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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 4:54:11 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

Does this situation sound familiar to others?

No.. doesn't sound familiar at all. To be blunt, I think the whole senario is predicated on a false, or at least a bad, assumption. It assumes the dominant in the relationship ever actually wants to be lied to. I suppose there are some out there for whom that might be true... I wouldn't consider such "dominants" worth wasting time on. Just to be blunt.

To explain what I mean I'll raise two points.

First, I don't see that any dominant who is secure in themselves would want to be told "pretty lies." A desire for that indicates insecurity to me. Asking someone to stroke your ego with lies is a very insecure and unfair thing to do. This is not an attractive quality in a dominant, its not the kind of thing that inspires confidence.

Secondly, I don't see that honesty needs to lead to a quarrel, argument, or a disagreement. To illustrate my point I'll use a fictional example.

Suppose a dominant is training his slave as a puppygirl... it amuses him to do so. Part of this includes requiring her to eat from a dog dish.
The slave, wanting to please her master, complies with this... though somewhat unenthusiastically.
The master later asks the slave what she thinks about being made to eat from a dog dish.

At this point the slave might respond in one of two ways.
Option one - "I hate eating out of that damn dish and I think its stupid... I don't understand it and I don't want to do it anymore. Are you just trying to degrade me and make me feel worthless? I thought you cared about me?"

Option two - "I don't like it sir, it makes me feel uncomfortable... like I'm being degraded. Can I ask why you require this of me sir?"

Both options express how the slave feels... unhappy with it. The first option however is beligerant, hostile and disrespectful... it might well lead to an argument. But that argument will be more about her attitude than the dog dish. The second option still expresses her feelings honestly, but its respectful and she honestly asks for an explanation about why she is required to do this.

My point being that a submissive can be honest without being disrespectful, without burying her feelings. If that were my slave and it was bothering her that much I'd want to know so that I could deal with it appropriately. I don't need pretty lies anymore than I will tolerate beligerance... either is likely to result in a submissive being dismissed.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 5:21:46 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

I think alot of Sub's have never been programed to actually say EXACTLY what they want. They are pleasers so they try to please, if they can find something good in part if not all, they will try to deal with it the best they can . . . to please. It's not lying, it's not even avoiding, it's part of their personality, a weakness of sorts in some ways.
I was thinking about something quite similar this evening. One of the reasons so many Sub's feel taken advantage of and so many Dom's feel Sub's lie. It takes alot to build a naturally submissive female into a strong submissive that is aware of her likes and dislikes, that can speak of them in a tone that isnt threatening and stick to her guns when pressured. We all see so much negitivity when it's all just a learning experiance. A fine fine line if you ask me.

Q



I would agree Quivver but I think HUMANS aren't programmed to be completely honest because we judge and when we judge we classify, categorize and often eliminate--so to expect a sub to overcome human wiring just because they are a sub is a huge hurdle---

quote:

kyra said it well----One thing I tell people about myself, "Do not ask a question unless you are prepared to hear the answer."



Dominants MUST be prepared for the response, must be able to face that technique wasnt as good as planned, or that tie really sucks on you--(with respect of course)--Dominants have to have the balls to ask, subs have to feel safe to respond--it is at the end of the day up to the Dominant what to do with the information---but I feel a Dominant who does not ask to be afraid of being less then perfect---



< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 1/10/2006 5:22:17 AM >

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(in reply to Quivver)
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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 6:24:39 AM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

there are tactful ways , like saying " Master if you want it , as long as you are happy with it i am too. They normally can read between the lines and know you dislike it or are afraid of it.


perhaps i am stuck here, but i do not see that expecting someone to read between the lines, or, as someone else indicated, to never express an opinion, is honest communication. there is a big different between context clues and mind reading.

'if you are happy, then i am pleased because that is what i wish or that makes me happy too' - i can understand that to a point, however, 'if you are happy with it then i am too' - this strikes me as falsehood. in fact, you are not happy with "it" you are happy with the ability to please him even if doing so means doing something you do like like.

how many times can one fudge the truth, shade it grey and still maintain honest and open communication, and still have trust in a relationship?

newflowers

(in reply to sweetpettjenny)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 6:25:05 AM   
EriaeMelody


Posts: 29
Joined: 1/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.

Does this situation sound familiar to others?


Does not sound familiar to me at all. I have yet to meet a Dominant who wanted to be lied to; for any reason. Seeing as how honesty is so important in any relationship, this would seem to doom the relationship from the start.


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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 6:36:44 AM   
cloudboy


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>-Dominants have to have the balls to ask, subs have to feel safe to respond<

Tis true too, that the question often governs the response. Choose wisely, and remember:

"Do you love me?" rarely begets a face to face "No."

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 6:55:18 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.

If someone finds that it's a struggle to be honest, they have no business being in any kind of relationship, vanilla or otherwise.

~stef

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(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 6:59:37 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
>The complexity I am trying to articulate is in part reflected in justheather's comments and in the comments about the struggle with knowing one's free will as a slave. <

If a sub cannot exercise his free will in a relationship, it will leak outside of it. Free will can be cultivated, guided, and steered by a DOM, but it cannot be controlled. Once a DOM thinks/expects that he has control, and once a sub "learns" how to "behave," appearances will begin to govern the relationship. The best safeguard against such appearances it to treat each day as a new one, to be in a LTR as if its just starting again, and to strive to be original and inventive every day.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 7:05:41 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Dominants MUST be prepared for the response, must be able to face that technique wasnt as good as planned, or that tie really sucks on you--(with respect of course)--Dominants have to have the balls to ask, subs have to feel safe to respond--it is at the end of the day up to the Dominant what to do with the information---but I feel a Dominant who does not ask to be afraid of being less then perfect---

I just have a hard time with part of this statement. I have a hard time with the concept that it somehow takes "balls" on the part of the dominant to not only ask for, but expect, the truth from their submissive. I just can't quite fathom a dominant who actually would feel that takes balls. I think I'd probably question whether or not someone was actually dominant if they felt it did take balls to ask for the truth. Personally, I not only expect and insist on the truth... but I tend to get pissed if I don't get the truth. That includes lying to me to supposedly "protect" me or spare my feelings. I'm the dom, its not the job of my slave to protect me and I don't need to be spared anything. I'm the dom, its my job to deal with shit... if I can't deal with it, then maybe I'm not much of a dom. If I'm wearing a tie that looks lousy I expect her to let me know, not let me go out of the house looking like a clown. If the technique I tried didn't go so well, I expect her to tell me, to give me honest feedback so I can learn, adapt and make whatever changes are necessary. It takes balls to step out with a new business venture on your own. Asking for the truth is just a normal part of the relationship... or at least it is with me.


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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 7:28:22 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		If you do not have the capacity for complete, total and open honesty....all of the other wonderful characterists and traits you may possess will not make up for the lack of that one. If I find that I am lied to once, you will not have the opportunity to lie to me twice....even if you were just telling me something that you thought I wanted to hear....or even if your lie was one of omission (which are sometimes the worst IMO).

It is what I expect from others....Dominants, family and friends. I don't give any less in return.

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~erin~

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When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 7:48:02 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

quote:

I prefer, in a relationship, to never take a stand one way or the other. I can't be accused of lying, nor am I telling anyone what they want to hear ... as I am in fact telling them nothing at all.


I have an opinion on this post.


Best response of 2006 ... so far.

(in reply to Sensualips)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 8:15:36 AM   
veronicaofML


Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline 		"Do you love me?" rarely begets a face to face "No."
=======

he he be happy ya aint asking ME then...................

by the gods "I" will flatly tell you to your face...HELL NO....

lovey dovey sucks in MY world...


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(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 1:56:04 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		MHOO314, another way of saying this is that in relationships the sub is smarter than the Dom in about as many cases as it is the other way. I think if we look on this board, we may even come across these cases. For the Dom to dismiss the opinion of someone smarter then he/she is does not strike me as wise. He/she should understand that domination is not related to his false sense of intellectual superiority. It is based on psychological needs which are not always those found by reasoned intellect. The Dom who has to always appear smarter than the sub is playing a game called a house of cards.

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For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to MHOO314)
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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 4:25:11 PM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		I wanted to sway his opinion on cutting his hair..but unlike Deliliah, it's not to rob him of his strength, it's just sexy sexy sexy! Ha! He's still winning the hair argument! Then again, sometimes it's fun Not to win..hehe
Seriously, I do have strong opinions, and it's refreshing to be with someone who respects my right to express them, and who has the ability to match me point for point. So many have lost the fine art of debate. It's become commonplace to try to win a discussion by making personal remarks to/about your opponent. The real talent is in making your point without debasing yourself. Respect for the other party is essential. I respect Master, and even when we have opposing views,I know his opinions have as much value as mine. I often wish the people involved in politics would remember that! As far as D/s views, I would say that I have moved into his camp on more than one occasion.. Sometimes it was simply a matter of considering something from another vantage point. The Hubble telescope doesn't have the disadvantage of the light filtered through the atmosphere when aiming its lens into deep space.I find I have a more panoramic view of D/s when I see things through his eyes instead of filtered through my own experiences alone.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

I do not want an oily, sycophantic slave supporting me when dealing with others, no matter what the medium. My slave who posts on here sometimes, ChainedExistence, is intelligent and opinonated. She lives near me and we debate art, history and politics. I value her opinions and when she rarely falls into the trap of blindly supporting me out of loyalty, I remind her that is not what I want.

In private, I have noticed that I was much more tolerant of her views of D/s when we first met while, now, I tend to steer things my way. There are many ways to say why I do this, but it comes down to something like I know what is best for the relationship and intensity. She may comment on something and I will listen attentively, but she doesn't win these matters often.



< Message edited by ChainedExistence -- 1/10/2006 4:38:42 PM >

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 5:49:50 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline
quote:

Part of the path of discovery for a sub/slave seems to be that point in a relationship (D/s or M/s) where she struggles with what she sees as being honest and with telling her Master/Dominant what He/She wants to hear, to be the kind of sub/slave expected.


I can fall into this with MsN just because sometimes it seems easier.

But MsN has learned to read me pretty well and will usually take me
down the path of discovering what really is going on inside and then find
a way to work through it.

*Brightspot

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(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 9:22:41 PM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		There's a time and a place for everything. I don't like liars or people who live lies. However I don't want or expect my Sub to start an argument or a disagreement over something when we're scene-ing or when we're in public. At those times she should either agree with me or say nothing at all. If she has a problem, then that needs to be handled between US and nobody else. If she disagrees with me then we need to discuss it at the proper time and in the proper place.

< Message edited by OscarHargraves -- 1/10/2006 9:23:48 PM >

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(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/10/2006 9:55:01 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Aye and what if they ask...

"would you like to get me something to drink"

and you've been standing on your feet all day, you're tired and worn out.

Do you say "Yes Master" As that is what a good slave would do

or do you pop out with the truth and say

"my feet hurt, i'm tired, worn out and no i dont want to get you a drink"

(in reply to OscarHargraves)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/11/2006 5:20:16 AM   
fldrkhorse


Posts: 158
Joined: 11/5/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

The dichotomy seems to me to be a false one -- either be honest (and likely disagree, object, quarrel, argue) or comply and obey saying what words He/She wants to hear, presumably burying your honesty.


You raised two different points here. Does a Dom expect you to be honest, forthright, and sincere? Yes. Does a Dom expect you argue, object, and quarrel? No. It is the latter that will cause you problems.

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I'm not where I need to be, but I'm better than I was yesterday.

Namaste, I honor the divine in you

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/11/2006 6:10:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

"my feet hurt, i'm tired, worn out and no i dont want to get you a drink"


Actually in my family and relationships it's an ongoing game we have that whenever someone asks for something we automatically say "No" smile and then go do it. It's a cute ritual we have together. (There, I said ritual, so HA)

If I were asked "You want to get me a drink" I would honestly say "Im really tired so no but will get you one if you want"

If I were told "Go get me a drink please" then I'd go and get him one.

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(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/11/2006 6:24:59 AM   
HoosierScorpio


Posts: 164
Status: offline 		This lifestyle is about honesty and open communication. If you are telling some one what they want to hear then you are not being honest and create an illusion. Some aspic of this lifestyle is based on fantasy the bottom-line is you must be honest and how can you trust. If you can not trust how safe you are with that person for safety is key to the lifestyle. This is my viewpoint H Scorpio

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Being "honest" or telling Dominant what H... - 1/11/2006 8:06:09 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Aye and what if they ask...

"would you like to get me something to drink"

and you've been standing on your feet all day, you're tired and worn out.

Do you say "Yes Master" As that is what a good slave would do

or do you pop out with the truth and say

"my feet hurt, i'm tired, worn out and no i dont want to get you a drink"




I had skipped past page 2 and the begining of 3 ..... had my answer all set in my mind, till I seen RiotGirl's post.

This raises alot of issues really. As far as serving. Let alone being honest in the response. Being honest not only with the one asking, but to ones self. "Would you like to get me a drink?" First off, being asked is something i'm not used to. But then again, i'm not forced each and everytime to do so. I know Master will get up and get his own. Because before I'm asked, he takes the time to see what i'm doing.

But that's on a different note. We're talking honest answers here. "Would I want to?" After being on my feet all day, being tired, worn out. My response.... no, not really. But will. And when I get up or move to do so. He will know out of love and respect for him, i'm willing to forgo my own aches and pains and do as he requested.

To not do something as simple as this. Is the same as "Would you serve me tonight?" No not tonight, I don't feel like it tonight. DO WHAT!?!....... is that something a Master wants to hear coming from the mouth of his sub/slave?

Now granted, a slave isn't going to always be in the "mood". But with an open and honest relationship that has had time to build. A Dom is going to see this. And hopefully take into account that his sub/slave isn't ABLE to get into the scene and try to find out what the problem is.

All this falls back to so many other threads on being open, honest, trusting, TRUE to ones self so that you can be true to others. But to state what I was going to state before running across RiotGirls post.....

If a Dom want to hear only what he wants to hear from me... and not how I really feel, or think of something.... then he really doesn't want a sub/slave. He wants a fucktoy. Nothing more. He wants to play a game only. Doesn't really want to commit to anything really. And not a Dom or Master in this ones opinion. Just someone who likes to have kinky sex.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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