Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture"

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Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolut... - 5/22/2009 7:11:23 PM

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Man Cow,right wing radio talk show host and Foxnews regular,begrudgingly admits it was torture.

"Absolutely torture".

He later says that he would admit to anything,if water-boarded.

Sean Hannity..... Next!

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/22/2009 7:14:15 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 7:16:50 PM

Crush

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Actually, he is a Libertarian, as any cursory google would show. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancow_Muller#Personal_life

Unless, of course, you are dumping Libertarians into the same mix as the "Right Wing" .... and then you really need to do more research....

Edited to add link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian

< Message edited by Crush -- 5/22/2009 7:21:19 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 7:22:29 PM

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I`ve heard his shtick,seen his little ditties on Fox & Friends,....

He`s a right winger.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 7:52:21 PM

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Basic rule of thumb there; any position that doesn't line up with the daily talking points is right-wing, neocon.

And of course it's torture, and a highly effective form that goes directly to the panic center. That's why we use it.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:09:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
And of course it's torture, and a highly effective form that goes directly to the panic center. That's why we use it.

"Highly effective"? Wrong as usual:

quote:

As you probably know, a subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary is holding the first public congressional hearing on the Bush Administration’s detention and interrogation program since the release of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel’s (OLC) memos authorizing torture.

One of the leading witnesses is Ali Soufan, one of the FBI's top interrogator and the man who -- by using standard (i.e., non-torture) techniques -- was able to get crucial information from Abu Zubaydah which led to the capture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Jose Padilla. You might recall that Soufan recently went public with his experience on the torture revelations (see here and here).

Talking Points Memo has this nugget from Soufan's testimony:
quote:

This is fascinating...

Sheldon Whitehouse is leading Ali Soufan through questioning. What Soufan is saying is that when he used lawful interrogation techniques against Zubaydah, he got actionable intelligence within an hour, including the identification of Khalid Sheik Mohamed as the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

However, when a contractor came in and began using harsher techniques, Zubaydah clammed up. It became clear that Zubaydah had received training on how to resist torture.
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Mark%20Nickolas/blog/&blogId=7202

and

quote:

FBI Agent Ali Soufan's congressional testimony on the seminal issues involving traditional interrogation versus torture. Here's Soufan explaining how and why traditional interrogation techniques work very well:
quote:

The Informed Interrogation Approach is based on leveraging our knowledge of the detainee’s culture and mindset, together with using information we already know about him.

And here's why torture does not:
quote:

The harsh technique method doesn’t use the knowledge we have of the detainee’s history, mindset, vulnerabilities, or culture, and instead tries to subjugate the detainee into submission through humiliation and cruelty. The approach applies a force continuum, each time using harsher and harsher techniques until the detainee submits.

And despite the full-court press by Bush-Cheney sympathizers, Soufan adds that their oft-repeated talking point about how waterboarding allowed us to gain actionable intelligence which saved lives is complete bullshit:
quote:

Many of the claims made in the memos about the success of the enhanced techniques are inaccurate. For example, it is untrue to claim Abu Zubaydah wasn’t cooperating before August 1, 2002. The truth is that we got actionable intelligence from him in the first hour of interrogating him.
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Mark%20Nickolas/blog/&blogId=7203

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:12:46 PM

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for the first time ever I have to agree with O59. Libertarianism is definitely right wing as the term is traditionally defined...in fact it is far right wing, closer to facism than it is to even modern day "conservatism".

I dont know why MM should be surprised that he couldnt take it..thats the point. That doesnt make it torture.

Morever, Muller is just a bad Howard Stern rip off.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:21:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

"Highly effective"? Wrong as usual:

Lets have Blowboy release the memos and we'll see whether it was effective or not. Those quotes from Soufan only say that SOME intelligence was received in the first hour. It does not preclude waterboarding having gotten MORE intelligence that could not have been achieved with less harsh techniques. If fact he even says that that using progressively harsher techniques eventually get the subject to "submit".

Doesnt sound like it makes claims of effectiveness "complete bullshit"...unless your ears are already plugged with it and that filters everything you hear.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:23:36 PM

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Well that's a lovely bit of snipping, Cagey, but it completely misses the point (as usual). As forms of torture go, waterboarding is a highly effective one.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:27:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Blowboy

Didn't we have enough of this bullshit in the last eight years, Crue? I realize that the Dems lowered to bar to revolting levels. Must the Right automatically behave in the same classless manner?

The man is the President of the United States. The Office deserves a bit of respect, whether you like him or not.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:35:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Blowboy

Didn't we have enough of this bullshit in the last eight years, Crue? I realize that the Dems lowered to bar to revolting levels. Must the Right automatically behave in the same classless manner?

The man is the President of the United States. The Office deserves a bit of respect, whether you like him or not.

We've had that discussion already. An office does not deserve repect, only the person filling it, and BHO has done nothing in his life that in any way deserves respect (other than running an effective campaign that he still would have lost if the media had bothered to puruse John Edwards' affair during the primaries).

Language is no less an appropriate ground for satire than cartoons are for political humor, and Blowboy is appropriate on many levels.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:42:44 PM

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quote:

Libertarianism is definitely right wing as the term is traditionally defined...in fact it is far right wing, closer to facism than it is to even modern day "conservatism".

WHAT?

Facism is authortarian. Libertarianism is an anti-authortarian. The two could not possibly be farther apart.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 5/22/2009 8:43:43 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:45:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well that's a lovely bit of snipping, Cagey, but it completely misses the point (as usual). As forms of torture go, waterboarding is a highly effective one.

Actually the citations completely disprove your point.

But keeping repeating LA LA LA LA to yourself, it's obvious you still believe it (as usual).

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:45:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Language is no less an appropriate ground for satire than cartoons are for political humor, and Blowboy is appropriate on many levels.

Freedom of speech is a rare and precious thing, Crue. Use it as you will. Understand though, that others will judge you by it, and your arguments accordingly. I have little use for the hatemongers of any political persuasion.

Personally, I prefer O.B.A.M.A. (one big ass mistake, America), if we are going to explore the satirical and humorous possibilities, but it isn't the form of address I will use in public forums.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:50:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well that's a lovely bit of snipping, Cagey, but it completely misses the point (as usual). As forms of torture go, waterboarding is a highly effective one.

Actually the citations completely disprove your point.

But keeping repeating LA LA LA LA to yourself, it's obvious you still believe it (as usual).

Actually the citations amount to one 'expert' opinion, on a highly volatile subject, in a politically charged climate. In other words, they don't amount to shit.

It also address's the tangential aspect of whether torture is an effective way to get actionable intelligence, rather than the question of whether it is an effective way to torture someone.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 8:54:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Libertarianism is definitely right wing as the term is traditionally defined...in fact it is far right wing, closer to facism than it is to even modern day "conservatism".

WHAT?

Facism is authortarian. Libertarianism is an anti-authortarian. The two could not possibly be farther apart.

Not in the classical sense of the words:

"On the right wing vs left wing diagrams above, socialism and libertarianism fall outside the realm of democracy. Whereas modern liberalism and American conservatism are best seen as heuristics (decision-making shortcuts), socialism and libertarianism are ideologies which invariably lead to tyranny."

[Mod Note: image removed]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 5/22/2009 9:11:33 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 9:05:29 PM

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Whoever designed that one dimesional axis is an idiot. Look up "political compass." It's not perfect but it is far more accurate than the classical (old) single axis spectrum. I fail to see how a ideology that says it is perfectly okay to arrest people in the middle of the night without a warrant and exacute them without a trial (facism) has much in common with a ideology that deplores any kind of government interference at all (libertarianism).

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 9:09:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

As forms of torture go, waterboarding is a highly effective one.

Effective in what sense?

One of the torturees (I believe Ali Soufan) steadfastly denied any link between Al-Qaeda and Saddam, He was waterboarded, and promptly stated that there was a link. In other words, he gave correct info until tortured and then gavce any information he was told to give.

This is barbaric - torturing people until they give the answers you want, and be damned whether it's true or not.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 9:25:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Effective in what sense?

        It doesn't run up the electric bill, splatter fluids that stain the curtains, or cause permanent physical harm. You can apply it as often as you like. Try ripping out someones fingernails 80 times in a month.

      Watch the video in the link. It took about five seconds to break the dj. It produces an immediate, uncontrollable response.

       Is torture an effective way to hear what you want to know, or just a way to get someone to say whatever they think you want to hear? Different question.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/22/2009 9:26:40 PM >

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 9:27:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Whoever designed that one dimesional axis is an idiot. Look up "political compass." It's not perfect but it is far more accurate than the classical (old) single axis spectrum. I fail to see how a ideology that says it is perfectly okay to arrest people in the middle of the night without a warrant and exacute them without a trial (facism) has much in common with a ideology that deplores any kind of government interference at all (libertarianism).

You of all people should know that disagreement doesnt make someone an idiot.

You are talking about the ideal of libertarianism, while the above addresses the ultimate consequences of libertarianism. Complete freedom from any kind of government interference is the ideal. However, what happens to a society as that "complete freedom" evolves? Since there is no means of tempering the effects of freedom (ie no way to enforce any sort of equality) power begins to accumulate in fewer and fewer hands..survival of the fittest taken to the extreme. Eventually that power evolves into tyranny of the few over the many, and since it has approached it from the left, moves towards Facism/monarchy.

As you move from right to left across the spectrum again power becomes concentrated in fewer and fewer hands...those who set the rules of "Equality" and have the power to make themselves "more equal" and the evolution is toward totalitarianism.

If you want to bend the line into a circle (thereby losing "left and right" directions) Facism/monarchy and totalitarianism wind up next to each other, which is why they ultimately are used (incorrectly) interchangeably.

Political compass is dual axis schema that again loses the traditional distinctions between left and right (based on French parliament seating).

< Message edited by CruelNUnsual -- 5/22/2009 9:37:41 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 9:50:07 PM

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quote:

You of all people should know that disagreement doesnt make someone an idiot.

I’m not calling him an idiot for disagreeing with me. I’m calling him an idiot for placing libertarianism next to fascism.

quote:

You are talking about the ideal of libertarianism,

Exactly. The idea of libertarianism (despite its consequences) is anti-authoritarian - the exact opposite of the very authoritarian fascism.

quote:

while the above addresses the ultimate consequences of libertarianism. Complete freedom from any kind of government interference is the ideal. However, what happens to a society as that "complete freedom" evolves? Since there is no means of tempering the effects of freedom (ie no way to enforce any sort of equality) power begins to accumulate in fewer and fewer hands..survival of the fittest taken to the extreme. Eventually that power evolves into tyranny of the few over the many, and since it has approached it from the left, moves towards Facism/monarchy.

Agreed. Which is why, despite what some people around here may think - I am not a libertarian.

quote:

As you move from right to left across the spectrum again power becomes concentrated in fewer and fewer hands...those who set the rules of "Equality" and have the power to make themselves "more equal" and the evolution is toward totalitarianism.

If you want to bend the line into a circle (thereby losing "left and right" directions) Facism/monarchy and totalitarianism wind up next to each other, which is why they ultimately are used (incorrectly) interchangeably.

Political compass is dual axis schema that again loses the traditional distinctions between left and right (based on French parliament seating).

Loosing the “traditional distinctions” is exactly what we should do. The traditional single axis is outmoded. Fascism has more in common with communism (both are authoritarian) than it does with libertarianism.

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