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Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 11:23:52 AM

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I'm increasingly concerned by the humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza, and the almost apathetic attitude people have over it, and the unflinching support people hold for Israel.

When we're confronted with the horrifying raw numbers - around 14 deaths on the Israeli side and over 800 on the Palestinian side - people casually say "it's Hamas' fault, they broke the ceasefire, Israel has to defend itself from rocket attacks".

But it really isn't as cut and dry as that.

Here is a BBC article that says Israel broke the latest ceasefire early in November 2008.

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310

Here is another article showing that it was possibly Israel, and not Hamas, that broke the ceasefire.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-israel-gaza_greenbergnov17,0,7989972.story

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/09/israel-rejected-hamas-cea_n_156639.html

So now that its been established that it isn't so easy to put all the blame on Hamas for the current violence, what else can we establish about the situation? The Israeli government casually shrug off the large numbers of dead, "collateral damage" in a fight with "eeeeeeeeevil terrorists". But is the Israeli government really doing what it can to avoid civilian death?

Pictures show that Israel have been using white phosherous, a chemical weapon banned by the UN. There have also been reports of depleted uranium found in Gaza victims. Not to mention the UN school that Israel bombed (that the UN intends to investigate as a war crime, the UN insists there were no Hamas members in the building), the UN aid convoy that Israel bombed, the "safe" house that Israel moved over a hundred people into and then bombed 24 hours later. And, we probably haven't even seen the half of it, as Israel refuses to allow journalists into Gaza.

If it were any other nation than Israel doing this, the international condemnation would be a lot louder, and we would not have the deafening silence from the US.

Here's a clip of an ex Israeli captain talking about the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0rVben_D5g&feature=channel_page

What do you think of the situation?

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 11:34:34 AM

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quote:

unflinching support people hold for Israel.

oh that counts for Palestine side also... (as in this thread perhaps)

but the situation is indeed shitty.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/11/2009 11:35:13 AM >

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 12:01:03 PM

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@OP...Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel since the ceasefire first began....you might one to try being less biased in your research...And Hamas also agrees that it broke the ceasefire and did not wish to renegotiate it.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 1:58:08 PM

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Kaine, more examples right above. Among the populations you will find the strongest support for Israel in the US, except perhaps in Israel. This is because of an obviously biased media. Look at your own cites, BBC, and Hufflington is known as a populist or alternative news source. As such you find popular support for Israel at a much lower rate in the rest of the world.

I have seen the phrase used here - Israel won her indenpence from the Palestinians. Anyone who knows jack shit about the history of the Israel of today knows that is such a spun phrase it is ridiculous. It is like saying the colonists here won their independence from the Natives. Only here would people accept such a phrase.

The Israel/Palestinian problem and the colonist/Native problems have differences, but certain similarities. First and foremost is the simplest, two peoples want to occupy the same place at the same time. We solved the problem here with what could be called about a 95% genocide. Those who remain are powerless. Israel is reluctant to do that because of the existence of mass media. No matter how much influence they have on "civilized" governments (AIPAC in the US), ergo media, they are not sure they could keep a lid on something like that. That is the only thing keeping them from killing the Palestinians down to every last Man, Woman and child.

And nobody start this "I hate Israel" shit, we did the same thing only worse, and because of the lack of mass communication during that part of history, we pretty much got away with it. I enjoy my land, small as it is, but I know it was stolen. That was long ago, but does that mean I have clean hands ?

I am just calling them as I see them. The whole Israel debacle started pretty much in 1948, a very different time than pre-US takeover here. The problem was exaserbated in 1967 with expansionists in Israel, who went so far as to destroy a US spy ship on purpose, the USS Liberty, so that even we, their "best" ally would not see what was going on. More recently Isreal put up a wall, which they call a security fence that causes great hardships for the Palestinians, even deaths. You can find that map on the net somewhere and if you look at it you see that wall is not intended to encourage peace.

So basically they want each other dead. Israelis want rid of all Palestinians, and Palestinians must know that they are never going to win, so their only option is to keep the Israelis from being comfortable, as long as they can [live] that is. I think soon the Palestinians will almost all be dead. They will be reduced in numbers to the point they can't even afford one decent bomb, then there will be pax judea.

Imagine if we would have left enough Natives around here to attack, to pull McVeighs and 9/11s from time to time. We would be in the same boat.

So to all the Israel firsters whio want to get down my throat, don't be ridiculous, I am the pot calling the kettle black, but admitting to same. Wartime is a time of change, and there are predators and there is prey. You kill the prey unless or until they have the ability to kill you. Face up to reality and the world makes alot more sense.

Oh, and if anyone thinks I am biased, I could always talk about US atrocities. How about experiments concerning nuclear radiation and syphillis for starters. Documented. There is plenty more.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 1/11/2009 2:01:33 PM >

(in reply to AhuvahXimena)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 4:17:07 PM

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Here is my youtube video on the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXpu5o8DQq4

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 4:35:26 PM

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Your link wasnt from the BBC news, it was the BBS news.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 8:47:39 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I'm increasingly concerned by the humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza, and the almost apathetic attitude people have over it, and the unflinching support people hold for Israel.

When we're confronted with the horrifying raw numbers - around 14 deaths on the Israeli side and over 800 on the Palestinian side - people casually say "it's Hamas' fault, they broke the ceasefire, Israel has to defend itself from rocket attacks".

But it really isn't as cut and dry as that.

Here is a BBC article that says Israel broke the latest ceasefire early in November 2008.

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310

Here is another article showing that it was possibly Israel, and not Hamas, that broke the ceasefire.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-israel-gaza_greenbergnov17,0,7989972.story

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer In December

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/09/israel-rejected-hamas-cea_n_156639.html

So now that its been established that it isn't so easy to put all the blame on Hamas for the current violence, what else can we establish about the situation? The Israeli government casually shrug off the large numbers of dead, "collateral damage" in a fight with "eeeeeeeeevil terrorists". But is the Israeli government really doing what it can to avoid civilian death?

Pictures show that Israel have been using white phosherous, a chemical weapon banned by the UN. There have also been reports of depleted uranium found in Gaza victims. Not to mention the UN school that Israel bombed (that the UN intends to investigate as a war crime, the UN insists there were no Hamas members in the building), the UN aid convoy that Israel bombed, the "safe" house that Israel moved over a hundred people into and then bombed 24 hours later. And, we probably haven't even seen the half of it, as Israel refuses to allow journalists into Gaza.

If it were any other nation than Israel doing this, the international condemnation would be a lot louder, and we would not have the deafening silence from the US.

Here's a clip of an ex Israeli captain talking about the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0rVben_D5g&feature=channel_page

What do you think of the situation?

During the cease fire and the rush to get aid into the strip, there was a truck full of UNIFORMS, now who wears uniforms in the Gaza strip?

So what if israel has killed 10 times or 1000000 times more of them then they have killed of her citizens.
IF they keep screwing with israel I hope she kicks the CRAP out of them.
She has been way to kind way too forgiving.
I bet that if some one , a stranger was to walk into your home at any time they wanted to, with out your permission you would call the police or confront them.
Hama's has attacked Israel time and time again,
DON'T want the horns, DONT FUCK with the bull.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 10:39:13 PM

vixxy

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Unfortunately many people rely totally on what the media tells them, instead of researching a situation. Its almost impossible to not be influenced by media, and depending where you live in the world and what news you listen to helps the census to favour one side or the other.

I always try to put myself in each position. I wonder how I would feel if there were terrorists in my town (I being totally innocent of any wrong doing and unable to leave the area) and someone came in and wanted to totally wipe it out, killing my children at school, blowing up my house and killing my family, cutting off all supplies such as food, energy and medicine and making it impossible to work or support my family. If you place yourself on the other side and know how hard it must be for people to be constantly tormented with small rockets landing around you.

I think its a tragedy when innocents get killed/murdered in any situation. I dont think it matters where you live in the world; your life still has meaning.

wishing you well,

vixxy

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 11:14:09 PM

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Joined: 12/8/2008
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"Israelis want rid of all Palestinians, and Palestinians must know that they are never going to win, so their only option is to keep the Israelis from being comfortable, as long as they can [live] that is. I think soon the Palestinians will almost all be dead. They will be reduced in numbers to the point they can't even afford one decent bomb, then there will be pax judea."

I have to point out a few things about this post. The reality is that Palestinian population has expanded over 4x since the creation of Isreal. If they are trying to shrink thier population, they are doing an incredibly poor job of it. The number of Isrealis Citizens of Palestinian Arab descent is increasing even faster.

Secondly, the Palestinians have always far too poor to afford a decent bomb. Untill the early 20th Century, the Arab world was one country. Palestine was the Mississippi of it. Outside forces who do not give a damn about the living conditions of the people of Palestine (and in fact have vested interests in keeping them suffering), have paid for their bombs. Since day one. What is going on now is a Shiite/Sunni battle for control. It has nothing to do with the conditions of the Palestinian people.

Can you give a single action of Isreal that would indicate a desire on their part to eliminate the Palestinians. They have had the capability to do that for decades now (once they got the A-bomb). Yet haven't. Why do you think? Media pressure? You have got to be kidding. They are already being described as Genocidal Nazis in much of the world Media. What worse could the media say?

(in reply to vixxy)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/11/2009 11:36:16 PM

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Joined: 10/3/2008
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quote " Israel is reluctant to do that because of the existence of mass media. No matter how much influence they have on "civilized" governments (AIPAC in the US), ergo media, they are not sure they could keep a lid on something like that. That is the only thing keeping them from killing the Palestinians down to every last Man, Woman and child. "
BULLSHIT
They do not want to kill anyone, they have been given no choice
read your history

We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. Golda Meir

< Message edited by manxcat -- 1/11/2009 11:54:44 PM >

_____________________________

The television, that insidious beast, that Medusa which freezes a
billion people to stone every night, staring fixedly,
that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little.
Ray Bradbury

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:22:23 AM

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More evidence of Hamas war Crimes
http://www.strategypage.com/military_videos/military_photos_20090111185044.aspx

This is how they fight - hiding behind children and under the skirts of women. Fuck 'em.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:55:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

During the cease fire and the rush to get aid into the strip, there was a truck full of UNIFORMS, now who wears uniforms in the Gaza strip?

Do you have any links on this?

quote:

So what if israel has killed 10 times or 1000000 times more of them then they have killed of her citizens.

So much for basic human compassion. Israeli lives are not worth more than Palestinian lives.

quote:

IF they keep screwing with israel I hope she kicks the CRAP out of them.
She has been way to kind way too forgiving.

Hmm, I wouldn't call an economic blockade kind, or carpet bombs in previous years forgiving.

quote:

I bet that if some one , a stranger was to walk into your home at any time they wanted to, with out your permission you would call the police or confront them.
Hama's has attacked Israel time and time again,
DON'T want the horns, DONT FUCK with the bull.

Ironic that you put it like that, seeing as its the Israelis that are the occupiers. In your little metaphor, you should be agreeing with the Hamas side of things - they are confronting the people that have occupied their land.

In your post, you don't comment once on Israel's use of illegal chemical weapons, or Israel's unlawful economic blockade, or Israel ignoring dozens of UN resolutions through the years, or Israel ignoring UN's call for Israel to ceasefire now, or Israel blocking media from entering Gaza. Your blind support is exactly the kind of mentality that needs to be challanged in this day and age.

If this were Iran and not Israel doing this to another nation, people would be furious.

(in reply to Coldwarrior57)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:58:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

More evidence of Hamas war Crimes
http://www.strategypage.com/military_videos/military_photos_20090111185044.aspx

This is how they fight - hiding behind children and under the skirts of women. Fuck 'em.

First of all, I find that very dodgy. It's a map my five year old niece could have drew. Whose to say the IDF didn't make it up? Second of all, Hamas are supposed to be the extremist terrorist group, what's Israel's excuse?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 2:05:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: manxcat

BULLSHIT
They do not want to kill anyone, they have been given no choice
read your history

We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. Golda Meir

No one is forcing Israel to do anything. Israel broke their ceasefire agreements and continiously ignore the calls of the UN and international world to ceasefire now. Your quote from Golda Meir is completely laughable when you look purely at the numbers of deaths on either side. Hamas aren't the ones using illegal chemical weapons, and yet they're supposed to be the eeeeeeeevil terrorist group.

(in reply to manxcat)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 3:07:26 AM

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Yes, kained, if one accepts your extremely limited analysis, the Jews are indeed evil thugs....

We get it you support Hamas and its strategy of getting as many Palestinains hurt as possible. You support the policy of ignoring basic needs, who needs a functioning sewage system anyway, to buy Quassam rockets. We get that you are pretending Isreal was occupying Gaza. We get that you are ignoring the UN calling for a cease fire on both sides. We get that you are ignoring half of the UN resolutions that you refer to. We get that you consider it ok for Hamas to fire rockets at Isreal. We get that you think it is Hamas' land. We get that you pretend Isreal carpet bombed Gaza.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 3:32:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Yes, kained, if one accepts your extremely limited analysis, the Jews are indeed evil thugs....

We get it you support Hamas and its strategy of getting as many Palestinains hurt as possible. You support the policy of ignoring basic needs, who needs a functioning sewage system anyway, to buy Quassam rockets. We get that you are pretending Isreal was occupying Gaza. We get that you are ignoring the UN calling for a cease fire on both sides. We get that you are ignoring half of the UN resolutions that you refer to. We get that you consider it ok for Hamas to fire rockets at Isreal. We get that you think it is Hamas' land. We get that you pretend Isreal carpet bombed Gaza.

Your post is full of ignorance of the facts.

The things that you say I am "pretending" are just plain facts, available for you to look at at your convenience. I do not think it is ok for Hamas to fire rockets at Israel, but it is an illusion that all the blame lies with Hamas.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 3:37:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

More evidence of Hamas war Crimes
http://www.strategypage.com/military_videos/military_photos_20090111185044.aspx

This is how they fight - hiding behind children and under the skirts of women. Fuck 'em.

First of all, I find that very dodgy. It's a map my five year old niece could have drew. Whose to say the IDF didn't make it up? Second of all, Hamas are supposed to be the extremist terrorist group, what's Israel's excuse?

I don't really care if you find it dodgy. It's always the same old shit with you Europeans. "Oh, those poor Palestinians! Them evil Joos are killing them all!"

But Europeans can never say what they really mean. They can't admit that when they say they are 'anti-Zionist" what they really mean is they hate Jews.
http://zionism-israel.com/linguistics_of_antizionism.html

I'm fed up with Eurotrash support of a bunch of murderous scum who hide behind women and children.

Hey, here's an idea!!! Instead of lapping up every propaganda pice Al-Jazeera put out for the jew-haters in Europe, why don't you go take a tour of Dachau or go see der haus der Wannsee-Konferenz outside of Berlin? Go hang out at Auschwitz or Treblinka. Maybe you can get a little more balance.

Naw, never happen. Too easy to hate the jews.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 4:03:02 AM

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I was just waiting for someone to suggest that I hate Jews.

It's an intellectually weak argument.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 4:21:39 AM

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I was just waiting for someone to suggest that I hate Jews.

It's an intellectually weak argument.

Really? Why is it that I never see anyone who pisses and moans about those poor Palestinians get equally as upset about some jerkoff fucks lobbing rockets at Israeli elementary schools?

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 4:27:37 AM

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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And did you actually read the Huffington Post article? Setting aside the fact that the whole thing is hearsay, the article states that Hamas will return to the cease fire state IT BROKE if Isreal does XYZ. What bullshit. Hamas broke the ceasefire, but it's Israels' fault that Hamas can't keep their fucking word. What unmitigated horseshit.

Fuck Hamas.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

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