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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:04:44 AM   
Kybele


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Excellent response.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:06:32 AM   
beargonewild


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Status: offline 		Well said Arpig. It also means that a straight man has the right to marry another straight man if they so choose.

eta: the whole problem rises from the state and religion sticking their noses into the bedrooms of consenting adults. When the church and state stays the hell out of our bedroom, then this debate over gay marriage rights will be null and void.


< Message edited by beargonewild -- 5/29/2009 10:09:46 AM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:24:13 AM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		i disagree with the edit... a main point is that gays want the same state given rights as hetero marriages... seems like the state is involved whether they want to be or not.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:30:24 AM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

opposing gay marriage does not necessarily make you a bigot though... it may mean that you have a different idea about marriage, but don't have anything against gays.  that does not make you a bigot.  thinking that marriage is between man and a woman does not mean that you think you are better than gay people in all cases... it just means you have a different definition of marriage.


This exactly.

It takes some digging but it's explained Bibically why homosexuality is a sin; and it's not just because God thinks it's icky.

There ARE a lot of bigoted homophobes that use the Bible to support their bigotry (Fred Phelps for example). I have quite a few gay friends who understand I'm a Christian and oppose homosexuality on that belief and understand why that doesn't make me bigoted...and appreciate my wanting to compromise to allow them equal freedom on the matter. (Again, making marriage an institution that government has nothing to do with; and rewriting the benefits formerly given by marriage to not require it would be fair to everyone and giving everyone maximum freedom without stepping on any toes.

But yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe there are things I do that are sin. And I'm thankful that God is loving and *forgives sin*...and thus someone's sexual orientation has nothing to do with how I treat them, my capacity to love them as human beings, be friends with them...you get the picture.

Too many times people want to throw the word "bigot" out there for no other reason than it's an emotionally charged word meant to villify those that disagree with you; making you equally bigoted as those you try and paint with the word. Save the word for those that it really applies to, such as the Fred Phelps cult. (BTW...living near their church as I do...I have a sign I'm putting together so I can stand with them in protest...so picture all the Phelps people standing with their hate signs, and me standing in the middle with a sign saying "I'm surrounded by morons." hehe).

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:42:47 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

This exactly.

It takes some digging but it's explained Bibically why homosexuality is a sin; and it's not just because God thinks it's icky.

There ARE a lot of bigoted homophobes that use the Bible to support their bigotry (Fred Phelps for example). I have quite a few gay friends who understand I'm a Christian and oppose homosexuality on that belief and understand why that doesn't make me bigoted...and appreciate my wanting to compromise to allow them equal freedom on the matter. (Again, making marriage an institution that government has nothing to do with; and rewriting the benefits formerly given by marriage to not require it would be fair to everyone and giving everyone maximum freedom without stepping on any toes.

But yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe there are things I do that are sin. And I'm thankful that God is loving and *forgives sin*...and thus someone's sexual orientation has nothing to do with how I treat them, my capacity to love them as human beings, be friends with them...you get the picture.

Too many times people want to throw the word "bigot" out there for no other reason than it's an emotionally charged word meant to villify those that disagree with you; making you equally bigoted as those you try and paint with the word. Save the word for those that it really applies to, such as the Fred Phelps cult. (BTW...living near their church as I do...I have a sign I'm putting together so I can stand with them in protest...so picture all the Phelps people standing with their hate signs, and me standing in the middle with a sign saying "I'm surrounded by morons." hehe).

I didn't realize superstition-based bigotry (as opposed to the 'plain ole' kind) was excusable. "Because my deity told me so!" is not an excuse for discrimination in any coherent universe.


Maybe it takes replacing three certain words and rewinding back a few decades to get the point across. What you two are arguing is:

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

opposing interracial marriage does not necessarily make you a bigot though... it may mean that you have a different idea about marriage, but don't have anything against blacks.  that does not make you a bigot.  thinking that marriage is between white man and a white woman does not mean that you think you are better than black people in all cases... it just means you have a different definition of marriage.

(Note: the above is an edited quote from the original poster intended to convey a point)

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/29/2009 10:50:14 AM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:45:06 AM   
NihilusZero


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< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/29/2009 10:46:02 AM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 10:47:16 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness


quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

opposing gay marriage does not necessarily make you a bigot though... it may mean that you have a different idea about marriage, but don't have anything against gays.  that does not make you a bigot.  thinking that marriage is between man and a woman does not mean that you think you are better than gay people in all cases... it just means you have a different definition of marriage.


This exactly.

It takes some digging but it's explained Bibically why homosexuality is a sin; and it's not just because God thinks it's icky.

There ARE a lot of bigoted homophobes that use the Bible to support their bigotry (Fred Phelps for example). I have quite a few gay friends who understand I'm a Christian and oppose homosexuality on that belief and understand why that doesn't make me bigoted...and appreciate my wanting to compromise to allow them equal freedom on the matter. (Again, making marriage an institution that government has nothing to do with; and rewriting the benefits formerly given by marriage to not require it would be fair to everyone and giving everyone maximum freedom without stepping on any toes.

But yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe there are things I do that are sin. And I'm thankful that God is loving and *forgives sin*...and thus someone's sexual orientation has nothing to do with how I treat them, my capacity to love them as human beings, be friends with them...you get the picture.

Too many times people want to throw the word "bigot" out there for no other reason than it's an emotionally charged word meant to villify those that disagree with you; making you equally bigoted as those you try and paint with the word. Save the word for those that it really applies to, such as the Fred Phelps cult. (BTW...living near their church as I do...I have a sign I'm putting together so I can stand with them in protest...so picture all the Phelps people standing with their hate signs, and me standing in the middle with a sign saying "I'm surrounded by morons." hehe).


I don't know why I find myself so amazed at the downright, narrowminded, assinine, ignorance of the above. But I do.


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 11:16:10 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That's funny, I thought her position was that they were all bigots and should change their views, but maybe I read it wrong.


I never read a post in which she said that Christians (or anyone else) should change their view. I may have missed it though but it wasn't in the quote of her which you provided and there are just too many pages to have to scroll through looking for that particular statement. I'm pretty sure she just doesn't want a religious belief system to dictate the law of the land. I'll leave that up to her to defend or disput though. She may very well want everyone to change their view but that's not realistic. Of course, she does have the word 'dream' in her sn, so who knows?

Look at it this way .. if it's okay to use some Christian bible to make 'one' law, is it okay to use another religious text to make another law? What if Sharia's law had been approved by a Prop 8 like bill. Is that okay because if Prop 8 holds, a door has been opened to allow just such a thing to happen.

Religions shouldn't be making laws period. At least in my opinion.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 11:27:53 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Religions shouldn't be making laws period. At least in my opinion.


I would say that religious dogma has no place in the governance of the free and sovereign people of the US. They can make laws pertaining to their collective assemblies if they desire. I have no problem with that as long as there is no attempt to make me adhere to it or any attempt to disenfranchise me or violate my civil liberties because of it.

I'm not going to highjack this thread with my opinions on what other countries should be doing.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 11:31:47 AM   
yourdarkdesire


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Status: offline 		Well - I keep trying to stay awy from this train-wreck - but for some reason I can't. The problem I'm having keeps popping up and deals with CHRISTIANS opposing homosexuality. Why this intent on only the christian population of the world? What about the Jews? What about the Muslims? What about the Hindus and the Buddists? You can't keep pointing the finger at the Christian community and making blanket statements. If you could, then I would be able to say that all Male, Catholic Priests are Homosexual Pedophiles! Why not try talking about "Modern Society"?

And as for this sanctity of marriage crap. (Note that I'm married and believe in the sanctity of my marriage). People are forgetting that back in the Victorian era it was common for a married man to have a Mistress. They were just more honest about things back then. The sanctity - IMHO - deals more with the role of the wife in her role as caregiver of the next generation. Men can screw around - women can't.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 11:37:01 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

I have quite a few gay friends who understand I'm a Christian and oppose homosexuality on that belief and understand why that doesn't make me bigoted...and appreciate my wanting to compromise to allow them equal freedom on the matter.


Dude! OMG! Yours is the very idea that we are fighting against! It's not up to you to allow anything! We don't need your permission! We don't need to be 'allowed' equality. We have the right to it, just like you!

Truly, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 11:50:15 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourdarkdesire

The problem I'm having keeps popping up and deals with CHRISTIANS opposing homosexuality. Why this intent on only the christian population of the world? What about the Jews? What about the Muslims? What about the Hindus and the Buddists? You can't keep pointing the finger at the Christian community and making blanket statements. If you could, then I would be able to say that all Male, Catholic Priests are Homosexual Pedophiles! Why not try talking about "Modern Society"?


Because the Muslim, Hindu and Buddists communities do not have a large presence in Calforina and the Jewish population is a bit over 60 percent in favor of same sex marriage. Christian church groups carried the responsibility for the lion's share of the passage of Prop 8.

edited to fix quoting

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 12:29:43 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

dcnovice, you owned that one, bravo!

The majority should NEVER be allowed to oppress the minority. When that happens, it's time to fight for what's right, fight against oppression, fight for freedom!
But the minority should be allowed to oppress the majority?

I have gay friends and gay relatives.  If they wish to be married, I think they should be able to be married.  But in order to do so, they are going to have to convince a majority of the people that it is something that should be legal.  We live in a constitutional republic with some democratic principals.  We do not live in a society where everyone has the right to anything they want, though they have the right to fight for what they want to become law.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 12:52:33 PM   
nelly33


Posts: 96
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Status: offline 		Nihius, I see the point you are trying to make with the comparison to interracial marriage, and it's a good one, and one that i actually wrestled with when making my viewpoint.  i don't think it is exactly interchangeable though, although i seem to be having some trouble articulating why...
in my head it is very clear, but on paper, i guess part of it has to do with the fact that the color of your skin doesn't affect anything but your outward appearance, while being gay is just the opposite, if that makes sense.
I must take offense at the calling religion superstitios though... even though i myself am not a religious man, to make light of a persons most deeply held beliefs is fairly ignorant in itself.
And to LaTigresse... maybe this is me being narrowminded again... but what part of my arguement is narrow minded?  at least i make an arguement without resorting to just calling names and insults.

(ps, if anybody wants to show me how to quote people in the board... i have no idea how, so please help lol)

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:14:36 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:22:35 PM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I didn't realize superstition-based bigotry (as opposed to the 'plain ole' kind) was excusable. "Because my deity told me so!" is not an excuse for discrimination in any coherent universe.


Maybe you could learn to read and see that a) There's nothing bigoted about my stance, and b) My stance includes absolutely zero discrimination and equal rights for anyone. You really need to get over your own bigotry and open your mind a little.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:24:30 PM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

I have quite a few gay friends who understand I'm a Christian and oppose homosexuality on that belief and understand why that doesn't make me bigoted...and appreciate my wanting to compromise to allow them equal freedom on the matter.


Dude! OMG! Yours is the very idea that we are fighting against! It's not up to you to allow anything! We don't need your permission! We don't need to be 'allowed' equality. We have the right to it, just like you!

Truly, there are none so blind as those who will not see.



Way to go for railing against a strawman. :p I never claimed that you needed my permission.

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the different definitions of "allow"...one of which means to "acknowledge."

< Message edited by Truthiness -- 5/29/2009 1:27:08 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:27:06 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
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Status: offline 		snip from FatDomDaddy- Page 3:
Being I am fully supportive of Civil Unions, the communities demanding the word "marriage"  do
a major disservice by not embracing legal Civil Unions between two people, equal in every way to
marriages between a man and a woman.. There is no doubt  in my mind, that laws and constitutional
amendments protecting marriage between a man and a woman AND at the same time granting same sex
(or between a man and a woman if they so choose) Civil Unions, would be overwhelmingly supported 
by the American People.
_______________________________________________________________

In the OP's case, I suspect she needs the word marriage vs Civil Union just to piss off the Christians. I mean no disrespect to anyone else who shares her support of gay marriage. It is her words and thoughts, and only hers, that offend me.

I'm a Christain, and  an evangelical one at that. I don't give a rat's ass if gay marriage passes or doesn't pass. Personally, I would vote against it, but I sure as hell wouldn't have my knickers in a wad if it passed, nor would I lose sleep.

I happen to live in a state where  gay marriage is legal. I am attending a lesbian friends wedding in November. I have many gay friends, some who support gay marriage, some who do not. The ones who do not support it, do so for religious reasons.  <OMG!!!!! A gay person who subscribes to fundimental Judeo-Christian values and attends church, who woulda thunkit?>
I don't know what world the OP belongs to, but many gays actually attend church and call themselves " Christians ". In my world they are Christians, they have their own relationship with God that is none of my business. Will they be held at gunpoint and have their heads blown off with we other Christians ?

I know lunatic fringe Christians. And you know what ? The OP is the fuel that ignites their fire.  Someone like Beargonewild, could sit and debate/discuss and win a few over to her side. I have seen that too, in my own extended family.

I have only gotten this far in the thread and won't go any further in reading this crap. The OP has already insulted Christians, Blacks and Latinos, and the President. Who, even tho I am not a fan of, is entitled to his own beliefs, based on whatever he bases them on, presumably his Christian values. 

Here's my advice to the OP:
Change your name to Nero, rent a stadium and toss all we Christian, Blacks and Latinos into the lion pit to be mauled to death while you and your ilk drink and make merry in the stands < altho, I don't think their are any of your ilk > You might want to toss the Jews and Muslims in too, cuz their religion is not in favor of gay. marriage. Your maniacal post leaves no room for intelligent discussion.

                        mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 5/29/2009 1:37:47 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:30:08 PM   
rfd1


Posts: 53
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Status: offline 		Proposition 8 was voted for by the African-American and Latino, and to a lesser degree Asian, voters. White voters supported gay marriage.
I think this is one of those unintended consequences of demographic change. Heck even the DALAI LAMA is against gay marriage, and he is the divine sweetheart of progressives.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:33:49 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

There's nothing bigoted about my stance,


Like I said.. none so blind.

quote:

and b) My stance includes absolutely zero discrimination and equal rights for anyone.


It only calls for equal rights which you 'allow'. Big difference. That might not be your stance. I don't know. But it is what you wrote. Own your words or not, that's up to you.

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