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How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/4/2009 9:59:23 PM

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The Power Of Nightmares

The Power of Nightmares, subtitled The Rise of the Politics of Fear, is a BBC documentary film series, written and produced by Adam Curtis. Its three one-hour parts consist mostly of a montage of archive footage with Curtis's narration. The series was first broadcast in the United Kingdom in late 2004 and has subsequently been broadcast in multiple countries and shown in several film festivals, including the 2005 Cannes Film Festival.
The films compare the rise of the Neo-Conservative movement in the United States and the radical Islamist movement, making comparisons on their origins and claiming similarities between the two. More controversially, it argues that the threat of radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organised force of destruction, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is a myth perpetrated by politicians in many countries—and particularly American Neo-Conservatives—in an attempt to unite and inspire their people following the failure of earlier, more utopian ideologies.
The Power of Nightmares has been praised by film critics in both Britain and the United States. Its message and content have also been the subject of various critiques and criticisms from conservatives and progressives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/4/2009 10:41:45 PM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/4/2009 10:26:50 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

How (neo)conservatives Think

Do you not feel the least bit guilty about posting an oxymoronic thread title?

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/4/2009 10:48:47 PM

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FR

...i watched that documentary when it came out. i'd recommend it to everyone, no matter what political persuasion one has. However, i'd point out one aspect of it to you Owner that you may have overlooked. Everyone, the neo-cons, AQ, all of them.......they thought they were acting in the best interests of humanity as they saw it. It is important to acknowledge that fact, because that it a common ground on which a consensus can be built.

i'm not interested in a political dialogue where all we do is poke holes in our opposites positions (although i'm not above poking some holes...er....). i want one where we find a common ground.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 1:06:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
FR

...i watched that documentary when it came out. i'd recommend it to everyone, no matter what political persuasion one has. However, i'd point out one aspect of it to you Owner that you may have overlooked. Everyone, the neo-cons, AQ, all of them.......they thought they were acting in the best interests of humanity as they saw it. It is important to acknowledge that fact, because that it a common ground on which a consensus can be built.

i'm not interested in a political dialogue where all we do is poke holes in our opposites positions (although i'm not above poking some holes...er....). i want one where we find a common ground.

I have seen it and ironically enough, Islam and the neo-cons both seek peace through world domination.

Neo-cons seek a new world political/economy order, religion for them truly at that point being a controlling 'opiate for the masses.' For Islam religion already is just that and desire a new world religious order...taking man back centuries, living off the land.

Both apparently will employ all means necessary in making the attempt.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 4:52:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

...i watched that documentary when it came out. i'd recommend it to everyone, no matter what political persuasion one has. However, i'd point out one aspect of it to you Owner that you may have overlooked. Everyone, the neo-cons, AQ, all of them.......they thought they were acting in the best interests of humanity as they saw it. It is important to acknowledge that fact, because that it a common ground on which a consensus can be built.

i'm not interested in a political dialogue where all we do is poke holes in our opposites positions (although i'm not above poking some holes...er....). i want one where we find a common ground.

Excellent post, philo.

Your comments point to why I find discussions with you interesting and worthwhile.

This attitude makes you an honest and thoughtful person who operates from ideals and principles, and not an ideologue operating from hatred and narrow-mindedness.

Even if some of your ideals and principles are wrong.

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 5:27:07 AM

Crush

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/RANT ON
Conservatives want to dominate you through their views. Liberals want to dominate you through their views. Difference? Color of the lenses in their glasses. But make no mistake, both sides think they are right. And both sides are biased and prejudiced, at the same time! Both side use name calling, biased data, distractors, ad hominem attacks, logical fallicies and leaps of "faith" in logic and reasoning among other non sequitors and logical fallacy tactics.

It is just a matter of which bully you want pushing you around.

Both groups are against individuals being truly being free to pursue life, liberty and happiness

One group wants the "high moral ground." (which one? Both.) Another group wants you to be responsible for everyone else. (which one? Both again) One group wants you to "be responsible stewards" of some asset or other, be it capital or grass. It is an attempt to make a person conform to the ideals of a given ideology.

Neither is truly in favor of individuals making their own choices. For example: "Conservatives" think gay marriage is wrong. "Liberals" think gay marriage is right. And a lot for a lot of us, we just don't f'n care who gets your rocks off, so to speak.

Drinking? Gun ownership? Dancing? Gambling? Pot? International affairs (feared or liked?) The list goes on. It always comes back to wanting to control the actions of others beyond a simple set of agreed upon rules for maintaining a civil playing field. (Common and personal defense. Individual rights to self determination. And a civility of mutual respect.)

/RANT OFF

NB: It is also because some people just like to be argumentative instead of actually "debative." Is that a pig I hear singing???

< Message edited by Crush -- 5/5/2009 5:28:33 AM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:00:17 AM

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"The world is not divided between good and evil, but the Neo-Conservatives wanted to create moral certainty." The BBC documentary is fascinating stuff, Owner, I just saw the first tiers of it. It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America. Thank you: it corroborates much of what I've concluded already.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:26:12 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America.

Isn't torture still illegal in America, or are you claiming they are all terrorist?

Kim

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:43:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America.

Isn't torture still illegal in America, or are you claiming they are all terrorist?

Kim

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Some people are just idiots.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:44:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The world is not divided between good and evil, but the Neo-Conservatives wanted to create moral certainty."

The world is not divided between good and evil?!

Care to elaborate on this thought?

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:46:19 AM

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Not today, not with you, thank you :-) .

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:47:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America.

Isn't torture still illegal in America, or are you claiming they are all terrorist?

Depends what you define as torture, doesn't it

.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 6:58:03 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America.

Isn't torture still illegal in America, or are you claiming they are all terrorist?

Depends what you define as torture, doesn't it .

No. It has to do with thier liberty to choose, and my responsability as a parent to inform; not your opinion as another citizen.

Some of the points may be valid, I didn't get very far before I became irritated by the backwardsness and onesidedness of it.

I would rather just be upfront and explain neither 'side' is concerned about their welfare.

Kim

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:00:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Not today, not with you, thank you :-) .

As I thought.

After all, the indefensible is rather difficult to defend.

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:01:14 AM

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You're right. It's so much better to keep students ignorant and to raise them in this fluff of flags and baseball.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:03:21 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You're right. It's so much better to keep students ignorant and to raise them in this fluff of flags and baseball.

No, Kitten, but I don't want to stuff them full of bs either. Subject your own to it if you want, leave mine out of it.

Thanks.

Kim

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Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:07:50 AM

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I shall try to ignore the obvious derail on education (you're concentrating on one little off-hand comment in order to avoid the subject of the thread, and it's frankly quite tedious).

The film - it really is illuminating, though I suspect I understand how disturbing it must be to have one's ideology revealed for what it is: the result of the manipulations of a cunning bunch of power-hungry men.

"In the early ‘70s, Irving Kristol became the focus of a group of disaffected intellectuals in Washington. They were determined to understand why the optimistic liberal policies had failed. And they found the answer in the theories of Leo Strauss. Strauss explained that it was the very basis of the liberal idea—the belief in individual freedom—that was causing the chaos, because it undermined the shared moral framework that held society together. Individuals pursued their own selfish interests, and this inevitably led to conflict. As the movement grew, many young students who had studied Strauss’ ideas came to Washington to join this group. Some, like Paul Wolfowitz, had been taught Strauss’ ideas at the University of Chicago, as had Francis Fukuyama. And others, like Irving Kristol’s son William, had studied Strauss’ theories at Harvard. This group became known as the neoconservatives.

The neoconservatives were idealists. Their aim was to try and stop the social disintegration they believed liberal freedoms had unleashed. They wanted to find a way of uniting the people, by giving them a shared purpose. One of their great influences in doing this would be the theories of Leo Strauss. They would set out to recreate the myth of America as a unique nation whose destiny was to battle against evil in the world. And in this project, the source of evil would be America’s Cold War enemy: the Soviet Union. And by doing this, they believed that they would not only give new meaning and purpose to people’s lives, but they would spread the good of democracy around the world."

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:15:03 AM

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"The Straussians started to create a worldview which is a fiction. The world is not divided into good and evil. The battle in which we are engaged is not a battle between good and evil. The United States, as anyone who observes understands, has done some good and some bad things. It’s like any great power. This is the way history is. But they wanted to create a world of moral certainties, so therefore they invent mythologies—fairytales—describing any force in the world that obstructs the United States as somehow Satanic, or associated with evil." Holmes.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:56:50 AM

cpK69

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Man that hurt!! … 24:22 min of owie…

Here is why I say not everyone should, or needs to watch that. Some of us are capable of figuring out what is going on, without all of the factual ‘mopar’. Furthermore, what is more concerning to me; after I showed them that, I would then have to turn around and show them the facts about the other side(s). (more pain)

I prefer to focus on where we are going and how to get there, than the constant finger pointing involved with focusing on how we got here.

When you get right down to it, it is all on ‘the people’.

The film uses visuals and music playing in the background to distraction; it’s purpose is to cause emotional reactions. I refuse to play.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/5/2009 7:57:20 AM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 7:57:12 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The world is not divided between good and evil, but the Neo-Conservatives wanted to create moral certainty." The BBC documentary is fascinating stuff, Owner, I just saw the first tiers of it. It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America. Thank you: it corroborates much of what I've concluded already.

Yes, because our children don't get enough liberal...excuse me, progressive...indoctrination with the allowance of books such as "My Two Mommies" in the elementary schools while any serious books taking a stance against homosexuality are banned or with the celebration of Earth Day or with the viewings of Michael Moore's ""Fahrenheit 9/11 or Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth", both criticized for their distortion and omission of relevant facts.

The schools are supposed to be "public" schools...that means they are paid for by alllllllllllllllllll tax-paying citizens, including conservatives. I'd be willing to bet that were you to track the money, the majority of taxes paid for public education comes from conservative wallets/purses rather than from liberal wallets/purses and yet the public schools have become a haven, thanks to the NEA, for leftist ideologies rather than teaching those subjects that truly matter...arithmetic, grammar, English, science (the kind that is worthwhile such as chemistry and biology, not "save the earth" science). Since the schools are paid for by all citizens, shouldn't their agendas reflect that instead of either all right-wing or all left-wing stances?

What good does it do to being forth lines from the movie, kittin when there are many of us who see the film in the same way as the two mentioned above...a distortion of facts with telling omissions by a liberal commentator? The fact that his film fits yours...and many leftist's views...perfectly doesn't make it right anymore than a film from the right depicting the left only as "nannyists with no interest in war but only a free and safe world" would be.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 5/5/2009 8:02:39 AM >

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