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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 6:47:46 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14442
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		We've run into this alot in our search for a third. We will ask questions trying to learn about WHO she is as a person and the answers we get are D/s platitudes. We'll give it several attempts and explain what we're asking, and we'll still get the platitiudes. At that point we walk away.

I have the advantage of being platonic friends with Master for years before we ever dated, so communication was already established before our relationship.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 7:03:42 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What does work, for me, is a matter of framing things in terms of meaning . If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.


i find this to be an extraordinary and most interesting analogy. while i understand the concept of the choice being acting of your will and that of your partner, i do find it curious. a long time ago, i loved someone this much and still would have said that whole grain bread it better for him as well. i understand the bread is not the issue -

what happens for you in pleasing him over acting of your own will when you know he is wrong?

For the submissives/slaves - do you feel free to respond with your own opinion when you know he is wrong? Do you agree because you place his will over yours?

For the dominants/masters - are you comfortable or is your *s* allowed to disagree when you are wrong? how do you respond to this?

newflowers

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 7:14:29 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I prefer, in a relationship, to never take a stand one way or the other. I can't be accused of lying, nor am I telling anyone what they want to hear ... as I am in fact telling them nothing at all.

There is a certain remarkable simplicity to this approach ... either that, or I'm just keeping relationship partners off balance, and/or can't stand boring relationships.

The erudite readers should choose which option, serves them best.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 7:31:13 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers


what happens for you in pleasing him over acting of your own will when you know he is wrong?

newflowers


This is an excellent point/question. I knew I liked you when I read your initial post.
I dont mean to beg the question, but I must point out that my foremost requirement that I held when searching for a dominant was that he possess far above-average intelligences of several different types. I did this because I knew that the only way that I would be able to trust a dominant with my will would be if I knew he were more intelligent than I am.
That said, no, I am not dating God.
So, you are very wise to bring up this point. (Yes, wheat bread is healthier than white bread for both of us.) And I am fortunate enough to enjoy the type of relationship where my opinion is heard and valued and considered and weighed - one most convenient coincidence is that my dominant also holds incredibly high standards when it comes to the intelligence of his partners (ok I know that makes me sound arrogant, but those are his words). That helps. It also helps that we are able to turn up and town down the D/s dynamic, at his discretion, so that there exists within our private life a place where we are both free to communicate honestly about what it is that we desire, believe, and prefer.
I think it helps that my partner is a. very intelligent, b. like me in his world-view, c. highly intuitive (for a guy :-) ) and emotionally healthy and d. not delusional.
People are, in fact, still wrong sometimes, though. You are correct.
When it comes to decisions of weight, I believe that gestures of submission (the manner inwhich I approach him, the language that I choose to use, the timing of my approach, the outward expression of the attitude of my heart at the time - and I wish to be clear that I am not talking about manipulation here, but rather a sense of deference that is a genuine and heartfelt conscious choice) can be enough of an act of submission that my coming forth to say " i believe that you are wrong" for the sake OF THE RELATIONSHIP or OUR MUTUAL BENEFIT and not my own ego, does not threaten the integrity of our chosen dynamic while allowing room for my assertion that a different choice may be more beneficial for the sake of us.
But this would have to do more with my desire to put what-is-us first than to put myself first, and so, in my opinion, Im still acting from a place of submission. I know that in my own relationship, a concern brought forth in this manner would not only be valued for its own sake but the manner inwhich it was carefully presented would also be valued as an act of submission.
But, then, Im a damn lucky girl.


(...i tried to edit for run-on-sentences, but, I give up...)


< Message edited by justheather -- 1/9/2006 7:36:10 PM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 8:12:05 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCompassion

One man once told me something that has stuck in my mind and I think it relates to this. He said that "when I ask you if you like it you should say yes and mean it" (within reason of safety and such ). So he is saying that you should answer to please your Master/Mistress but you should also mean it because it is pleasing to Him or Her.


If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.
If I can honestly say "yes" in those terms, it is no longer about whether or not I want to eat white bread. Therefore, I am able to answer honestly because I want to do what pleases him more than


But do you LIKe it and MEAN it? Notice how the part you quoted didn't actually ask if you WANTED to do it (that was a forgone conclusion) but it talked about actually LIKING it. Just because you want to eat white bread for him more than you want to eat whole grain bread for yourself doesn't mean you like eating white bread and I think that's what Lady Compassion was saying. What I got from her statement was that it's not enough to want to do it for them because it pleases them you have to go one step further and like it. While it may be easy to say "Oh yes, it's just a matter of framing it so that if he likes it then I like it because it pleases him" but in reality there's a whole lot of things Doms ask of their submissives that goes way beyond ingesting bland white bread. You might be asked to ingest something significantly less palatable - and LIKE it.

Totally as an aside: Kinda reminds me of that geriatric character on Saturday Night Live (back in the days when it was still funny) who'd go on long diatribes about walking 10 miles, uphill in both directions, in winter, through the snow, with no boots...."and we LIKED it!"

< Message edited by MsIncognito -- 1/9/2006 8:18:10 PM >

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 8:20:59 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

This is an excellent point/question. I knew I liked you when I read your initial post.
I dont mean to beg the question, but I must point out that my foremost requirement that I held when searching for a dominant was that he possess far above-average intelligences of several different types.


then we shall have a mutual admiration society of two - i asked because your response was well articulated and coherent. i most appreciate your point about his "intelligences" - plural. your statements about the intelligence of the both of you - this is not arrogant - it is fact for you; false modesty is a sincere form of hypocrisy. and i understand - one of the requirements i have for a partner is that be more than me - stronger, etc. but also more intelligent - it is necessary.

thanks for answering my question.

newflowers

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 8:28:39 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers

quote:

What does work, for me, is a matter of framing things in terms of meaning . If my dominant wants me to eat white bread while I have become accustomed to only eating whole grain breads and shunning white bread for the sake of my health, it is not a matter of my simply saying "yes" to the question "Do you want to eat white bread?" but rather a matter of my deciding that I want to eat white bread for him more than I want to eat whole grain bread for myself . So,no, I am not to say "yes" unless I mean it. And the way I am able to say yes honestly is to frame it so that it is not a choice between wheat bread and white bread, but a choice between pleasing him and acting of my own will.


i find this to be an extraordinary and most interesting analogy. while i understand the concept of the choice being acting of your will and that of your partner, i do find it curious. a long time ago, i loved someone this much and still would have said that whole grain bread it better for him as well. i understand the bread is not the issue -

what happens for you in pleasing him over acting of your own will when you know he is wrong?

For the submissives/slaves - do you feel free to respond with your own opinion when you know he is wrong? Do you agree because you place his will over yours?

For the dominants/masters - are you comfortable or is your *s* allowed to disagree when you are wrong? how do you respond to this?

newflowers


Yes, I am comfortable with my slave disagreeing if she thinks I'm wrong about something. Further, I am cool with it leading to a discussion of the issue. In fact, I encourage and even expect input from her. Two heads are better than one, right? If we can resolve it to the point of agreement, all the better. If we can't, well, the final decision is mine to make....even if I'm messing up.

That said, when I see that I have indeed screwed up, I admit it and do what I can to remedy the situation...apologizing, disassembling and reassembling, making a U-turn, or whatever....

Bob

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 8:34:54 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

We've run into this alot in our search for a third. We will ask questions trying to learn about WHO she is as a person and the answers we get are D/s platitudes. We'll give it several attempts and explain what we're asking, and we'll still get the platitiudes. At that point we walk away.

I have the advantage of being platonic friends with Master for years before we ever dated, so communication was already established before our relationship.

Which sadly is only perpetuated by the number of doms who give "essay assignments" like candy to new subs to get them to write essays on "what is submission" and the like which just fills them up with more platitudes about power, surrender, etc, and no sincere comprehension or internalization.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 8:35:36 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		I like honesty, as long as it is delivered in a tactful and respectful way. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 9:19:09 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I like honesty, as long as it is delivered in a tactful and respectful way. M


At what point does the condition on honesty become an issue? i belieive that in the course of introductory conversation - even conversation with intent - while one may be polite, it is not necessarily the same deference shown to a dominant partner. i consider everything before an official "we are a committed item" introductory dancing.

Do you expect the same deference from someone you are speaking to as that you would expect from a partner within a committed relationship?

newflowers

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 9:30:52 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
"The artlessness of unadorned truth, however sure in theory of extorting admiration, rarely in practice fails inflicting pain and mortification."

Fanny Burney

"God offers every mind its choice between truth and repose. Take which you please, you can never have both."

Emmerson

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 9:37:14 PM   
cravinspankin


Posts: 127
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCompassion

One man once told me something that has stuck in my mind and I think it relates to this. He said that "when I ask you if you like it you should say yes and mean it" (within reason of safety and such ). So he is saying that you should answer to please your Master/Mistress but you should also mean it because it is pleasing to Him or Her.


When the Dom i'm seeing now asks me if i like something, i'll be totally honest. Sometimes, that meant saying, No, Sir, i don't like 'whatever' but i accept it because it pleases You."

(in reply to LadyCompassion)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 9:46:26 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Do you expect the same deference from someone you are speaking to as that you would expect from a partner within a committed relationship?
I expect that kind of deference from anyone interested in entering into or remaining in a relationship with me. The general public's honesty I don't worry about much, and the people I love treat me with kindness and respect (the way I do them) even when delivering an honest message. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 10:42:22 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

For the dominants/masters - are you comfortable or is your *s* allowed to disagree when you are wrong? how do you respond to this?
Of course my sub is allowed to disagree; I love to learn, and love a man who's smart enough to teach me things I don't know, as long as he is kind/respectful in his delivery, otherwise, I'd tell him exactly where he can shove his honesty, lol.
quote:

"The artlessness of unadorned truth, however sure in theory of extorting admiration, rarely in practice fails inflicting pain and mortification."
Fanny Burney


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/9/2006 11:37:16 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/9/2006 11:34:00 PM   
veronicaofML


Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline 		familiar?

nope
I am as honest as the day is light...and night is dark.

"I" am not telling ANYONE what I think they want to hear...NO ONE!

if you aint adult enough to accept my honest answers,,,then you are telling me ya want me to lie...and "I" REFUSE to lie !!!



_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"



(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 2:39:09 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		I do not want an oily, sycophantic slave supporting me when dealing with others, no matter what the medium. My slave who posts on here sometimes, ChainedExistence, is intelligent and opinonated. She lives near me and we debate art, history and politics. I value her opinions and when she rarely falls into the trap of blindly supporting me out of loyalty, I remind her that is not what I want.

In private, I have noticed that I was much more tolerant of her views of D/s when we first met while, now, I tend to steer things my way. There are many ways to say why I do this, but it comes down to something like I know what is best for the relationship and intensity. She may comment on something and I will listen attentively, but she doesn't win these matters often.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 2:50:30 AM   
sweetpettjenny


Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		If its something i don't particularly like and he wants or wants to do to me , i am his slave , there are tactful ways , like saying " Master if you want it , as long as you are happy with it i am too. They normally can read between the lines and know you dislike it or are afraid of it. I personally know he would know , because if i enjoyed or wanted it , id be bent over or jumping to do it instead of talking. Communication is key, and i know there are going to be things he wants that i don't...i submitted as his slave which means i do as he wishes.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 3:18:54 AM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

<snip>
When it comes to decisions of weight, I believe that gestures of submission (the manner inwhich I approach him, the language that I choose to use, the timing of my approach, the outward expression of the attitude of my heart at the time - and I wish to be clear that I am not talking about manipulation here, but rather a sense of deference that is a genuine and heartfelt conscious choice) can be enough of an act of submission that my coming forth to say " i believe that you are wrong" for the sake OF THE RELATIONSHIP or OUR MUTUAL BENEFIT and not my own ego, does not threaten the integrity of our chosen dynamic while allowing room for my assertion that a different choice may be more beneficial for the sake of us.
But this would have to do more with my desire to put what-is-us first than to put myself first, and so, in my opinion, Im still acting from a place of submission. I know that in my own relationship, a concern brought forth in this manner would not only be valued for its own sake but the manner inwhich it was carefully presented would also be valued as an act of submission.
But, then, Im a damn lucky girl.


Lots of insight points here. Thank you.

I presume honesty is critical to all relationships, so I have no debate with that matter. The complexity I am trying to articulate is in part reflected in justheather's comments and in the comments about the struggle with knowing one's free will as a slave.

In this scenario, my assumption is that the sub/slave has been in a relationship for "awhile" and so is not new to it. As the sub/slave learns how to please her Master and understand her own submission, there may be a point of confusion internally where her "old self," so to speak, resists going deeper, in order to be "honest" with herself, while her emerging "slave self" has been learning "the gestures of submission" in an honest expressive way and is ready to reach a deeper submission. There is a point where she may be confused about whether it is "more honest" to please her Master or revert to her "old self" view of her honesty as she knew it then. There is this internal battle within her when she is not sure which "honesty" is true now for her. It strikes me as a crossroads moment, when she can breakthrough to more fully embrace being a sub/slave and be honest with herself in that way or decide, for whatever reasons, she is best to revert to her "old self" and at least for this Master it is "honest" not move further.

I want to better understand this internal battle within her because I see it as real and more common than not among subs/slaves.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 3:20:05 AM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I prefer, in a relationship, to never take a stand one way or the other. I can't be accused of lying, nor am I telling anyone what they want to hear ... as I am in fact telling them nothing at all.


I have an opinion on this post.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 3:32:08 AM   
strikingpeach


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		I always assume that if my Dom asks me a question, that he wants an honest answer. What he does with the information he is given is for him to decide. If he asks me if my knees are getting tired from kneeling and I answer "yes, a bit", then it is up to him to use that informatin for his own pleasure...he can choose to let me stand up or he can choose to let them get more tired.

sp

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 40
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