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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 4:15:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You obviously dont like the democratic principal. Freedom of choice to have guns in a society, is no different from freedom of choice not to have them. I wonder if you would hold the same view if your child had been killed, somehow I doubt it.

I despise the democratic principle. I don't like the idea that 50.1 % of the population should be able to dictate to 49.9% of the population how to live their lives. to be honest, I don't like the fact that 99% of the population could tell 1% how to live. the same people that rally against sodomy laws or laws against gay marraige rush to the support of mob rule the second the mob supports something they like. I, at least, am consistent. I haven't had a child killed but I did have a cousin murdered in his home by a gun. my opinion hasn't changed...perhaps because I don't base my opinions on emotional reactions to events.

here is the problem with the freedom of choice to have guns in a society and the freedom of choice not to have them in a society...

in one, the individual is left up to make his or her own mind up about whether or not to own a particular object. in the other, individuals are not afforded that liberty. you can substitute anything into that sentence and it sound quite silly "Freedom of choice to have premarital sex/alcohol/homosexual marraige/universal suffrage/slavery/free speech in a society, is no different from freedom of choice not to have them." I don't even know what you were thinking when you wrote that...it's the exact opposite. in one example you have a freedom to participate or not participate in x. in the other, you have no freedom and are forced (despite your will) not to participate.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 4:18:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

But the UK people couldn't care less about guns. It's a different culture to the US.

that's pretty sloppy thinking. there is not entity that is 'UK people' that thinks to itself 'I coudln't care less about guns'. there may be a large amount of individuals who think that...but let's not use the collective pronouns when they are innaccurate.

in the US, there are people who have varying opinions. it's like that for everything from whether or not you should be allowed to sit naked in your backyard to whether or not you should be able to allow smoking in a restaurant. there is no US consensus just as there is no UK consensus.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 4:20:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

There are certainly other variables. High crime tends to happen where there is more poverty, for example.

But one thing is for sure - if the US implimented more effective gun control measures, the rate of school shootings would drop. And the rate of accidental gun deaths would also drop.

if we outlawed automobiles, accidental car deaths would also drop. vehicular manslaughter would also drop. I just don't see the logic in banning a product because of accidents and misuses of that product. banning smoking would decrease certain diseases. banning fried foods would decrease certain disesases, etc. what makes these actions any more or less appealing than banning guns?

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 4:26:19 PM

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Im sorry to here of the loss of your cousin, and apologise for my remark.

How much choice do you fell you would have in a place with no democracy, such as China ? My point still stands that we have collectively decided to have a ban on handguns. Your analogy makes no sense, are you saying there should be no restrictions. That people can drink drive no matter who they endanger ? It seems to me that with no democracy the individual has far less choice. Neither sytem may be perfect but democracy is the better. You could twist yout last statement on its head, and say that you have the freedom to keep your children safe by banning guns, or the freedom to imperil them.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 4:28:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

I despise the democratic principle. I don't like the idea that 50.1 % of the population should be able to dictate to 49.9% of the population how to live their lives. to be honest, I don't like the fact that 99% of the population could tell 1% how to live. the same people that rally against sodomy laws or laws against gay marraige rush to the support of mob rule the second the mob supports something they like. I, at least, am consistent. I haven't had a child killed but I did have a cousin murdered in his home by a gun. my opinion hasn't changed...perhaps because I don't base my opinions on emotional reactions to events.

here is the problem with the freedom of choice to have guns in a society and the freedom of choice not to have them in a society...

in one, the individual is left up to make his or her own mind up about whether or not to own a particular object. in the other, individuals are not afforded that liberty. you can substitute anything into that sentence and it sound quite silly "Freedom of choice to have premarital sex/alcohol/homosexual marraige/universal suffrage/slavery/free speech in a society, is no different from freedom of choice not to have them." I don't even know what you were thinking when you wrote that...it's the exact opposite. in one example you have a freedom to participate or not participate in x. in the other, you have no freedom and are forced (despite your will) not to participate.

Hmm, your argument is full of holes.

You say that with one option, the individual is left to make up their own mind about whether or not to own a certain object. The second option, the people that would choose to own that object would no longer have that option.

But you're ignoring one thing, and this is why democracy is so important.

The first option takes away the choice to not have your society dominated or in some way compromised by that object. Where's the freedom of choice in getting shot in the back by some wacko who's decided to go on a killing spree with the guns he got from Wallmart? Granted, the majority of people can get it wrong (like with prop 8). But gay marriage in no way inflicts upon my rights as an individual, or the freedom or safety of society as a whole. A lack of gun control absolutely does infringe upon those things. And the fact that the UK has avoided repeating the horrible Dunblane tragedy is powerful.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 4:31:03 PM

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Britain wants guns back? No we don't.....'nuff said.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 5:21:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Britain wants guns back? No we don't.....'nuff said.

But we are a nation of fools and communists

.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 5:52:11 PM

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I read the whole thread and Ive just gotta say bloody hell. firstly to mr 'I need to protect myself with a gun' that is fine you do that, have you seen one just one British person come on to this thread and say they want one? hell that they even need one? NO and yet we have people from America saying that we should? Urm no again. Im not going to argue democracy with you this is about safty the ONLY people in britain that would want a gun for protection is the type of person who will end up killing someone.

There clearly is a differant culture over here. We dont have debates about whether we should have guns it simply isnt an issue. Rather than adding to any problem we have (like for example aspiring to be like another nation) I think it really is best that we deal with that crap first.

Sorry I am rather angry

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 5:56:58 PM

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Fast Reply:

As I said earlier, I really don't care about UK's gun laws. But this does seem a little silly to me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7331099.stm

and this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7508404.stm

and this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/surrey/6613353.stm

Apparently anything that can possibly be used to injure another person is ripe for a ban in the UK.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 5:58:10 PM

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Yeah christ we dont have any freedom over here, its such a crap life, im just hopping on a plane and moving to the freedom of the deep south

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:02:13 PM

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LOL.........that is funny

who cares if you guys across the pond have guns or not. i for one certainly don't. and yes if i have to shoot someone to prevent them from hurting me or another innocent citizen, i do plan on my bullet counting and that it stops their sorry ass and kills them DEAD!

mrs.'i need to protect myself with a gun'

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:03:10 PM

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I'm not saying that you live behind the Iron Curtain. But a ban on samurai swords? The police are offering to round up and destroy BB guns? I even saw a couple of stories about people calling for a ban on air guns. People are calling for a ban on pointed kitchen knives?

I'm sorry if I find that to be a bit ridiculous. Do y'all really have a lot of people running around getting into sword fights?

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:08:34 PM

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You know who plays with crap like BB guns over here?

Children, they take them to school and shoot them at people in the play ground, because that makes them look hard and all that rubbish. There was a period of a few years when children were doing it to a stupid extent, In fact I have a BB scar on me, my friend has a massive mark where it got infected yadda yadda. Its immitation. One of my friends brother was put in jail for armed robbery, because we dont have real guns over here very much people used BB guns to intimidate

Oh and BestBaby I was actually refering to a person on this thread not general people. I dont care if you lot want to have guns I just dont want to be told that makes us wrong becuase it really doesnt

< Message edited by colouredin -- 1/22/2009 6:09:58 PM >

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:10:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Fast Reply:

As I said earlier, I really don't care about UK's gun laws. But this does seem a little silly to me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7331099.stm

and this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7508404.stm

and this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/surrey/6613353.stm

Apparently anything that can possibly be used to injure another person is ripe for a ban in the UK.

Wouldn't it be better to deal with violence,aggression, mental illness and mental abuse to ward attacks? Instead of banning devices and inanimate objects? Criminals in jail can kill, with all kinds of things including sheets and knife type objects made from plastic utensils such as tooth brushes.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:19:02 PM

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Oh ya just have to love threads like this one.

In the Uk there is no choice over whether to carry a gun or not. It's illegal, end of story. Do i know people who would carry guns / have guns who live in the UK, yes i do. Do i know people in the uk who have illegal guns? Yes i do.

It's a pointless argument really. In the main the US posters will argue for gun's and the UK poster will argue against them. The reasons / opinions / facts etc never change in these arguments.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:40:20 PM

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Believe me, I speak for the majority in the UK, when I say that Britain really does not want to go back to guns (or, the feudal system, speaking lating, bear bating, or World War One).

There seems to be a general (though not universal) spilt in opinions here. The vast majority in the UK have no interest in guns (and indeed do not want them around), and most Americans seem to think everyone should have them. I wonder if the origin of this lies in the type of nations we are.

In the UK, we have been here for hundreds of years, and for most of that time have only needed to defend our borders. For that reason we only need weapons pointing outwards at would be invaders, not inwards at each other. The US was a country founded in a battle between the Native Americans and the European Immmigrants. So was born in as a 'frontier', a mentality that perhaps still exists to a degree.

One of the main things that puts us of the idea guns in the UK, is seeing what happens in America. Ultimately the British don't want more weapons, anything can be used to cause harm, but a lunatic armed with a fruit knife (range: 18 inches) can do less harm and is easier to overpower than one with a gun (range: yards).

The UK will never go back to guns, and the Americans will probably never let go of theirs. Ultimately it's only really important to the parents of the kids killed in the regular classroom massacres in America. If that is the price America wishes to pay for hanging onto guns, then that is their choice.

I find it sad, but I don't see this thread (or any other) changing opinions on either side of the Atlantic.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:42:36 PM

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i believe most americans whether they want to own a gun or not, do not want the government to take away their rights, such as owning a gun, choice in religion and even freedom to get an abortion.
Life, Liberty, Freedom and the Pursuit of Happiness(so happy holding my .38 S&W Guardian) ....just sayin

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 6:52:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I read the whole thread and Ive just gotta say bloody hell. firstly to mr 'I need to protect myself with a gun' that is fine you do that, have you seen one just one British person come on to this thread and say they want one? hell that they even need one? NO and yet we have people from America saying that we should? Urm no again. Im not going to argue democracy with you this is about safty the ONLY people in britain that would want a gun for protection is the type of person who will end up killing someone.

There clearly is a differant culture over here. We dont have debates about whether we should have guns it simply isnt an issue. Rather than adding to any problem we have (like for example aspiring to be like another nation) I think it really is best that we deal with that crap first.

Sorry I am rather angry

Hey, colouredin... I feel your pain. I honestly don't think they'll ever get it, though

.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 7:06:39 PM

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kittin
read post #76.....maybe if you knew more about American History, you would not have pain bout us not getting it.......

painman66, thank you for your post.

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RE: britain wants guns back - 1/22/2009 7:11:55 PM

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I honestly don't see what your spurious conception of 'freedom and liberty' has to do with fox hunting and the rejection by the British people of gun ownership: you DO realise you're in Great Britain right now, don't you?

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