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RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 2:11:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

note in particular the lack of a capital D in the subject line.

Noted. Some feat, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

To expand a little, I do not consider myself to be superior to Jaz, she gets a capital letter.

Exceptional. A mere short step to proclaiming you the sole authority and enlightened mind on equality matters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

We are in no position to "tell" other dominants they are doing it wrong

There's no accounting for experience, and where those with plenty of experience are providing a spot of advice.........well, why not listen and take the good parts on board. I can only think of one thread I've read where an OP was told he was 'doing it wrong': hardly worthy of a call to arms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

These forums are for questions and discussions. If you or I have something constructive and pertinent to add to a thread then we should, otherwise don't be arrogant or superior.

I'd estimate a lot of wasted energy trying to work out who's arrogant and 'superior' and who's not. Why not simply concentrate on the content and take it or leave it?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to SteveAndJaz)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 2:13:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

There are people that are superior or weaker in a specific situation or area of knowledge.

And that is absolutely spot on.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some are built on better foundations than others.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 2:15:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

Reading some current threads I am driven to ask the question; Why is it some people have to be so bloody superior?

Because sometimes they are!!! That's the hard truth for some. There are people that are superior or weaker in a specific situation or area of knowledge. There are many that I would consider to be superior to me at Flogging or handling a Bullwhip. However, there superiority in that doesn't make me feel any less superior of a Top because someone might be more superior at flogging or whipping. Of course.... it is very possible that I can watch someone that just might be superior in doing certain scenes than me. It shouldn't surprize us that there are people that are superior to ourselves in a variety of ways and that we just might be superior to some people in a variety of ways.

Now this superiority is not really a bad thing except maybe for someone that is insecure with themselves and those that choose to rub their superiority into the noses of inferior people. If we didn't have superior people coming to these boards the learning value of this forum would be nil. It's superior people in a variety of areas that contribute to those that desire to learn and grow.

I believe that even though it is in bad forum to rub ones' superiority into the noses of those that are inferior it is equally bad forum for those that are inferior not to appreciate those individauls that are superior in a given area.

Accepting acknowledgements of ones abilities with grace is indeed a positive trait to have and so is expressing ones appreciation to those that help us in our learning.

OK, I agree with most of this. When someone posts a question here they are fishing for information or advice from those who are "superior". Positive responses are what motivates people to continue their journey in BDSM. Not all responses have to be "educated". Ever heard that saying "If you haven't got something nice to say then say nothing"?

Im not new to BDSM, something over 20 years (but then I am OLD) and in all my experience in real life at clubs, munches, workshops and anywhere else thats fet related I have not come across this level of aggression or arrogance that we see here online. We are members of a community that most newbies percieve as open and honest, we should be encoraging that and nurturing them, not beating them down.

Steve.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 2:24:39 AM

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I like Dominants that are a bit arrogant and superior ...it's hot but some do over do it a bit and come off as assholes

(in reply to SteveAndJaz)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 2:40:51 AM

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quote:

Because sometimes they are!!! That's the hard truth for some. There are people that are superior or weaker in a specific situation or area of knowledge.

Agree..some people are better then others in certain things they do. This works best without arrogance...so people actually want to see the superiority.
Superiority without people accepting it..has no vallue.

But beeing arrogant often (not always) means people act their superiority.

(in reply to BondageBarbieX)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 5:06:12 AM

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Hmmm the thing is sometimes the question isnt the root problem, sometimes the trhead deviates to talk about other issues. Is it arrogant to give advice or state an opinion? I dont think so. Also I was thinking the other day I was insulted with the phrase "you always think you are right" well fuck me of course I do, if i didnt think I was right I wouldnt bloody think it now would I.

Sometimes I see it like this

"Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth. " Baz Lurhman

_____________________________

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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(in reply to SteveAndJaz)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 5:28:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
Sorry for the hijack but I have a question about this and don't want to start a whole new thread but I've seen many people get on people for using the term (title) Master. Who gets to decide? My Master's screen name here is InkedMaster. He has never met any of you. I have not met any of you in person. We do not play in public, we are not active in "The Community". He chose the screen name because it said a bit about who He is and how He identifies in the style of play He prefers. By many popular posters here, He was wrong to call Himself "Master". What does the rulebook say?

He chooses to call himself Master, and to have you call him that. However, he would never come on the boards and ask things like "Now that I am a Master, what am I supposed to do with the girl I own." And I do not think he would have the arrogance to expect any of us to refer to him as Master aside from with his profile name. H would not bold the references to Master in his statements either. What one chooses to call themselves is entirely up to them. He could choose to call himself Lord for all any of us care. It is what he airs in public after that made is ask. There is a difference between calling yourself Master because it fits your dynamic and feels right and calling yourself that and then trying to learn the role you are putting yourself into by what others believe would fit it.

InkedMaster can call himself whatever he chooses but like any other Master here, *I* would not refer to him that way until I had proof he was in my eyes a Master of something other than his own relationship. Hopefully that has cleared up the question.

DV

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RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 6:33:28 AM

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If InkedMaster started signing his posts "Master Inked" (or "Master %#@ $*&@ Inked-up Sonofabitch" which seems more likely

) I really doubt anyone would blink an eye. Master Fire self-titled herself "Master." I have never seen anyone give her any grief about it. (There was a guy on another site who thought she was so awesome that he changed his login name to "MasterFireSir," proving that it's possible to be creepy when giving a compliment... but that's a different story.)

People can often tell if you deserve to feel confident in your abilities, or if you don't.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to VampiresLair)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 7:11:53 AM

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I don't think arrogance comes just from Dominants...I mean...there are lots of arrogant people not involved in the lifestyle. I understand your question though and since I am only a sub I will take the5th on that...

I think for you and yours everything seems to be working fine...so no worries. In this lifestyle we look for what we are compatible with, right?? In a nutshell...some are going to respond negatively and some positive--we are a diverse group which makes us more interesting. Best of luck to you...and remember...it is better to just roll with the flow in most cases...

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~To thine own self be true~~no compromise.~

(in reply to SteveAndJaz)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 7:45:03 AM

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eyesopened, I do not know InkedMaster. I have never read his posts here, and have not viewed his profile. All I know of him is that he's owned you for a year and a half, from a blog entry.

The Dom in question stated that he had had a lifelong dream to be a Master and suddenly became one two weeks ago.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:05:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

Im not new to BDSM, something over 20 years (but then I am OLD) and in all my experience in real life at clubs, munches, workshops and anywhere else thats fet related I have not come across this level of aggression or arrogance that we see here online. We are members of a community that most newbies percieve as open and honest, we should be encoraging that and nurturing them, not beating them down.

I remember when I was new to it all, I remember getting upset at the way certain people responded to me, then I realised that the reason they did this was not because they are horrible people or to simply be mean it was mostly because of the way I framed questions. I have since learned to be more open ended, when I get snotty undeserved responses now I just think oh well they are a bit of a pillock.

Online is differant from a club, if you decide to put yourself out there in words you will get a response. In a club you dont wander around asking people you dont know strange questions. If you do then you probably would get a snotty response. You see most of the posts that get snide comments are the posts that are judgemental and noramlly ignorant with it.

The thing is no one owes me anything. I answer questions in whatever way the question deserves sometimes that does involve something the poster doesnt want to hear, normally it gets ignored and they only listen to what they do want to hear. I am not mena for means sake and i dont think anyone should be. But if someone on here asks a question and need some grounding I have no problem giving it to them. Some of the most valuable lessons I have learnt have come from people with bitter experiance.

_____________________________

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There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to SteveAndJaz)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:10:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz
I'm amazed how sensitive some are to this thread subject....

Pot, meet kettle. The only one ranting about this subject is you. Ergo the only ones sensitive to this subject are you.

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RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:22:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightsofMists
Because sometimes they are!!! That's the hard truth for some. There are people that are superior or weaker in a specific situation or area of knowledge.

Thanks for that KoM!

Ahh, the reality of the non-politically correct fact. It seems to be a modern day pogrom to exterminate the very concept of the possibility that people are different by nature and the difference creates inequality. ALL men (must have been a typo on the US Constitution to have excluded woman) are created equal, but not ALL men want, or can, achieve equality. You can look at it from the strictly pragmatic side; all are not equal in their ability to lift weight, run, or even reach as high as then next person. Hell some can't even walk, talk, or move; because it seems their 'creator' is a bit of a sadist in that regard.

By that same token; is there any doubt that some are more intelligent? As much as the social engineers strive for a common mediocrity in educating the masses, some still manage to achieve, flourish, and learn better than others.

Those aspects of non-equality seem to be accepted as a given. Every for years the world holds Olympics to determine who is 'more equal' than all the rest. Yet ones superiority in relationship skills, and the methods they use for their success is a target of critique.

Based upon the multiple threads on the subject it seems to be an issue for many. The question is always raises with me is regarding the cause; is it jealousy or lack of confidence driven?

Is it a matter of citing arrogance, or a self-confidence issue? Perhaps a good indicator would be do you give a shit if your label, self assigned, relationship indicator, or honorarium, is capitalized by someone else. A better standard may be whether it bothers you enough to post a thread about it.

Besides being funny, is 'arrogance' responsible for Loretta's perceived repression or just a "struggle against reality"?

quote:

STAN: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.
REG: What?!
LORETTA: It's my right as a man.
JUDITH: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
LORETTA: I want to have babies.
REG: You want to have babies?!
LORETTA: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
REG: But... you can't have babies.
LORETTA: Don't you oppress me.
REG: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! Where's the fetus going to gestate?! You going to keep it in a box?!
LORETTA: crying
JUDITH: Here! I-- I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans', but that he can have the right to have babies.
FRANCIS: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.
REG: What's the point?
FRANCIS: What?
REG: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?!
FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality

Source: http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/8.htm

Although similar comic relief is achieved in these debates; who finds value in fighting a similar 'war' over similar personal struggles?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:27:55 AM

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Lol Ta Merc, i totally love that sketch.

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:33:01 AM

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FR

Just an observation... this threads seems to have been started over someone calling themself a master, someone disagreeing... someone else disagreeing with that and... well... here we are.

I have often see it debated as to what qualifies a person to call themselves a "Master" (though I've not seen the same debate about someone calling themself a "Mistress", curious). Usually in such debates the comparison to a master carpenter or electrician comes up. It seems clear that in the minds of some, being called a "Master" denotes some sort of rank, one above Dominant. That of course leaves one to wonder... who set up such a ranking system? What qualifications is one supposed to have to be a "Master" or "Mistress"? What skills? What abilities? Who gives the test? Who determined what is on the test? Do we get a certificate? And of course that's all a bit silly... there is no structure or test, no pre-determined qualifications. Yet the expectation, for some, remains.

The truth is there are NO qualifications to call yourself a "Master" or "Mistress". There is also no means to require anyone else to call you either a "Master" or "Mistress". Therein lies the rub. There is clearly a feeling with some there there should be a qualification, even though none exists and I have yet to see a reasonable means devised to create such. Within some private groups, they have created such a ranking structure, but that only applies within such groups, yet not among the general "community". Others have suggested that owning a "slave" is qualification enough, but again this isn't generally agreed upon. It also raises other questions, such as are you still a Master or Mistress if the slave leaves... or only if you dismiss them? What if they die? If being a "Master or Mistress" is determined by owning a slave... who determines whether the owned slave actually qualifies as a "slave" and "owned"?

But then it occurs to me that much of all this fuss revolves around not the question of qualification... but of quality. The question stems from the unspoken expectation of many (perhaps even most of us in truth) that a "Master" or "Mistress" should be a person of quality, that they should have a degree of experience, maturity, competence, etc. The problem is, there is no litmus test for these things, no checklist of expectations, no Board of Examination which decrees who is fit to carry the title and who is not. And that, in my not so humble opinion, is the very heart of the conflict... that we wish that title to be an easy reference of qualification... and it is not. Yet the expectation remains... and the inevitable disappointment that always comes with such unrealistic expectations.

So... as regards the individual, whoever he was... who proclaimed himself a newly minted master of his newly minted sub/slave/pet/whatever.... congrats, you're a master. What sort of master... that remains to be seen.

As for arrogance and superiority. Yes I am... deal with it.

< Message edited by Padriag -- 1/4/2009 8:41:05 AM >

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:36:31 AM

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The arrogance some of us display is not without reason. I haven't been doing this for 20 years but almost. I did this stuff in one of the centers of BDSM, San Francisco. Jay Wiseman recognizes me, I have met many of the author's of the BDSM cannon of literature, I have run groups, owned play spaces, etc.

None of that means shit to me but it does seem to impress certain people.

What I can tell you is that I have seen more wisdom on these boards than all my time in San Francisco. That wisdom is often seen as arrogance. People do NOT want their cherished illusions challenged but there are those here who see right through those very same illusions to the all too real reality. As RedMagic stated so succinctly, some of us can see the "future" not because we are psychic but because we have seen that particular drama unfold umpteen times in ours and other's lives and we already know the "ending".

That isn't arrogance, that is wisdom.

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:39:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

FR

Just an observation...

I have often see it debated as to what qualifies a person to call themselves a "Master" (though I've not seen the same debate about someone calling themself a "Mistress", curious). Usually in such debates the comparison to a master carpenter or electrician comes up. It seems clear that in the minds of some, being called a "Master" denotes some sort of rank, one above Dominant. That of course leaves one to wonder... who set up such a ranking system? What qualifications is one supposed to have to be a "Master" or "Mistress"? What skills? What abilities? Who gives the test? Who determined what is on the test? Do we get a certificate? And of course that's all a bit silly... there is no structure or test, no pre-determined qualifications. Yet the expectation, for some, remains.

The truth is there are NO qualifications to call yourself a "Master" or "Mistress". There is also no means to require anyone else to call you either a "Master" or "Mistress". Therein lies the rub. There is clearly a feeling with some there there should be a qualification, even though none exists and I have yet to see a reasonable means devised to create such. Within some private groups, they have created such a ranking structure, but that only applies within such groups, yet not among the general "community". Others have suggested that owning a "slave" is qualification enough, but again this isn't generally agreed upon. It also raises other questions, such as are you still a Master or Mistress if the slave leaves... or only if you dismiss them? What if they die? If being a "Master or Mistress" is determined by owning a slave... who determines whether the owned slave actually qualifies as a "slave" and "owned"?

But then it occurs to me that much of all this fuss revolves around not the question of qualification... but of quality. The question stems from the unspoken expectation of many (perhaps even most of us in truth) that a "Master" or "Mistress" should be a person of quality, that they should have a degree of experience, maturity, competence, etc. The problem is, there is no litmus test for these things, no checklist of expectations, no Board of Examination which decrees who is fit to carry the title and who is not. And that, in my not so humble opinion, is the very heart of the conflict... that we wish that title to be an easy reference of qualification... and it is not. Yet the expectation remains... and the inevitable disappointment that always comes with such unrealistic expectations.

Badda-bing

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RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 8:40:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveAndJaz

Ever heard that saying "If you haven't got something nice to say then say nothing"?

This is about as stupid of a phrase as "There are no stupid questions".

Fact is... for someone that doing something stupid or reckless and to be blunt a inferior person doing something inferior. It is not nice and often difficult for them to hear from someone that is indeed superior and more skilled that they are not very good at what they are doing! Sometimes Inferior people will never beable to listen and learn and will always see comments or help as being something that is not nice and therefore one should not saying anything to live up to the stupid phrase that you suggest. I am one that doesn't agree with the phrase at all. I speak my mind and I try to communicate in a manner that will be effective.... and sometimes might not be said so nicely! In fact... it wasn't too long ago that I did just that here on the boards. I first used alittle sugar and there person was so closed to there own opinion that they where not listening. OUT comes a hammer... and the mind opened!

nothing is more dangerous to growth and learning is the "Indifference" of those that have something to share and teach and the phrase that you bring to me is very much about "indifference"

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SteveAndJaz)

RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 9:03:24 AM

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quote:

Im not new to BDSM, something over 20 years (but then I am OLD) and in all my experience in real life at clubs, munches, workshops and anywhere else thats fet related I have not come across this level of aggression or arrogance that we see here online. We are members of a community that most newbies percieve as open and honest, we should be encoraging that and nurturing them, not beating them down.

How very Oprah of you.

The only person I should be encouraging and nurturing is my slave, and the only reason I should do so is because that is how I get a better slave. Everyone else can listen, take notes, nod their head wisely at my insightful comments, laugh hysterically at my incisive wit--or they can go to hell; I'm ok with either choice.

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RE: The Arrogance behind dominants - 1/4/2009 9:12:51 AM

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What is saying something nice mean exactly? If someone is about to cut their arm off with a chainsaw because they are dumb fucks, do you not say anything because all you can think of to say is "hey dumbfuck, set the chain saw down"?

If I see some asshole beating his wife, should I stay silent because the words or actions I would prefer to utilize are not nice?

The reason I don't always choose to be nice is when I no longer believe I can convince the OP of the error of their ways BUT want to make sure that some other reader who might be in a similar situation WILL see the problem. Sugar coating a response will ensure both come away with nothing, being rather blunt however, just might allow another reader to see themselves and grow.

Which points out the difference between real life and the internet. In real life, it would be me and some nimrod. In that case, I might just smile and say something nice and then slowly back away and never interact with that person again. Here, my "conversation" is going to be shared with people for years, viewed by god knows how many people. Saying something nice denies all those people my infinite wisdom and what could be more cruel than that?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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