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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:06:38 AM

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Clever and submission never meant manipulative to me. Clever is not having to use manipulation. Submission doesn't have to mean what some people make it. Submission if manipulative is not beautiful to me and I find submission from one not abusing clever and submissive beautiful.

To insult a whole, with a part, is not clever.

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:07:46 AM

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IS going after what you want manipulative? because I thought that was just going after what you want. Submissive females want to be submissive females to by being in the relationship they are getting what they want, if that makes me manipulative then ill wear the badge wtih pride.

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:14:43 AM

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: It is just a clever Woman getting her way through other means.

I should damn well hope it's a woman getting what she wants: we call it `abuse', otherwise. But by slotting `clever' in there, you imply a scheming manipulation that I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive.

beeble

Yes, there is a lot of manipulation in female submission and anyone who tries you tell you different is lying or trying to sell you something.
______________________________________________________

"I, as a submissive, actually find rather offensive."

Why, is that hitting too close to home?

I should have just replied to the OP and then read the rest. I had a great response, until I got to this crap. Now I'm just sad. I know that this particular poster is generally spouting a reflection of her own insecurities, but I don't think she's alone in this belief, and for the others who believe as such, it is again, a reflection of themselves and their own insecurities. You know what they say about horse theives.

Now, on to the OP...as best I can remember what I wanted to say.

I have girlfriends who are submissive, I have had female submissives as playmates and partners. I have a lot of respect for them as people. I respect them for all of who they are, the decisions that they make in their lives, and how they express themselves. I see them as strong, independent, and capable women. I admire their ability to follow the path that is best for them, and I support them in their choices.

I have a few that I am more protective of than others, mainly because they are more fragile or vulnerable. But that doesn't mean that they don't make their own decisions, with my full support, whatever they may be. It just means that I watch their interactions with potential partners a little more closely and offer my thoughts when asked. That's just me and my possessive/protective nature.

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Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:15:04 AM

T1981

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Beeble, my laptop is feeble, too. Maybe they can be feeble together?

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:16:58 AM

SylvereApLeanan

Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I am not submissive, so the idea that *anyone* would be baffles me---though of course I am grateful to those that are!

Seconded. I don't have any issue with women who want to submit to a man (though I like it better when they submit to me). As long as they don't think *I* should submit to anyone. So. Not. Gonna. Happen. The key word there is "want" -- if she thinks she must submit, whether it's a cultural bias or because she's been mistreated, that's not okay with me. As long as the woman has chosen the role she finds most fulfilling, it's Good. I start losing respect when the woman acts spineless, powerless, or like she's got VICTIM tattooed on her forehead.

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(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:19:51 AM

MysticFireTopaz

Posts: 50939
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves
As a dominant mistress what do you think about women that submit to men?

Definitely not my cup of tea and I totally don't understand it, but to each her own. If it brings a woman happiness and fulfillment to submit to a man, that's her choice and I respect it.

Lady Topaz

(in reply to AcademyForSlaves)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:22:15 AM

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Joined: 10/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

MISTRESSKUMA wrote: [blah]
mc1234 wrote: Edited to add: Forget it - your profile says it all. No sense getting into it here.

Ah, thanks for the heads-up. My inferior genetic make-up and my feeble brain overheating between my legs conspired to prevent me from finding that out myself.

beeble

(And then my feeble laptop tried to stop me posting this.)

Hah! Thanks for the grin... anytime!

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:45:27 AM

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Thank you for letting me vent, I really don't mean any disrespect, it just irked me and I wanted to clarify what my little piece of this whole thing is about. Oh, and don't assume we slaves and subs haven't tried domination either, I like to taste all the menu items before I choose dinner.I am content now in knowing what fulfills me. Simple.

Many thanks for posting. I think your experiences pretty much encapsulate the truth about the relationship between feminism and personal sexuality. The two things are completely unrelated except in the sense that women need the right and the freedom to seek fulfillment in their relationships. The fact that someone submits in her bedroom to a lover of her choice does not mean that she wants to be treated as an inferior at work, in politics, etc. Or that she wants to be sexually harassed or attacked by strangers, for that matter.

Far too many people think that their own sexuality is "correct" or necessarily the only answer for people of their sex/gender. I am not angered or repulsed by female submissives in general, having spent many happy hours dominating women in the past. The fact that a woman submits to a man is by extension not a problem. My violent reactions tend to come from the occasions when male dominants approach ME with an automatic assumption that I am submissive, or when male dominance and female submission is assumed to be automatically correct in the workplace, in social situations and politics, etc.--that's BS.

I'm equally irritated when female submissives cannot accept my authority in the field or at the podium because I'm not male, or when female submissives within this community try to tell me that submission is the "natural" relationship of women to men, and that as a female dominant I am somehow "unnatural" or "don't know my place" (yes, these people do exist).

Overall, however, these things are pretty minor annoyances. I hadn't realized that this thread was intended to be about women who submit in public life rather than private life, or I wouldn't have made such a limited response. I would agree with the posters who say that women who undermine or attack equality of the sexes in the workplace, in politics, and in society are really annoying and destructive--thank you for demonstrating that being submissive in one's personal life and anti-feminist in public life are NOT necessarily related.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to Aynne88)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 11:48:16 AM

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

How do you feel about lesbian couples? Is one of them on the wrong side of the kneel? Should they both be dommes?

How do I feel about lesbian couples? Happy for them. My point is that I can't understand why anyone would submit, although it's lovely for me that they do.

I feel the same way, Reigna, and I have worked hard--and still do--to try and understand the submissive mindset, because submissiveness---as opposed to bottoming---is really a whole other way of looking at the world. Luckily I am surrounded by wonderful examples! CalifChick especially has opened my eyes to a lot, as have my fellow Pimpettes. I have tried hard to dredge up any kind of submission tendency (for a special friend...) and there's just no way. All I have is admiration and respect for those women and men who are capable of something that I can't do.

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[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Reigna)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:05:44 PM

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Joined: 2/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

Maybe your mom stayed in the kitchen and always did what your dad wanted

I suppose, it was the fifties and Donna Reed and Loretta Young were role models.

However, it was in the kitchen where she learned to frisbee a Royal Copenhagen
Floral Danica fine china plate into the family room square against his occipital bone
with an unbelievable and impressive accuracy when he pissed her off.

She still spent many moments adorned in lace aprons with floured hands in the
kitchen aiming to please him.

He simply learned to appreciate that aim..........with quite a bit more adoration.

Clever woman.

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

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You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:11:17 PM

T1981

Posts: 557
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

I suppose, it was the fifties and Donna Reed and Loretta Young were role models.

However, it was in the kitchen where she learned to frisbee a Royal Copenhagen
Floral Danica fine china plate into the family room square against his occipital bone
with an unbelievable and impressive accuracy when he pissed her off.

She still spent many moments adorned in lace aprons with floured hands in the
kitchen aiming to please him.

He simply learned to appreciate that aim..........with quite a bit more adoration.

Clever woman.

chia* (the pet)

*dies laughing*

_____________________________

"Nothing is pointless, every single thing you do resonates." -Pintsize

(in reply to chiaThePet)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:12:24 PM

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Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

I love sexy Shakti Santa.

Seriously, thank you so much for getting what I was saying. I don't hear that from female submissives so much as I do from Dominant males, the whole female dommes are unnatural bullshit. I am sure some female submissives hold that view too, how petty and unfortunate. I do agree with you as well, it is infuriating when it is harder to gain respect from other women in the work force than from men, I personally love seeing competent hard working women achieving stature and rank in all fields, but especially male dominated ones.

I have no trouble at all deferring to a woman in a professional level, I actually have found that women make better bosses in general due for one to a better capacity at multitasking as well as for me anyway an attitude of having to prove a point.

As far as some Dominant men assuming all women can be or should be made to submit, well, I had an interesting experience debating that nugget of misinformation on the Gorean board one rainy day, I won't be repeating that mistake. Not the place to espouse a feminist view!

I think I will stay on home turf from now on Shakti!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Thank you for letting me vent, I really don't mean any disrespect, it just irked me and I wanted to clarify what my little piece of this whole thing is about. Oh, and don't assume we slaves and subs haven't tried domination either, I like to taste all the menu items before I choose dinner.I am content now in knowing what fulfills me. Simple.

Many thanks for posting. I think your experiences pretty much encapsulate the truth about the relationship between feminism and personal sexuality. The two things are completely unrelated except in the sense that women need the right and the freedom to seek fulfillment in their relationships. The fact that someone submits in her bedroom to a lover of her choice does not mean that she wants to be treated as an inferior at work, in politics, etc. Or that she wants to be sexually harassed or attacked by strangers, for that matter.

Far too many people think that their own sexuality is "correct" or necessarily the only answer for people of their sex/gender. I am not angered or repulsed by female submissives in general, having spent many happy hours dominating women in the past. The fact that a woman submits to a man is by extension not a problem. My violent reactions tend to come from the occasions when male dominants approach ME with an automatic assumption that I am submissive, or when male dominance and female submission is assumed to be automatically correct in the workplace, in social situations and politics, etc.--that's BS.

I'm equally irritated when female submissives cannot accept my authority in the field or at the podium because I'm not male, or when female submissives within this community try to tell me that submission is the "natural" relationship of women to men, and that as a female dominant I am somehow "unnatural" or "don't know my place" (yes, these people do exist).

Overall, however, these things are pretty minor annoyances. I hadn't realized that this thread was intended to be about women who submit in public life rather than private life, or I wouldn't have made such a limited response. I would agree with the posters who say that women who undermine or attack equality of the sexes in the workplace, in politics, and in society are really annoying and destructive--thank you for demonstrating that being submissive in one's personal life and anti-feminist in public life are NOT necessarily related.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:26:25 PM

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Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

... I have worked hard--and still do--to try and understand the submissive mindset, because submissiveness---as opposed to bottoming---is really a whole other way of looking at the world.

It must be! I tried submitting and bottoming early in my career as a kinkster, mostly because I thought that was the way it's'posed to be. It did nothing but make me unhappy; my relationships were a misery. I am left with an intellectual understanding of submission and bottoming, but I simply do not grok them.

I have tried hard to dredge up any kind of submission tendency (for a special friend...) and there's just no way.

Have you ever had a discussion of CBT with a male Dom? So unlike the way male subs respond to such discussion! There's something really special about the way they go sort of green around the gills, and squirm around until their legs are crossed. That's pretty much what I do during a discussion of female submission.

All I have is admiration and respect for those women and men who are capable of something that I can't do.

Here we differ. I consider topping/bottoming/domination/submission, to be more or less value-free characteristics, like the color of a person's eyes. It is the individual's overall behavior that I admire and respect ... or not. I know this is what you meant, but I'm in the mood for splitting hairs.

< Message edited by Reigna -- 1/4/2009 12:30:17 PM >

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:37:27 PM

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Talking once again entirely in the BDSM sense and being selfish, mostly what I think about submissive women is that it's a pity that they're not dominant instead (natch).

I've had a few ex GFs who've been nominally vanilla but who've shown various degrees of submissiveness - and they've been quite artful at getting me to 'play the role' of dominant against my true grain. I recall getting a little tetchy at the suspicion, on many an occasion, that they've seen being submissive with me as somehow their 'natural right' while my 'natural duty' was to dominate them.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/4/2009 12:45:04 PM >

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RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:40:55 PM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeferentialBaby2

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett
I just do not have any female sub friends who can honestly explain why they do what they do to me on a personal level.

I am not surprised. The ability to explain a sexual orientation to someone who does not share that orientation in a way that insures the other "gets" it requires levels of introspection, analysis, and communication that most people do not have. In my experience, however, it can be done, and done quite sucessfully.

I wrote a bit about why I do, and posted some of it on my journal. I just wrote it yesterday, and I believe it might help explain at least what *I* get out of it.
I also think a lot of subs (both m and f) would understand it.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to DeferentialBaby2)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 12:46:08 PM

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Joined: 8/29/2008
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Christina, I just read your journal entry, that was beautiful and very open and pure.Thanks for sharing that, our reasons are similar in some ways and not in others, but it spoke to me nonetheless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeferentialBaby2

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett
I just do not have any female sub friends who can honestly explain why they do what they do to me on a personal level.

I am not surprised. The ability to explain a sexual orientation to someone who does not share that orientation in a way that insures the other "gets" it requires levels of introspection, analysis, and communication that most people do not have. In my experience, however, it can be done, and done quite sucessfully.

I wrote a bit about why I do, and posted some of it on my journal. I just wrote it yesterday, and I believe it might help explain at least what *I* get out of it.
I also think a lot of subs (both m and f) would understand it.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 1:05:04 PM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Christina, I just read your journal entry, that was beautiful and very open and pure.Thanks for sharing that, our reasons are similar in some ways and not in others, but it spoke to me nonetheless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeferentialBaby2

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett
I just do not have any female sub friends who can honestly explain why they do what they do to me on a personal level.

I am not surprised. The ability to explain a sexual orientation to someone who does not share that orientation in a way that insures the other "gets" it requires levels of introspection, analysis, and communication that most people do not have. In my experience, however, it can be done, and done quite sucessfully.

I wrote a bit about why I do, and posted some of it on my journal. I just wrote it yesterday, and I believe it might help explain at least what *I* get out of it.
I also think a lot of subs (both m and f) would understand it.

Thank you hun,

I wasn't going to post it, but after seeing this discussion, I felt drawn to.

Thanks again,

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to Aynne88)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 1:05:16 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

Being manipulative, has nothing do do with gender.
IMHO

Women AND Men can both be manipulative.

Dominant men and women can be manipulative.
Submissive men and women can be manipulative.

You can argue, discuss, and debate this until the end of time.
All people are different, and each person should be judged on an individual basis!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Aynne88)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 1:06:06 PM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

I am fortunate to have met people of all orientations and genders who have allowed to hold a positive outlook towards people of all orientations and genders.

I think it's perfectly fine for a female to seek submission the way and for reasons that I do.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Aynne88)

RE: How do you view female submission? - 1/4/2009 1:21:49 PM

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveBlutarsky

It makes me sick to be completely honest with you. That's just one less possible FemDom in the world with far too few as it is. Will someone PLEASE think of the FemDoms!

down with tolerance, more female dominants for you!

(in reply to SlaveBlutarsky)

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