might have, for the purposes of settling a debt or because they needed the support and were willing to do whatever was legal for them to do so, are a moot point, as they are rare. The second point is the following:
To be capable of Dominating one person while submitting to another is the descriptive of a switch. So to state there are no switches... Is plainly false.
You can have switches, even if John Norman in his infinite wisdom did not know of the term, and therefore, did not include it in his books, or for that matter, even if he did and didn't care to.
Oh, and one more. If Gor, or the stories of Gor aren't about slavery of any sort, then why can't you read ten pages without some mention of slaves in nearly any given book, training of slaves, slave collar descriptions, etc.? Why is it a basis of economy, and a method of trade and commerce? I mean, how can a society not be "about something" when they inundate themselves WITH that something?
So all in all, the whole of the matter is that BDSM isn't a lifestyle, it's descriptor of a selection of tools, methods, fetishes and perceptions as well as sexual desires or "inclinations" which we as those engaged in the various lifestyles which encompass the tenets (also, BDSM doesn't have, and never has described "tenets", another major difference and why it's not a lifestyle) inherent in Gor, Old Guard, Victorian, M/s, D/s et. al. what the hell ever could be considered a lifestyle, utilize to further the goals of how we live.
Gor on the other hand is a lifestyle. So the biggest thing, I think, in my opinion, is for people to quit applying the word "lifestyle" to the practices and inclinations encompassed in BDSM.
As for what makes you Gorean... This question is way off topic. But all in all, it's not the tenets of Gor that makes you Gorean, or people would all identify with being Gorean based on the fact, that if they do actually apply the tenets to their life they're obviously going to identify as Gorean, because the tenets of Gor are as Iron Bear said... The mark of Man. Goreans are Men. Well, I'm not being misogynistic, I really can't stand sexism, which is why I'm not Gorean by label any longer, women are considered in my statements, if not mentioned, so I'll mention them here as proof.
Goreans are Men and Women and men and women as we recognize them here on Terra, Earth, or as they like to say on Gor... Urth. So there you have it. OF course, 99% of the upstanding world is going to relate to Gor on some level.
But if you can't IDENTIFY with Gor, it's culture, the people's involved, the attitudes involved... The decisions made, and understand them as if they are your people, when reading the books... You're not Gorean. That's my view. IF you do... Then you do. And this was Barelyanangels point. Reading the books gives insight to the peoples of Gor.
If you can't read the books to know if you identify with the culture and people of Gor, not just the principles... Then how can you possibly be Gorean? How can you know that you have similar behaviours, and perceptions, world views? You can't. That much is obvious.
Yes, I used to be Gorean, as it was the principles they espoused when it came to the warrior caste that resonated deep with me. And that's another thing... Those tenets are of the Warrior Caste, which is the Caste most spoken of in the books, uness he was speaking specifically of a culture in the books, such as the wagon peoples, or the raiders, etc.
For example, I have 9 principles that I abide by, in my slave training, and in my daily life, in as much as I can possibly help it and be mindful of exerciseing them, which really isn't that difficult. However, soemtimes, being respectful to someone that's an assjacket is a damn hard and sometimes, pointless thing to do. Those are Honesty, Integrity, Loyalty, Discipline, Respect, Mindfulness, Courage, Patience and Honour. And it's really through giving of yourself to another, selflessly, the previous 8 principles, that one gains Honour in the first place.
Honour isn't something you take for yourself, it is born unto you for what you give to others. Something to think on. Most Goreans, therefore, with little understanding of what it takes to actually have honour, really don't have any at all. This is what spurred my departure from association with the lifestyle, or the onliners, or whomever I was associating with.
I've only met one person, face to face, that I KNOW for a fact is a Gorean lifestyler in the real world that we live in, and as such, is one of only two that I've met I really respect as a person. The other is online, but lives his life according to the principles I mentioned above, and also adheres to my own principles.
I won't claim Gor, but that's for one reason only... I don't identify with the culture as I used to. Are you Gorean? I don't know... Do you identify with the overall culture of Gor and really feel like you've found the place that you should have been born into?
If your answer is yes, I'd say you are Gorean. But it takes, as others have said, soul searching and research to find that answer.
Now that I've done written a small book on the OP, and added my opinion about whether someone can claim Gor or not and stated where I stand, I damn near expect the whole of the place to do one of two things... Light up like a roman candle and people to start flinging shit at me, or for the conversation to die completely, lol.
In any case, it's all good. I'm sure there's other things that I wanted to debate or whatever, but this is quite enough.
Wicked Pleasures,
Master Tiger
P.S. Almost forgot.... Mad Rabbit... Dude! LOL... I know we've crossed blades before, but I really liked your posts. *smiles*
[Edited: Forgot to close up a point I was making, lol]
< Message edited by TigerNINTails -- 11/9/2008 6:13:32 PM >
_____________________________
Consistent Discipline Renders Punishment Unnecessary
|
RE: The differance between lifestyles - 
Profile
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread