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WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 1:00:41 PM

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http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Shep_Smith_We_do_not_fking_0423.html

.......saw this mentioned on the Colbert show the other night and found a link. i have to say i was rather impressed. Shepard Smith seems to be expressing a viewpoint i have a lot of sympathy for. America has the potential to be the country it was always meant to be. i, personally, am disappointed when it fails to live up to its own lofty expectations.
This Smith fellow struck me as someone wanting to be proud of their country, someone wanting to be the best patriot he can be.......and one who felt his own government was failing to be as patriotic.
Should ones government live up to its own ideals?

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 1:52:13 PM

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I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that in many respects, "American ideals" have been so redefined as to be meaningless in todays political discussion.

And it has little or nothing to do with "torture" or "harsh interrogations".

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 1:57:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that in many respects, "American ideals" have been so redefined as to be meaningless in todays political discussion.

And it has little or nothing to do with "torture" or "harsh interrogations".

Firm

......i agree, let's leave the torture issue to one side. What i am interested in is what patriotism really means. The harsh interrogation issue is a trigger to this mans outburst. What i'm really curious about is, what does 'we are America' really mean?
i'm not so sure though Firm, that we can discount any concept of American ideals so easily. After all, they're the basis for the Constitution and people still refer back to that august document for clarification on a multitude of issues. In another place i tried to link responsible use of cars with responsible use of guns and, in no uncertain terms, was informed that the latter was an utterly different case because it was in the Constitution while the former wasn't.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 2:39:25 PM

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philo,

Notice I said "redefined", not absent.

I'll enter into a discussion with you, as I have a great deal of respect that you are one of the few here who can enter into a cordial discussion, even if we apparently disagree.

However, I'm afraid any reasoned and reasonable discussion will soon be smeared all over the landscape with "neo-con nazi" remarks and vitriol.

Ahh, but here is to hoping ....

I've been reading a book called "The Liberal Mind". Pretty dense stuff, especially if one is a light thinker, without a lot of philosophical and history knowledge.

I'm not prepared to give a review of it, or to declare it as "truth", but it is certainly an interesting read.

My initial point in my last post was that the "American ideals" on which this nation was founded are - at least in the political arena - dead and buried.

Those ideals are pretty much seen as "far right extermist" views nowadays, or as "too libertarian" to be realistic.

The term in our Constitution "promote the general welfare" has been twisted
beyond anything conceived of by the founders, as has been the Federal power over the lives of the citizens, and the States.

I dunno ... I think we are due for an upheaval. Not this week, this month, or even during this Presidency ... but soon, for even if the original American ideals are no longer seriously in play in our political system, they still live on in much of our culture.

And eventually the two will collide, I think.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 2:56:54 PM

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I will discuss things with you as well, because frankly you present opposing views in a way that makes me think and examine my own position.

Politicians should be servants of the people. In the early days of this country they were servants of the land owners (wealth) except for a few who could actually make a difference. Now most are servants of the large corps and special interest groups. An individual can no longer really garner attention, unless they form a large group. Kind of the same thing been going on for a while.

The difference is that in the beginning the land owners often had some of the same foundational ethics and principles as anyone else who lived in the country (in general). Now though the corps have no loyalty to a country, and the only loyalty is to the bottom line. With many of them having global interestes, they do not care much about a country except as a segment of consumers or investors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Shep_Smith_We_do_not_fking_0423.html

.......saw this mentioned on the Colbert show the other night and found a link. i have to say i was rather impressed. Shepard Smith seems to be expressing a viewpoint i have a lot of sympathy for. America has the potential to be the country it was always meant to be. i, personally, am disappointed when it fails to live up to its own lofty expectations.
This Smith fellow struck me as someone wanting to be proud of their country, someone wanting to be the best patriot he can be.......and one who felt his own government was failing to be as patriotic.
Should ones government live up to its own ideals?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:00:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I've been reading a book called "The Liberal Mind". Pretty dense stuff, especially if one is a light thinker, without a lot of philosophical and history knowledge.

Anytime you think you're up to a discussion of the philosophy and history of american liberalism I'm ready to hand you your head. I do find it personally offensive that you are recommending a book whose clearly stated conslusion is that liberals are mentally ill. I really used to like and respect you but this sort of vile garbage makes that mpossible.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 4/24/2009 3:01:13 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:02:53 PM

kdsub

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You have go to stop painting America for the actions of a few individuals.

The true America threw their asses out of office when the truth started coming out...The true America elected a President who they feel will reflect their view of how America should be.

If he fails to uphold the American way …he will be out on his ass... this is the true America.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/24/2009 3:04:05 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:19:48 PM

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(Wish i could make this a reply to both Firm and Orion.....but hope you'll both take the thought for the deed)

Honestly Firm, the term neocon nazi rarely passes my lips......

A friend of mine back in the UK once described the American ideal, as he saw it reflected in the Constitution, as the Cult of the Individual. He (being a Marxist i respected but still took the piss out of) meant it as an insult. Is that the sort of thing you are alluding to when you talk of libertarian?

If so, then it is highly interesting to me that Orion seems to suggest that really it is the Cult of the Special Interest Group, if i may coin a phrase. Those that organise best get the ear of government.

i have to say that i can really appreciate Orions point regarding the change in the nationalistic nature of wealth. Short of apocalypse, there's no turning back from Globalisation.

Which begs the question..........can the American Ideal be both? Both the celebration of individualism that Firm seems to allude to, and the recognition of pragmatic realpolitik that Orion alludes to. Can they be reconciled?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:19:57 PM

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Orion,

Welcome to the discussion. I find you to be another with which a discussion can occur.

I'll directly address your post shortly.

However, it is just the post such as I have quoted below that damage and hinder any reasonable discussion:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I've been reading a book called "The Liberal Mind". Pretty dense stuff, especially if one is a light thinker, without a lot of philosophical and history knowledge.

Anytime you think you're up to a discussion of the philosophy and history of american liberalism I'm ready to hand you your head. I do find it personally offensive that you are recommending a book whose clearly stated conslusion is that liberals are mentally ill. I really used to like and respect you but this sort of vile garbage makes that mpossible.

1. I did not recommend the book, at all. In fact, I was pretty clear that I had no recommendation about it at all, as to it's worth, other than it is generating thoughts. Please read closely, and with an open mind.

2. I've seen many a thread, and posts in which conservatives are pronounced:

a. mentally deficient,
b. criminal, or
c. dupes.

You don't seem to have much of a problem with any of them.

3. Have you read the book yourself, or are you just going by what someone else said?

4. Your "like and respect" is really immaterial to me. You have not earned mine, so I don't really care.

5. Your "hand me my head" is really not conducive to a real discussion, as it a priori assumes both an intellectual and a moral superiority on your part which is not in evidence. Your lack of comprehension of my remarks about the current book I am reading is an excellent case in point.

6. You are trolling, obviously, and this is likely the last time I'll bother to engage you in this thread, without a change in demeanor. I only did this time, due to the possibility that you showed in the "Gaza" thread, that you might be able to engage ... so, consider this an invitation, or a dismissal, your choice.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/24/2009 3:41:48 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:24:02 PM

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Thing is, Kdsub, what precisely is the American Way? Can you define it? Indeed can it be defined?
Shepard Smith clearly felt it had been contravened.......which presupposes it can be defined. i'm just wondering how posters here see it.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:38:47 PM

kdsub

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I hate being corny ...but it is defined in the Constitution. How else can you describe any country except by its laws?

We elect people thinking they will uphold the Constitution and the law… they don’t always do that and abuse our founding principals. The measure of the American people is how the voting generation responds to those abuses.

So far over our history we have responded in the right way …if slowly at times.

Butch

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 3:40:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

(Wish i could make this a reply to both Firm and Orion.....but hope you'll both take the thought for the deed)

Honestly Firm, the term neocon nazi rarely passes my lips......

A friend of mine back in the UK once described the American ideal, as he saw it reflected in the Constitution, as the Cult of the Individual. He (being a Marxist i respected but still took the piss out of) meant it as an insult. Is that the sort of thing you are alluding to when you talk of libertarian?

If so, then it is highly interesting to me that Orion seems to suggest that really it is the Cult of the Special Interest Group, if i may coin a phrase. Those that organise best get the ear of government.

i have to say that i can really appreciate Orions point regarding the change in the nationalistic nature of wealth. Short of apocalypse, there's no turning back from Globalisation.

Which begs the question..........can the American Ideal be both? Both the celebration of individualism that Firm seems to allude to, and the recognition of pragmatic realpolitik that Orion alludes to. Can they be reconciled?

Great post, philo.

I think you are on the mark with your observations.

The American Ideal WAS about 'the Cult of Individualism" (and meant as a compliment)

. The current political system IS about special interests.

Therein lies the rub.

I agree ... I don't see a return to "Individualism" in the American style absent some "really bad shit".

Marxist-based philosophy has changed the ground on which politics are discussed, and even many who might openly disavow Marxist philosophy, accept and use the concepts in their world view.

Just as the Marxist used the concept of "Cult of Individualism" as an insult, and I see it as a compliment, most of the times we talk at cross purposes ("we" being those who seem to favor government intervention for "compassionate" reasons, and those of us who see almost any governmental intervention as a detriment to the sovereignty of the individual).

So, no, I'm not sanguine that there can really be a peaceful resolution between the two.

I don't remember which of the founders said it, but a quote keeps going through my mind about how "the people will continue to accept bad government, because it is what they know. That to change the known for the unknown is difficult, and not a task taken lightly".

I think that is where we are today. Special interest rule both major parties, and are so entrenched in the financial and political environment that there is really no way out of the swamp absent a large number of people coming to the realization that the situation is past intolerable, and deciding that the cost - for the cost will be dear - must be paid to change it.

I was reading an article the other day (I'll see if I can find it again, if you are interested), in which the author discusses his belief that we are actually close to the "Fourth American Republic", with the first being the Constitutional Republic until the Civil War, the second being from the Civil War until the "New Deal", and the last being from the "New Deal" until about now, and that a "Fourth American Republic" is due to break the Special Interest/Political lock on government.

That resonants with me.

Unfortunately, I'm really not looking forward to the transition, although I'd hope the outcome is a return to something approaching the original "American Ideal".

Firm

PS. The "neo-con nazi" wasn't a dig at you, rather at the riff-raff that will likely invade this thread once they see an open and honest discussion about the topics we are discussing.

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:01:49 PM

Crush

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Once upon a time, America was considered a Nation of Laws. There are nations that aren't ... consider a dictatorship...it is a nation based on "whims" of an individual. Or a theocracy, based on the "guidance" of religious leaders, which can change with the change of leadership.

One of the "downsides" of a nation of laws is that it isn't supposed to be a 'whim-based' nation. So laws need to be changed, interpreted, created, removed in some sort of societally-agreeable manner. In the US, supposedly that is our various governmental bodies. It can make it slow to react sometimes...and overreact other times.

And it must be a fairly good system, considering the number of nations that have a similar methodology of government. That we adapted from other systems to fit our needs.

Though lately, I see that the USA stands not for the "United States of America" but more the "United Socialist of America", since many of the founding values aren't as valued as they once were....reliance on self being one example.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:02:36 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

philo,

Notice I said "redefined", not absent.

I'll enter into a discussion with you, as I have a great deal of respect that you are one of the few here who can enter into a cordial discussion, even if we apparently disagree.

However, I'm afraid any reasoned and reasonable discussion will soon be smeared all over the landscape with "neo-con nazi" remarks and vitriol.

Ahh, but here is to hoping ....

I've been reading a book called "The Liberal Mind". Pretty dense stuff, especially if one is a light thinker, without a lot of philosophical and history knowledge.

I'm not prepared to give a review of it, or to declare it as "truth", but it is certainly an interesting read.

My initial point in my last post was that the "American ideals" on which this nation was founded are - at least in the political arena - dead and buried.

Those ideals are pretty much seen as "far right extermist" views nowadays, or as "too libertarian" to be realistic.

The term in our Constitution "promote the general welfare" has been twisted
beyond anything conceived of by the founders, as has been the Federal power over the lives of the citizens, and the States.

I dunno ... I think we are due for an upheaval. Not this week, this month, or even during this Presidency ... but soon, for even if the original American ideals are no longer seriously in play in our political system, they still live on in much of our culture.

And eventually the two will collide, I think.

Firm

Firm every bit of what you have said above is true...BUT... all the changes have been within the guidelines and in accordance with the living document… the Constitution. They fit the reality of today but retain the basic principals of the founders.

I believe…pure opinion… that the founders would be proud that their principals have survived to govern a new age even if different then theirs.

Butch

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:06:23 PM

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Sounds like there is a book to be written, "The American Dream: From Individualism to Corporatism"

i think we can broadly agree that historical drift. i've always seen the original impulse of America to be the idea that individuals ought to be able to do what they want, so long as they don't stop someone else doing what they want. In recent decades, perhaps a century or so, those individuals best able to self actualise ended up consolidating that freedom, that power, around the structures they'd built up. To the point where we now have the apparently nonsensical idea that a corporation has the same rights as an individual.

i'm forced to observe that this could be seen as a failed social experiment.

However, i'm trying very hard not to hijack my own thread......at least until we get to the fifth page or so

i think i now see how Shepard Smith may have got to where he got. Let's assume he sees the American Ideal in the same way as you Firm. A celebration of individualism. The state torturing another individual in order to safeguard the states interests cuts right across that ideal. Forget for a second that the individual in question isn't a US national. It's all about the individual.....not the state designation of that individual.

<laughing here> i started this thread with an oblique reference to Stephen Colbert.....i'm now strongly reminded of the title of his recent book. Perhaps the terms are all wrong....it's not 'we are American', it ought to be 'I am America......and so can you'

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:06:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I hate being corny ...but it is defined in the Constitution. How else can you describe any country except by its laws?

We elect people thinking they will uphold the Constitution and the law… they don’t always do that and abuse our founding principals. The measure of the American people is how the voting generation responds to those abuses.

So far over our history we have responded in the right way …if slowly at times.

Butch

Butch,

I differ.

I think laws can be a window into the nation, but I do not think that they are the definition of a nation. In truth, they are an attempt to quantify the cultural beliefs of the people.

It goes along with the difference between a nation, and the government of a nation. For Americans, this is a particularly difficult distinction, as since it's founding, our government was an extension of the culture of individualism, and of exceptionalism with a "goal" of allowing the maximum personal sovereignty. (yes, yes, women and slaves ... side issues).

The "American nation" isn't an ethnically monolithic group who have an ancient lineage for thousands of years. For the most part, we are "American" because we have accepted certain principles and beliefs, and rules of behavior.

Which are changing, and, I believe, destroying the historical "American nation", and the instrument of that destruction is our own government.

I swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic ... yet I find that very government that I swore to protect is the instrument of the destruction of the very beliefs and philosophies of individualism that I hold dear ...

So, the question in my heart, and in the heart of many Americans like me is ... whence lie our loyalty?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:07:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I've been reading a book called "The Liberal Mind". Pretty dense stuff, especially if one is a light thinker, without a lot of philosophical and history knowledge.

Anytime you think you're up to a discussion of the philosophy and history of american liberalism I'm ready to hand you your head. I do find it personally offensive that you are recommending a book whose clearly stated conslusion is that liberals are mentally ill. I really used to like and respect you but this sort of vile garbage makes that mpossible.

DomKen, but they are mentally ill.
One name; "KENNEDY"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/24/2009 4:11:10 PM >

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(in reply to DomKen)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:11:11 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Shep_Smith_We_do_not_fking_0423.html

.......saw this mentioned on the Colbert show the other night and found a link. i have to say i was rather impressed. Shepard Smith seems to be expressing a viewpoint i have a lot of sympathy for. America has the potential to be the country it was always meant to be. i, personally, am disappointed when it fails to live up to its own lofty expectations.
This Smith fellow struck me as someone wanting to be proud of their country, someone wanting to be the best patriot he can be.......and one who felt his own government was failing to be as patriotic.
Should ones government live up to its own ideals?

Part of the "American Ideal" or the "American Way" is based off of the idea of the Protestant work ethic. If you work hard enough, you can do anything.

I think that a place where the government is failing to live up to this ideal, is in the way they are trying to legislate into being each person's "hapiness" instead of it being the individual's responsibility to do the hard work necessary to attain their "hapiness."

In the Victorian period there was a lot of "American Mythos" that sprang (sprung) up. I think that this has created a disconnect between what the writers of the Constitution intended and the ideal of what America is all about.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:11:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So, the question in my heart, and in the heart of many Americans like me is ... whence lie our loyalty?

Firm

..........now that's a 2500 year old question at least. Sophocles' Antigone covers very similar ground. Should Antigone observe the law of the city, or the laws of her family? Should the city force her to make a choice? Do laws force people to choose to do the wrong thing sometimes? Those ol' Greeks were very much like us when they wrestled with politics and social policy.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/24/2009 4:17:52 PM

kdsub

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Thank heavens we are not locked into any era’s mores. Yes they were for individual self-reliance but were also against women voting and working as an example.

Times change… so does the way people think. If enough people in America think the way you do then times will change again. And the changes will again be within the Constitution.

I guess what I am saying is just because your way of thinking does not match the majority does not make the Constitution outdated… or America anything but exactly what the majority wants it to be.

Butch

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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