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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:14:21 PM

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Well, I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought i would put my two cents in here. First, Obama and his friends in Congress will not outright try and ban guns. they know that won't work. They will do something like taxing the guns or banning any gun within 5 miles of a school. Something that sounds nice and reasonable, so that a large portion of the country will be wondering why some of us are screaming about the whole thing.
As far as right to bear arms is concerned, a few points probably already raised by others. Why would anyone accept "reasonable restrictions" on any right? Why is it just ok with guns? The answer is that it is not, if you can stop and think rationally about the subject.
Also, the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution because the people of the time were afraid that the government would try to take away their rights. It does not actually grant any rights, just tells the government that it is not allowed to touch those rights. Those rights are inherent with the people, and while one may chose not to exercise it, one does not lose it.
And as far as the whole "only allow the hunting or sporting guns" idea, where does it say hunting or sporting in the 2nd Amendment?

I don't trust President elect Obama, and I will be wayching him very closely to see what he tries to do. I am hopefully worrying about nothing, but the more i see the more I worry.

(in reply to Joenextdoor)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:17:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why their crime rate is so low compared to the U.S.?

I'm not talking about crime rates. I'm talking about deaths by firearm and including homicides, suicides, and accidental deaths.

That is pretty self explanitory. Your point would be?

H.

Um, that was a statement questioning your point in bringing up crime rates.

(in reply to HunterS)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:22:22 PM

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Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:

I'm well aware that there was a ton more involved in the revolution and the parliment acts and the civil war etc, it'd be a forum unto it's own if we were to go into every detail,
No...you just put in the details that you thought would support your position and no one would notice the bullshit factor.

there was no bullshit factor, I simply made an argument and provided historical and accurate, (even you admitted) points to support that argument, if the other side of the argument wants to bring up the other side of those points then they should take the initiative to do so. And you have completely derailed the entire thread.

Hell it wasn't even much of an argument in that particular thread because I was fully agreeing with the person it was directed to, it was simply stating historical instances of government using force and sanctions on it's own people to try to intimidate them into compliance.

< Message edited by Outlaw85 -- 11/13/2008 9:32:47 PM >

(in reply to HunterS)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:33:32 PM

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Joined: 10/21/2008
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quote:

I don't trust President elect Obama, and I will be wayching him very closely to see what he tries to do. I am hopefully worrying about nothing, but the more i see the more I worry.

He is not even in office yet so what the fuck have you seen that is worrying you. Bush is still president.
Would the following seem to you to be reasonable restrictions on gun ownership?
It would seem reasonable to prohibit firing a gun into the air "a la" new years eve celebrations...what goes up must come down.
Shooting from an aircraft.
Shooting from a motor vehicle.
Restricting armed robbers from possessing firearms.
Restricting insane people from possessing firearms.
Restricting children from possessing firearms except under the direct supervision of a responsible adult who is not otherwise restricted from possessing a firearm.

H.

(in reply to greyarcher315)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:40:24 PM

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Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

I don't trust President elect Obama, and I will be wayching him very closely to see what he tries to do. I am hopefully worrying about nothing, but the more i see the more I worry.

He is not even in office yet so what the fuck have you seen that is worrying you. Bush is still president.
Would the following seem to you to be reasonable restrictions on gun ownership?
It would seem reasonable to prohibit firing a gun into the air "a la" new years eve celebrations...what goes up must come down.
Shooting from an aircraft.
Shooting from a motor vehicle.
Restricting armed robbers from possessing firearms.
Restricting insane people from possessing firearms.
Restricting children from possessing firearms except under the direct supervision of a responsible adult who is not otherwise restricted from possessing a firearm.

H.

just as long as the insane person has also been found by a judge to be a danger to himself and/or others. can't persecute someone just because his brain functions differently than someone else, that in itself doesn't constitute a danger. I know plenty of bipolar people who are fully capable at any given time of realizing the consequences of their actions, who should be allowed to own fire arms, and who should be allowed to fly aircraft, something they have been prevented from doing. There are also those who are bipolar who shouldn't have guns or fly planes at all, but there are perfectly neurotypical individuals who also shouldn't be permitted those rights as well. All other points I agree with, especially Obama, who I voted for because I think 4 years of him could do our international public relations some good.

(in reply to HunterS)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:44:25 PM

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quote:

Um, that was a statement questioning your point in bringing up crime rates

If your position is that the low gun homicide rate in Japan is due to the virtual ban on private ownership of guns, your point is not made because Japan still has homicide by gun. They also have homicide by other means also. That the gun rate is lower than the U.S. is clear but the fact that it still exists shows that banning guns does not work. There are other reasons for the low murder rate in Japan but you simply want to make it a gun issue.
Japanese demographics are dramatically different than the U.S. The socio-economic disparity is dramatically different. The educational level is dramatically different. It is not as simple as you would wish to make it.

H.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:47:52 PM

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From: United States
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Wow,I went out to watch a football game and you people went off for 15 pages....it will take me a bit to catch up ,I'll see you all in a half hour or so...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to HunterS)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:49:54 PM

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Insane has a clinical definition. That is the one I am using here...or are you just trying to pick fly shit out of pepper?

H.

(in reply to Outlaw85)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:54:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

Insane has a clinical definition. That is the one I am using here...or are you just trying to pick fly shit out of pepper?

H.

no more than what you were doing with me, now you know how annoying it is, though it really wasn't my intent. There is the legal definition and the clinical definition and then there's just mental illness in general. Insane can be many different things, I just wanted you to clarify it better.

(in reply to HunterS)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 12:44:36 AM

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Handbags at fifty paces people...

Edit: Just to note...that statement isn't directed at any individual. It's to everyone who seems to be getting a little heated, name calling, the use of scathing sarcasm, otherwise throwing their toys out their pram and trying to write things people will find offensive. There really is no call for it...

Aren't we all adults with the ability to discuss rationally and politely, using linguistics and knowledge rather than verbal attacks in one form or another?

So...original topic, gun sales being up since Obama won the presidency and why?

< Message edited by Kailen -- 11/14/2008 12:49:02 AM >

(in reply to Outlaw85)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 2:39:41 AM

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I think this has become the thread that wouldn't die!....
I have heard the NRA, and the Constitutionalists etc. for years spreading the fear of gun control and have rarely seen anything
that leads me to believe that anyone's guns are ever going to be carried away. The gun lobby is VERY strong and the Constitution,
although I do believe the intent was different than what is over stated again and again, has protected the rights of gun owners.
I don't much care one way or the other and I live in an area that in the 70's once passed a local ordinance that You Had To Own
a Gun for each Household!....Make your choice...own a gun or not...The rest is paranoid bullshit spread to and by those that have an interest
in guns and that really love to think that their is a huge conspiracy against them. If you choose to own one...Be Responsible!
The statistics of actual use for self protection are amazingly small and if memory serves normally ends up in catastrophe due to mistaken identity.
As a much younger man I did work for my father's law firm and one of his specialties was defending those accused of murder....in that time and I
did some work on 3 or 4 cases never saw a gun used to kill that didn't have an idiot on at least one end of the gun....you can guess which end!
If you love guns, collect guns, hunt, trap or skeet shoot or if it makes you feel better....arm yourself to the teeth and enjoy it!...

(in reply to Kailen)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 3:36:32 AM

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In case no one else mentions it, guns are products, people need to buy things to keep the economy going, many guns are made in the US, sales equal jobs, it's all good economics. Buy a gun, stop a recession, and possibly a mugger.

(in reply to Evility)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 4:20:00 AM

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From: Tamaris
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Has anyone aside from those that have, ever considered what it is to kill someone ? I mean have you actually thought about the action, what you are actually doing ? You might think in defending yourself only lethal force is necessary, but the only force that is required is enough force to deter someone from their intent, tell me, non lethal force is not good enough, tasers, CS gas and such do deter, and in deterring someone, by want of them being unable to see or function with some level of normality, that is enough time for one to get away, and leave them with their discomfort.

When someone discharges a firearm at someone, you are releasing lethal force, a force that is devastastating in it's action, rarely ever is it wounding, like the old western movies where an injured person can carry lead and keep on fighting, it is not like that, they must be deaf as a post to start with, but that is an aside.

On pulling a trigger, you release a force, a force that makes itself known by an unfriendly recoil as the projectile leaves the launching pad with an ear splitting sound and smell of burnt chemical. The projectile on contact pierces through flesh, muscle and bone and any organs that are in the way, thus destroying their action. The target though a possible assailant and despite their mind, is a marvel of human engineering, a marvel that has taken many years to grow. In that growing the being of that marvel has experienced many things, loved and been loved, been of benefit to others. The joy of the parents at their birth, all the years of growing and learning, tell me, you would be ok with taking all that away ?

Perhaps even it is just the gun, the impersonal weapon that from a distance seperates you from the target, you pull a simple lever on a weapon and from a distance you see the action, but do you think of that action. Can your conscience handle what you are actually doing, or do you think the lump of heavy smelly metal you hold cancels that out.

But what is a gun aside from a weapon, aside from it's devastating potential, what does it's possession do for a person, could it be likened in action to those that seek the macho image, a gun being a penis extension.

What is it this fascination with guns, is it that some see, is it an expression of masculinity or an example of paranoia. Paranoia in that you see a situation that might or might not happen, a fantasy perhaps.

What is it with guns, why the fascination ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to HunterS)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 4:42:19 AM

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Let me see if I can make this very clear....if it comes down to making a choice between me and them....it's NOT going to be me. They should think about the ramifications of putting me in such a position of having to make that choice.

I'm not sure where you came up with the "rarely ever is it wounding" thing. I can tell you that where I live we have shootings every single day...some gang bangers are on their third or fourth go round even. Seems they have some learning disabilities. Homicide is far more rare.

The joy of their parents at their birth? Surely you jest? You seem to live in a different world.

Penis extension....puh-lease........

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 5:03:40 AM

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Who ever came up with this penis extension crap. Are all women gun owners really crossdressers?
The Indians were scalping so be banned hatchets
Then they used bow and arrows. We banned those.
So then they used stolen guns. We ban those
Now they use Casinos. I guess they are next to be banned.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 5:12:03 AM

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Thousands die in automobile crashes each year. Ban em..

2nd ammendment... Well regulate militia... free state..shall not be infringed...

Without the 2nd , there is no constitution, what you think holds it all together...words...NO guns, and those that have them.

Ask those who had their guns taken from them if they feel safe and secure.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 5:14:29 AM

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From: Tamaris
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I live in a world where I think about my actions and would prefer a world with much less paranoia. Just to remember something, the quest for guns is serving and lining the pockets of the very same people that profit from war. Those very same people who seem to like stirring up conflict and sending mother's sons and daughters to fight and die in other lands.

Every bullet a serviceman fires is profit for the suppliers and more tax out of your pockets and what does it actually achieve. There were always be a human population to use, people to take the places of the unfortunate and useless wars to fight, as it benefits the weapon makers.

Could it be even that the US fascination with firearms in fact is good training for the job of fighting, you are breeding soldiers of the future, people au fait and ready to take up arms for whatever cause. The fostering of the gung-ho spirit has it's uses.

Sorry to differ about the comment about wounded carrying lead, for I realise not all guns are the same, guns are for killing, a wounding is a failure of aiming. My experience of guns, a wound is not possible, the exit wound alone is life threatening.

But the comment about masculinity a gun provides, take the weediest most oppressed member of society, give them a gun and watch them change.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 5:15:03 AM

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Most crimes are commited using cars. Let's ban them.

I have a suggestion, lets ban criminals!

I too have added to my firearms due to the election results and some other reasons. I am also stockpiling food. In the event that the economy continues to stumble, food is a priority, as is the ability to gather food and protect my family from those who did not plan ahead and wish to take my supplies from me.

I would guess that many of those who are opposed to stocking up on ammo and firearms, have never been through a significant natural disaster. Let them sit and wait for the government to come in and help. Im ready to take care of my family.

My firearms are not weapons. They are tools. Websters defines a weapon as:"A means used to defend against or defeat another:" But, if you try to infringe on my freedom or rights, they will become weapons.

< Message edited by twistedreality -- 11/14/2008 5:26:23 AM >

(in reply to Dnomyar)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 5:24:45 AM

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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CraZYWiLLiE

Thousands die in automobile crashes each year. Ban em..

2nd ammendment... Well regulate militia... free state..shall not be infringed...

Without the 2nd , there is no constitution, what you think holds it all together...words...NO guns, and those that have them.

Ask those who had their guns taken from them if they feel safe and secure.

An automobile as a weapon, it can be used as such, as automobiles are dangerous, or can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but automobiles have a good use, that of transportation, that is it's purpose. An automobile for killing, that is a misuse of purpose, not the reason for making them and using them, so banning automobiles because they can kill is much the same as banning anything pointy or sharp, because of the possibilities of misuse or accident. Given that level of paranoia, after the pointy, sharp things have been eradicated , the hitting things will be next and there follows every other tool we use until we are left with our own tooth and claw, until that is banned.

It is misguided to assume because an accident can kill as a by product of proper use , it should be taken away.

Guns on the other hand have but one use, killing. Hunting for game is fine if you need to hunt to live, but other than that, why have a gun and the problems they cause.

I think to realise that what I see as this philia that is gun love in the US is more disturbing because we in the UK cannot legally carry anything which can be deemed as offensive for the protection of ourselves. The law is, if we are attacked, we must call a policeman, something which is fine for olden times when we had bobbies and peelers, the hue and cry method then worked. So, we cannot carry in public what is deemed to be an offensive weapon, even for protection, if we use 'something' to defend ourselves, then it is highly possible we will be prosecuted for it, as everything that can be used in defence, can be used for attack and in the eyes of our controllers, we are all potential assailants.

It is no joke that much of our youth carry knives and knife crime is a problem, and I do understand those that say they carry for defence, as here, weapon owning is a respect thing with the young, a knife being a thing to respect in the hands of a known head case, defence against head cases I can understand, but there are better ways than knives, martial arts training is very effective.

The rest of us, well, most just keep clear of known trouble spots and use feeling as to ascertain whether a place we are going to is safe to go to, get the gut feeling and change the plan. Avoidance of difficulty by being aware.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/14/2008 5:45:33 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to CraZYWiLLiE)

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/14/2008 5:30:38 AM

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quote:

why have a gun and the problems they cause.

The problem with this question is it is not relevant in a free society. The 2nd Amendment means I do not have to justify myself, ever.

_____________________________

(in reply to Aneirin)

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