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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 9:54:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: It is just a clever Woman getting her way through other means.

I should damn well hope it's a woman getting what she wants: we call it `abuse', otherwise. But by slotting `clever' in there, you imply a scheming manipulation that I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive.

beeble

I wondered about that also. So she's not really submissive, she's just acting like that to get what she wants?

But the example given in the OP wasn't about BDSM it was about everyday interactions that may seem like domination or submissive. I think we're losing sight of that in this thread and MistresssKuma returned to it.

That's part of why my response was tiered -- everyday life then BDSM choices. They are not the same.

So to make it more clear, thishereboi, yes, in everyday life lots of folks follow social dictates either because they think they must or they believe they can manipulate these to get what they want.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 1/4/2009 9:56:08 AM >

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 9:57:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: It is just a clever Woman getting her way through other means.

I should damn well hope it's a woman getting what she wants: we call it `abuse', otherwise. But by slotting `clever' in there, you imply a scheming manipulation that I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive.

beeble

I wondered about that also. So she's not really submissive, she's just acting like that to get what she wants?

Umm, yes.

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 9:57:53 AM

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Clever is a bad thing??

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That was then, this is now.

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 9:58:41 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

Maybe your mom stayed in the kitchen and always did what your dad wanted

completely the direct opposite - both of my parents worked however it was my dad who did the cooking and cleaning when i was young until mom decided to quit her executive job to be a stay-at-home mom. also contrary to your assumption, she never did what my dad wanted - it was mutually agreed upon who would do what.

< Message edited by sambamanslilgirl -- 1/4/2009 10:00:54 AM >

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 9:58:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celene

Clever is a bad thing??

(in reply to Celene)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:00:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: It is just a clever Woman getting her way through other means.

I should damn well hope it's a woman getting what she wants: we call it `abuse', otherwise. But by slotting `clever' in there, you imply a scheming manipulation that I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive.

beeble

Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.
______________________________________________________

"I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive."

Why, is that hitting too close to home?

(in reply to beeble)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:05:23 AM

T1981

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This is going to be rambly and probably a little (or alot!) incoherent, so please skip if it wanders too far off track.....

I have been one of those women who have been legitimately abused and I truly believe that those experiences help keep me aware, safe, and continually evaluating my BDSM experiences. I know what unhealthy power exchanges look like - so it keeps me honest and communicative about what I am doing today in my life. Intent is important, as is motivation, and while I know it's heartbreaking to know that so many women out there are being abused, the intent and motivation in MY relationship has nothing to do with abuse.

I make the choice to submit to my husband's hand, or to a playmate's directive. I make the choice to direct my energies into a scene and I make the choice of how to handle those energies afterwards. These are all good things, and at the heart of BDSM - male, female, submissive, dominant. Even those in a 24/7 make the choice to stay, and so it's a little confusing, and honestly, saddening, to hear that others out there don't always see or believe that we are making the choice in how to express our submissiveness.

I am a strong person, and I am a strong submissive. Just as I would not automatically label someone who identified as a Domme as someone who is nothing but a sheer ball-breaking bitch (at least in seriousness), I would not assume that someone who identifies as a submissive feels weak, lost, or is somehow not marshalling the strength and power that she inherently has in her. It takes ALOT of energy to be dominanted, and it takes alot of energy to absorb the things that go on during a session. Just because we are on the recieving end does not mean that we are not strong.

It was actually the BDSM scene that provided me with one of the biggest breakthroughs concerning my feminist development I'd ever had. There is a site called Ladies Against Feminism, and it is exactly as it says, suggesting that women go softly and quietly, hands folded in their laps, and submit ever so humbley to God and their husbands. It enraged me.

And then it occured to me that if I do not feel any contempt towards a female sub in a BDSM relationship, then I'd damn sure better respect the wishes of those women who choose to submit to their husbands. Be it for God, simplicities sake, or just because it's fucking fun kink, it is the same result and I must respect that.

And in the BDSM scene, we are lucky. One of the biggest things you will hear as a newbie is "educate yourself, learn, research, experiment and explore." While many of those truly abused women never get the chance to truly learn about who they are - we, on the other hand, are encouraged to and often freely given the information we need to make those informed choices.

If anything makes the difference between healthy and unhealthy submission, male or female, to anyone, that is it.

_____________________________

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:08:49 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: It is just a clever Woman getting her way through other means.

I should damn well hope it's a woman getting what she wants: we call it `abuse', otherwise. But by slotting `clever' in there, you imply a scheming manipulation that I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive.

beeble

Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.
______________________________________________________

"I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive."

Why, is that hitting too close to home?

i take offense to that statement.

i don't need to resort to manipulation, scheming, and/or topping from the bottom to get what i need from Daddy. i don't have to be clever either - that would never work with Him.

He knows what i need and when i need it ...and no i'm not lying either.

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:09:56 AM

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From: UK
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quote:

Celene wrote: Clever is a bad thing??

The word `clever' has shades of meaning. In some circumstances, it's just a synonym for `intelligent'; in others, it carries connotations of scheming, manipulation and duplicitousness. In a sentence such as `She was very clever: she always got high marks at school', `clever' most likely means nothing more than `intelligent'; however, Mistress Kuma has clarified that by talking about `clever women getting their own way', she did, indeed, mean scheming and manipulative.

beeble.

(in reply to Celene)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:11:03 AM

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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA
Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.
______________________________________________________
[/unquote]

I find this offensive as well. Not because it is 'hitting too close to home' but because it states that I am a deceitful, lying bitch. Since I pride myself on my values and ethical system, I try very hard not to act in the way you arrogantly and incorrectly decided all female subs act.

More importantly you are denigrating tens of thousands of people you have never met, rather a bigoted thing to do, claiming that anyone of a specific orientation is dishonest. Do you also state these kinds of things about people with different racial or religious or ethnic backgrounds than yourself? Or are you just prejudiced against female submissives?

Do I get my needs met? Certainly. Because I took the time to find a man with the same high moral values as myself who is dominant and who enjoys a preponderance of activities that I also enjoy. In other words I found someone complementary and compatible to be with. And included in getting my needs met is getting my submissive needs met. I submit to a worthy man who I trust and respect, and who is not the stupid person you assume he is when you claim that all fem subs are deceitful, you also assume all male doms are stupid enough to fall for deceit from any fem sub.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:14:40 AM

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wow... sad to say, an eye-opening thread. So if I were to say I can't possibly understand why a male would submit to a female because males are inherently the dominant sex and that a male sub must (a) be getting what he wants in a subversive way; (b) confused; (c) distasteful ... would that be a welcomed opinion?

Submission, from either gender, does not equal abuse. If you have abuse in your background (which I do not), do not let it color your view of female submission. My submission is consentual, although I am certain there are instances which are not, as there are exceptions everywhere.

The next time a male submissive licks your boots or drinks your piss or takes your beating, physical or verbal, and yet you somehow feel female submissives are letting the gender down ... remember it's the same thing a female submissive is doing with her male dominant.

Sheesh.

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(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:17:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.

Uh-huh. Is there a lot of manipulation in male submission?

Edited to add: Forget it - your profile says it all. No sense getting into it here.

< Message edited by mc1234 -- 1/4/2009 10:19:02 AM >

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:21:37 AM

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From: UK
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quote:

thetammyjo wrote:
But the example given in the OP wasn't about BDSM it was about everyday interactions that may seem like domination or submissive. I think we're losing sight of that in this thread and MistresssKuma returned to it.

Actually, the OP referred both to `mom staying in the kitchen and doing what dad wanted' and to `female slaves being tied up and led around by men' at BDSM parties. Mistress Kuma appears to believe that all female submission is manipulative. It's not clear whether she means submission in the BDSM sense or women being subjugated by the men in their lives but, frankly, I find both suggestions offensive. On the one hand, she is absolutely denying the possibility of genuine D/s-submission from a woman; on the other hand, if she is including subjugation, then she is labelling abused women as manipulative.

quote:

That's part of why my response was tiered -- everyday life then BDSM choices. They are not the same.

Indeed. As always, your thoughful responses are appreciated.

beeble

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:23:33 AM

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From: Duluth, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.
______________________________________________________

You believe in female supremacy while I do not. Since you have no concept of female submission there is no sense in even trying to explain it to you. It will (and is) falling on closed ears. (and yes, I read her profile before I wrote this statement)

< Message edited by laura2161 -- 1/4/2009 10:24:32 AM >

_____________________________

'I am not infantile, You StinkyButt Poophead!'

(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:24:33 AM

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Counting to ten......
Okay, I am going to try and tackle this nicely, since I am not in my playground here, so thank you ladies for allowing the transgression.

Tantriqu, I have no daughters to teach, as a lifelong feminist I chose to not procreate, and when I did marry, I retained my matriachal name. I do hate the term maiden. I am divorced. I would in all honesty be willing to wager that you have not met many women that have invested as much blood sweat tears and volunteer hours in the cause for equal rights as I have. When my friends were attending cheer camp, I was marching in pro-choice rallies and reading feminist literature, and I don't mean Naomi Wolf, I am talking Andrea Dworkin's "Woman Hating" and "Women against Pornography." My first real job was selling automobiles with a bunch of chauvanist pigs. I made it a point to top them every month just to prove a point. I will confront sexism and woman abuse in the face, and the same goes for the good old white male network. They can kiss my ass.I now as an adult am the VP of a construction company and I tell hard bodied men what to do, and when to do it. I don't spend my days lamenting the arrival of my Master, getting flogged, and blowing him. Somedays sure.....but I love that too.

Yes, I have a man I call Master that I submit to eagerly, willingly, and with love and devotion. He is amazing, and yes it is definitely a power exchange relationship and I crave it, after years of struggling internally in an unhappy marriage. So? The rest of the male species are my peers, to be dealt with on an individual basis. Most men I don't have a huge regard for, years of being in a male dominated business maybe, I don't know. I do know that not one men that I have done business with has the tiniest inkling of my true nature, I am sure of that. Your comment on feeling sorry for us? Sorry for me? Not by a long shot. I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but I have one Master, not the entire male species and many many many female friends of mine that claim the title slave or submissive are feminists as well. Maybe not as vigilant as I can be, but to each their own.

Thank you for letting me vent, I really don't mean any disrespect, it just irked me and I wanted to clarify what my little piece of this whole thing is about. Oh, and don't assume we slaves and subs haven't tried domination either, I like to taste all the menu items before I choose dinner.I am content now in knowing what fulfills me. Simple.

edited to add in case of curious georges...my parents are both college educated, happily married for 44 years and fairly traditional, both work and contribute, and I never saw my father even raise his voice to my mother, nor was she very submissive to him, it was and is a partnership.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Saddened, with a hope that they've at least had a chance to try Domination, and a wish they teach their daughters they always have a choice. Sadists posing as doms who are threatened by Dommes, and passive-aggressive masochists with zilch self-esteem are big reasons I eschew most meetings.
And I'm repulsed by the sadistic banner ads in CM; I have to alter my browser to keep 'em out.

< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 1/4/2009 10:28:06 AM >

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to Tantriqu)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:34:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celene

Clever is a bad thing??

I don't think being clever is a bad thing. Pretending to be something you are not to get what you want is. Now maybe to some, this is a game or a part we play to in order to get more stuff, but to most of the people I know, it goes a lot deeper than that. If Kuma wants to assume that submissive women are just playing "submissive" in order to get something, then that is her business. It just tells me she hasn't gotten close to many female submissives.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to Celene)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:39:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc1234

quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.

Uh-huh. Is there a lot of manipulation in male submission?

Edited to add: Forget it - your profile says it all. No sense getting into it here.

I hadn't looked, but yes it is very enlightening. I thought it was odd that she identifies as a switch? I guess that means when she is in bottom mode she is lying or trying to sell something.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to mc1234)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 10:58:25 AM

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
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quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: [blah]
mc1234 wrote: Edited to add: Forget it - your profile says it all. No sense getting into it here.

Ah, thanks for the heads-up. My inferior genetic make-up and my feeble brain overheating between my legs conspired to prevent me from finding that out myself.

beeble

(And then my feeble laptop tried to stop me posting this.)

(in reply to mc1234)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:02:03 AM

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Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

How do you feel about lesbian couples? Is one of them on the wrong side of the kneel? Should they both be dommes?

How do I feel about lesbian couples? Happy for them. My point is that I can't understand why anyone would submit, although it's lovely for me that they do.

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:04:01 AM

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Joined: 1/3/2009
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I value genuine female submission as highly as I do male submission.

I have always admired women who are subservient or submissive by nature to men. I have always had a sort of ongoing paradoxical view of them, until a very submissive and gracious co-worker once gave me an education regarding her true nature.

You see, on the one hand always I wondered why I can't possibly behave the way they do, then on the other hand I wondered how on earth they can always seem to smile and say 'yes, Sir, thank you for pointing that out to me.' Arrrrgh!

One day at the office, I took some paperwork to a female coworker who, because of her gracious submission to every man in the company was and still is the most popular person in the company. She patiently listened to my directive on how the paperwork should have been completed.

She smiled ever so sweetly, and said, in a soft, feminine and gracious voice: "Thank you for pointing that out to me, I'll try to do better."

I stood there as if an iron frying pan had slammed into the back of my head: CLANG!!!

I had often heard her say those same exact words to Male Managers in the company who irritated her beyond words.

It was her catch phrase, a euphamism for what she would have liked to have said, instead: "Listen, buddy, I'm so damned busy I don't give a ratz ass about your petty complaint but because I need my job I'm going to listen to you at this moment, and believe me as soon as you're gone from my desk your petty little complaint will be the LAST priority on my mind!"

The day she oh so sweetly and submissively threw that line at me, with her warm and genuine smile, I learned a little something about women I perceived to be submissive, in the workplace or anywhere else.

Namely:

"Things are not always as they seem."

I am She

< Message edited by IamShe -- 1/4/2009 11:18:02 AM >

(in reply to AcademyForSlaves)

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