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RE: service - 1/13/2009 6:23:31 PM

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Sea... I think that you may assume that the dominant... and in this case... me... doesn't do anything but expect service or chores done... with no respect for needs, desires, time, respect or kink that both enjoy. You have been misinformed or are misreading me. I make it very clear what types of relationships I want and if I am not into the man who needs to get his kink on to wash the dishes... then that is as valid as the one who does. I do not think everyone should do things my way nor do I feel I should cater to something I am not into.

I am fair and I am thinking of all things... I did say... get'er done so that there is more time for the lil domme to play! That wouldn't suggest play time is just for the submissive. Nor does it suggest that I am doing nothing while he is slaving away for me!

Edited to add... In the two times you have quoted me and responded on two different threads... you have used only part of my post. The part that highlights what you are trying to project and I find that it is not a clear picture of my statements... good or bad... approved of or not. I am who I am and that is just the way it is. Thank you.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 1/13/2009 6:26:31 PM >

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RE: service - 1/13/2009 6:41:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I have heard this point mentioned multiple times over the course of time but do not grasp it. This point suggests as if the submissive does not have demands on time. When the two play, is the submissive also not committing an equal amount of time to play? If the play is only for the sake of the submissive, fair enough that the submissive should reciprocate the gesture in one way or another. However, if the play is for sake of both then why does this point apply?

It all comes back to the Negative Value Theory Of Male Submission

And why am I the only person on the whole board who can't afford maid service? Geez.

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RE: service - 1/13/2009 6:46:23 PM

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I could not love or play with a submissive who I looked at as having negative value. I value him and he values me... it's a two way street there!

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RE: service - 1/13/2009 7:16:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
In the two times you have quoted me and responded on two different threads... you have used only part of my post. The part that highlights what you are trying to project and I find that it is not a clear picture of my statements... good or bad... approved of or not. I am who I am and that is just the way it is. Thank you.

I assume this thread is the other one you reference.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2376934/mpage_3/tm.htm

In general, I quote portions of a post for sake of brevity, and for sake of providing a context for my statement so as to clarify exactly what is it to which I am responding. It is not my intent to misrepresent or quote out of context. If someone uses a portion of my post in a way that makes it seem out of context, I clarify how it is taken out of context. If I inadvertently present what you say out of context, I invite you to clarify how I have taken it out of context so that I may apologize and continue the discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
I want to spend lot's of time with my submissive! That is why he needs to take part... Get'er done so lil domme can play. Don't like to do it... pay to have it done and then there's lots of time to play... Either way... get'er done! You are still going to serve, one way or another... mulitple choice... pay for it or do it... but you are still brushing my hair out. hehe

The above is the entire post in this thread to which I responded and the text in bold is what I quoted as context of my statement. I did not intend and do not think I took your words out of context.

quote:

I think that you may assume that the dominant... and in this case... me... doesn't do anything but expect service or chores done... with no respect for needs, desires, time, respect or kink that both enjoy.

The message I took from your post is that in order to have play time, a submissive must free a domme's time by either doing things or paying to have done things that otherwise she would do--I did not assume a situation where a dominant does not do anything except receive service (I did speak to this situation in the other thread but not here) and instead assumed a context where a dominant requires service in order to give play. If this interpretation is incorrect, please clarify.

If you mean that in a companionship, your companion must take a share of household duties as do everyday couples so that not everything is left on you, fair enough. I think such an expectation is so reasonable that I see this scenario to be a given. So when I read that a submissive should get chores done to free the domme's time, I take it to mean that he should create more free time for her by taking on some of her responsibilities so that she can play with him. It is this point at which I directed my statement. The idea I speak against--different as it may be from what you had in mind when you said your words--suggests that a submissive brings less to the play or relationship, or that his time is worth less, to which I object. I identify as a service submissive and may do things that are otherwise the responsibility of the domme on my own accord as an expression of submission or regard. However, if it is suggested to me that my contribution does not matter as much, or that my time matters less, it turns me off.

As a fair-minded person who seeks a companionship, I hope you can appreciate why I spoke against this point.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 1/13/2009 7:19:44 PM >

(in reply to Lockit)

RE: service - 1/13/2009 7:42:16 PM

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Sea,

Not to put words in Lockit's mouth, but there's a crucial line she uses that might be read in two entirely different ways.

Lockit says: I think that you may assume that the dominant... and in this case... me... doesn't do anything but expect service or chores done... with no respect for needs, desires, time, respect or kink that both enjoy.

To me that could be read as

I think that you may be assuming, correctly, that my opinion is that the dominant... and in this case... me... doesn't do anything but expect service or chores done... with no respect for needs, desires, time, respect or kink that both enjoy.

Or it could be read as:

I think that you may be assuming, wrongly, that my opinion is that the dominant... and in this case... me... doesn't do anything but expect service or chores done... with no respect for needs, desires, time, respect or kink that both enjoy.

I don't know if this helps a certain communication problem that I think I'm seeing here between you two . . . .

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RE: service - 1/13/2009 7:49:22 PM

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Sea, I do not wish to go point by point here or debate. Very simply I am going for a relationship and not with a service oriented submissive. We work together and I have said this so many times on the boards, I didn't make that clear to you I guess. We both have things we do for the other and we both spend time in sharing whatever needs to be done so that we both can have a good time with another. And for that matter, one could have a valid point in saying we do serve one another in ways. He free's my time and I free his.

Service can mean a lot of different things. I tend to think of service being more of the nature of him bringing me a cup of coffee and kneeling with me while we talk or in giving a massage... but he gets them too.. we just go about presenting things differently.

My post started out with I wanted to spend lots of time with my submissive and that is why he needed to take part. Part of my reasons for saying this was simply that a number of threads have been discussing this topic in one way or another. We all have our own way of doing things and each in it's own right has a right to be exactly what it is. Some feel that it is humilating or someone using them or thinking less of them as a human being... some go the other direction. Some want service in household chores, some do not.. some say pay for it.. or do it in a way similar to my own words, just maybe not the same way I said it.

I do not go for a service oriented submissive and am not looking for an unequal relationship in work or deed or play. If you view things I say as a service submissive... consider that I might not wish to write a book in explaining my relationships in each post and in most of my post, you will see someone determined to live the dynamic's of a female led relationship with one who wishes to live it with her and that our views (Your's and mine) are simply coming from different places.

My post here was meant to be light hearted, yet serious too. Yes I do expect someone to take part in doing things so that I have more time to play with them and spend lots of time with them. Whatever time is left from life, work and all that. That is not selfish.. that is an 'us' thing and both benefit. Where I feel you are taking me wrongly is that you are acting as if I have no understanding of things and that I am not thinking of my submissive in ways you have mentioned. To know a lot about my relationships you would have to know my relationships if I haven't said things on the boards. I tend to live with my submissive or partner and we are partners and we do life together making it easier on both so the party can be had. If we are not yet living together... it isn't past me to go to his house and make things easier for him so that we can go have fun.

In no way do I think my relationship with a man is all about one. They are not all about kink or d/s or any one thing. I want it all and all things, for both people will be considered.

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(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: service - 1/13/2009 8:16:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I think that you may be assuming, wrongly, that my opinion is that the dominant... and in this case... me... doesn't do anything but expect service or chores done... with no respect for needs, desires, time, respect or kink that both enjoy.

Thanks for the point towards achieving clarification and harmony. I wrote my post with the interpretation quoted above and did not assume what I was assumed to have assumed in the my prior post ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 1/13/2009 8:22:28 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: service - 1/13/2009 8:18:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Thank you for the response. I wish to create negativity neither for you nor myself and would like to let this discussion rest. Perhaps we can exchange views at some other time.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 1/13/2009 8:24:55 PM >

(in reply to Lockit)

RE: service - 1/14/2009 12:21:13 AM

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quote:

OneMoreWaste wrote:
So what I'm mostly getting out of the responses is that, for a number of Dominant Women, spending three hours doing housework is preferable to spending a couple of minutes interacting with a submissive. This place is sooooo depressing

Then go back and read the thread more carefully. What you should be getting out of the responses is that the Dommes would rather spend three hours doing housework themselves than spend four hours interacting with a a submissive in a really boring way (telling him how to do the housework, pointing out things he's missed) then another hour `punishing' him for doing that housework badly and then another two hours doing the bits of the housework that the sub missed. Also, if you read even more carefully, you'll find them questioning whether a man who demands constant attention while doing housework and then demands punishment for his own inability to do the job that he demanded to do, is really submitting at all.

You seem to be under the impression that holding a riding crop and occasionally using it on a man's backside is inherently interesting to a Domme, regardless of the circumstances. You are mistaken in this belief.

beeble.

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 5:51:18 AM

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I must say, all this has moved a million miles away from the sort of scenario I was imagining and have experienced, as yet, only in a small way.

The vast bulk of my relationships in the past have been vanilla. In each one, I've done things for her, she's done things for me - both in the ordinary, vanilla way (out of affection, desire to help, just liking doing the job, whatever). That's the context in which I see all this.

In the past, when I've done things for a partner from all those vanilla bases, I've actually acted on Lady Hib's advice - that is, to recall her words: fantasies are great, they don't necessarily need to be shared, or used to interfere in real life.

Most of the things I've done for a partner haven't involved requests from her. However, with those that have, all it's taken for me to turn a job for her into one that gives me a big extra buzz is for me to have imagined her ordering me to do it rather than asking for me to do it. That's it - no more than that. (Well, it'd help if she didn't grin as she were giving the order, true.)

Is this kind of thing so difficult? It was fun, for both sides, in that short (but wonderful) period I experienced it in the past.

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 6:13:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Most of the things I've done for a partner haven't involved requests from her. However, with those that have, all it's taken for me to turn a job for her into one that gives me a big extra buzz is for me to have imagined her ordering me to do it rather than asking for me to do it. That's it - no more than that. (Well, it'd help if she didn't grin as she were giving the order, true.)

Is this kind of thing so difficult? It was fun, for both sides, in that short (but wonderful) period I experienced it in the past.

Giving someone a command or a request at the beginning of a chore is not difficult, no, and it is certainly the reason that some of the more unpleasant chores get done around my house, as when I tell the boykin that the bathroom has to be cleaned.

On the other hand, there is also a matter of providing ME with "extra buzz", and with a special feeling of being loved and served. And generally that feeling comes not from ORDERING him to serve me and being obeyed--it comes from having my needs anticipated correctly, because he has taken the time to learn my ways well enough. Or from an expressed desire to serve me in some way, because he can see that I am tired or distracted and stressed.

I think the thing that repeatedly slides by the majority of male subs, especially the ones who are unpartnered for long periods of time, is that real submission is NOT all about you. In fact, it is the ONE part of a BDSM relationship which is not all about you--your masochism and your needs as a bottom, whatever they are, really are fairly selfish needs at core, and they involve an energy drain on your top no matter how sexy and pleasing you are while having them met. By definition the bottom is always the one who does less "work" and expends less energy in any scene--bottoming is about receiving focused attention. It is always easier to react than to act, to move rather than to motivate, to receive than to give.

Do I enjoy topping, dominating, yadda yadda yadda? Yes, certainly. But I also enjoy lifting weights and other forms of exercise, I enjoy writing, creating artwork, dancing--all sorts of things that drain my energy. Just because I enjoy it at some level does not mean I can go on and on pouring out energy inexhaustibly every minute of every day. At some point my tankj needs to be refilled by receiving something in return.

Some "submissives" will literally vampirically kill you if you let them. Their needs are so tremendous and their desire to genuinely give is so non-existent that a dominant will rack up a huge energy debt and end up a hollow husk with such a partner. Sometimes so drained that he or she assumes that dominance has "gone away" and it's time to "leave the scene". And in fairness, I have seen similar things happen to submissives who DO genuinely give and receive nothing they need in return from an abusive dominant. One friend of mine in particular had an ugly horror story about a woman he served as a "male wife"--he worked a full day, came home, prepared meals and bathed and attended her three children through bedtime, while she did nothing but sat on her ass, and slaved to keep her kitchen immaculate. Then he would come into the kitchen at the end of his exhausting day at 10:00 pm and find that she had cut herself a slice of messy chocolate cake and literally tossed the filthy cake knife in the middle of the kitchen floor.

This kind of strain broke him VERY quickly and he stopped seeking a domme for quite some time. I could not blame him.

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 10:15:20 AM

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General reply

Quoting ShaktiSama

On the other hand, there is also a matter of providing ME with "extra buzz", and with a special feeling of being loved and served. And generally that feeling comes not from ORDERING him to serve me and being obeyed--it comes from having my needs anticipated correctly, because he has taken the time to learn my ways well enough. Or from an expressed desire to serve me in some way, because he can see that I am tired or distracted and stressed.

Is this common, then? I seem to be seeing a general theme emerging on this thread: that being ordered by the dominant gives the sub more of a D/s buzz than issuing the order gives the dominant.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/14/2009 10:16:54 AM >

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 10:20:05 AM

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I think that is true...at least I will say it is for me...and I think my Lady as well. We don't do much protocol and I love doing things for her without being asked as I know that makes her feel loved and cared for. But I do get a little buzz when she tells me to do things, or gives me her patented "Domme look" when I get to declarative around her.

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 10:27:17 AM

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I think it all depends Peon. There are far too many things to consider to isolate the topic to one or two things and how things are done and why and what one gets out of it. There are times I truely enjoy making an order... other times... not so much, it just may need to be done. There are emotionally or physically charged moments and then just the every day run of the mill... do it order just for general purposes or need to do so.

When I am getting a charge... most likely so is he. That is what makes us a match... we like the way we have worked things out. Does everyone see it the same way? No...

I see far more in the post's. Not one simple conclusion that fits all. I see many different types of relationships or dynamic's and I see a lot of.. it should be this way or it is that way or that can't be right... and a struggle between dominant and submissive minds, coming from different places, wanting different outcomes. That is why a good match between two people or more... is what matter's here.

Who cares how I do things with my submissive's? Only them and me. Anyone else... who the hell cares? I don't care to get into anyone else's relationship and no one else should be in mine. Enter at your own risk I say. Judge at will... go for it... enjoy yourselves... but the bottom line isn't in how one judges or perceive's things... but in how we each chose to live and how happy we are doing it. No one else needs to understand or agree with what people do or what they like. Understanding would be nice... but that is conditional upon many things.

It is a big mistake to consider there is one way to do it or that all are the same way.

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 10:48:56 AM

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her patented "Domme look"

Ooooh - what does that look like? Details, Otters!

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 10:59:28 AM

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It is a big mistake to consider there is one way to do it or that all are the same way

Of course! That goes without saying. Or, at least, it should go without saying. Unfortunately, people do so often tend to define things for everyone the way that suits their own preconceived and preferred categories. I know it well: it's a major part of what keeps academics in jobs. I'm only wanting to canvass opinions here rather than arrive at some "general rule" (that'll only get instantly broken, anyway).

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 11:08:51 AM

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Are you saying... Peon... big bad domme look... that I should shut up and not have said that? hehe

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 12:07:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I think the thing that repeatedly slides by the majority of male subs, especially the ones who are unpartnered for long periods of time, is that real submission is NOT all about you. In fact, it is the ONE part of a BDSM relationship which is not all about you--your masochism and your needs as a bottom, whatever they are, really are fairly selfish needs at core, and they involve an energy drain on your top no matter how sexy and pleasing you are while having them met. By definition the bottom is always the one who does less "work" and expends less energy in any scene--bottoming is about receiving focused attention. It is always easier to react than to act, to move rather than to motivate, to receive than to give.

This comment is right on target. I'm not putting anyone into a stereotype, but the truth of the matter is, most submissives don't know all that it takes to Top in a scene. I'm exerting Myself a lot more physically than the bottom. To put it bluntly, I've probably worked My ass off.

I'm not negating the fact that the bottom has spent just as much time playing as I have and I'm not saying that I'm not getting anything out of it. What I am saying is, I'm definitely the one putting the most into it. I won't get into the arguement about whether or not there is an art to being a good bottom, but I can promise you that there's certainly a lot that goes into being a good top.

Now I'll ask you. If I'm the one putting all of this into a scene for both of us to have a good time, is it really such a sin that the submissive make Me breakfast the next day?

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: service - 1/14/2009 3:12:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm not negating the fact that the bottom has spent just as much time playing as I have and I'm not saying that I'm not getting anything out of it.

No, of course not. But when two people are participating in a massage, and one person is giving it and the other is receiving it, it is EXTREMELY rare that the giver is drawing more energy from that exchange than the receiver, even if both are finding it enjoyable. That is the core difference between topping and bottoming in any dynamic, vanilla or D/S.

The sort of submission I enjoy allows me to "be the bottom" in ways I find pleasurable. To receive rather than to give for a while, and balance and renew my emotional well. It replenishes my desire to put energy into my partner, to keep that positive loving flow continuous.

The details of what I like to receive don't particularly matter, I just always find it painful when someone's vision of "serving" me doesn't touch on them at all. Especially when it doesn't even occur to the guy to wonder what I might like, what would make me feel good, what would please me. When a man's idea of service is all about him, and he can't understand why I would like to take a break from worrying about his "buzz"--Christ, using language like that really makes it sound as if a dominant woman is just a needle full of heroin on legs, who exists only to feed his addiction.

Under those circumstance...yeah, male "submission" becomes a negative, as Waste would say--just another expression of stereotypical Western Male Sexual Narcissism. Who needs it?

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RE: service - 1/14/2009 3:44:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

her patented "Domme look"

Ooooh - what does that look like? Details, Otters!

It is the "Oh Really?" face with a hint of a "You sure you want to go there?" smirk. It is devastatingly effective.

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

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