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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 4:09:32 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yup. If "love it or leave it" is the rule, then there's no reason for the Bill of Rights.

Disagreement and speaking up is literally Constitutionally protected.

Anyone who doesn't like THAT can leave.





I believe KTMs comment re love it or leave it is what you can do if activism still fails to convince the majority. At that point you have to weigh the benefits and shortfalls of the US and leave if the balance is in that direction.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 4:19:17 PM   
KyttynTheMynx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yup. If "love it or leave it" is the rule, then there's no reason for the Bill of Rights.

Disagreement and speaking up is literally Constitutionally protected.

Anyone who doesn't like THAT can leave.





I believe KTMs comment re love it or leave it is what you can do if activism still fails to convince the majority. At that point you have to weigh the benefits and shortfalls of the US and leave if the balance is in that direction.


What CNU said.  Thank you.


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(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 4:20:38 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

That maybe so yet these innocent people do have free will thus they chose to follow an organized religion. How can you honestly fight for equal rights for gays when you turn around and blast another for following Christianity or Judaism or any other organized religion?



I blast them for trying to force the rest of us to live under their tyranny. Gays don't try to make others gay. Religion, however, is being forced on us with these gay marriage bans. So I will always fight against the organized religion until they leave us alone and keep their thoughts to themselves.


being one who has been an advocate for gay rights for the past 25-30 years, I can say that in order for us to gain rights and equality like the rest of the population, we can not turn around in blast another group for exercising their rights even if we strongly disagree. That is the biggest thing I found with many gay right causes is they forget that we have to respect other's rights in the same manner we want for ourselves. Equality rights has to work both ways.
   Just to point out something....seems to me that in the past several months, there are a few states who have over ruled Prop 8 and resumed recognizing gay rights and marriages. This is not a dig at your age yet as a word of advice, we who have been fighting this longer then you've been alive, know from personal experience that slow and steady wins this fight, not flying off in a flurry of anger as that will set our community backward instead of forward.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 5/26/2009 4:21:56 PM >


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 4:21:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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I understand WHAT you're saying, k.

I'm just noting it's a gilb and silly stance.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/26/2009 4:22:47 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 4:23:10 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Something about all this reminds me of telling Civil Rights activists that they should be patient, let the system work, not cause trouble.

Maybe its time to revisit "Letter from a Birmingham Jail."

Violence? I hope not. But resistance and protest, absolutely.

The conservatives have lost this one already--they just don't know it yet. The younger generation doesn't give a damn about who marries whom, and as the older politicians, voters and right-wing activists die out, the laws will inevitablty change.

That doesn't change the current injustice, however. There is no "danger." There is no "threat to marriage." There's just people who don't like it.





Exactly!


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 4:36:01 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

  Just to point out something....seems to me that in the past several months, there are a few states who have over ruled Prop 8 and resumed recognizing gay rights and marriages.


AFAIK all that have overturned anti-gay-marriage laws have been  vialegislative actions, not voters actions (other than CA of course). There was also 1 state that instituted gay marriage by the voters (Maine?) (as opposed to overturning a law).

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:03:56 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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FR reply here...

10,000 years of human history back up marriage between a man and a woman.

Even in times when homosexuality flourished,  there was never, ever any concept of
homosexual marriage.

Now, there were many, legal wills and civil agreements that were recognized by the
lawful rulers/governments of said times and that said....

Being I am fully supportive of Civil Unions, the communities demanding the word "marriage"  do
a major disservice by not embracing legal Civil Unions between two people, equal in every way to
marriages between a man and a woman.. There is no doubt  in my mind, that laws and constitutional
amendments protecting marriage between a man and a woman AND at the same time granting same sex
(or between a man and a woman if they so choose) Civil Unions, would be overwhelmingly supported 
by the American People.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:11:19 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR reply here...

10,000 years of human history back up marriage between a man and a woman.




And how many thousands of years does human history point to the world being flat? Is time to be the criteria to decide right and wrong? By that logic, the world is still flat.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:20:25 PM   
Vendaval


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Fast Reply -
 
And please note that monogamy between a man and a woman is not the standard marriage concept throughout the world. 
 

Legality of polygamy
 
"The legal status of polygamy varies from country to country. It is typically illegal in western cultures while often being frequent and openly practiced, if not encouraged, in most Islamic nations.
 
Polygamous unions are recognized in nearly fifty countries, mostly of the Arab world. The few exceptions in the Middle East include Israel and Turkey, which have had a fair amount of western influence, and the African nation of Tunisia.[1] All northern states in Nigeria recognize polygamous marriage, as these states are governed by Sharia Law. Districts in Eritrea that operate under Sharia also recognize polygamous marriages, while the federal government does not.[2] Polygamy tends to be the least-frequently practiced in the secular Arab states, such as Lebanon, which still allows for such unions. Additionally, the island nations of the Maldives recognizes polygamy, as does the French overseas territory Mayotte. However, the island has been forced to end the practice to upgrade with French culture, where polygamy is illegal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_polygamy

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:27:56 PM   
servantforuse


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I wonder if the O P believes in " hate crime " legislation. ? Either way, I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about whether gays can marry.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:36:23 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Proposition 8 was upheld by a huge margin in a very liberal State. I can say with some certainty that is was much more that the religious right who voted for this. The majority of Americans, whether right or wrong, still believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.


When the people can vote, and decide as a people, That IS a free Country.


I would have to disagree with this. The capacity to vote guarantees Majority Rule, which is often neither ethically right nor just.

The majority was a BARE majority (52%)... that is NOT a huge majority... it is scraping by on lies, propaganda, and manipulation.

I don't care what religion people practice, but they need to keep their religion in their own homes and churches, and allow the civil government to treat all individuals justly. Of course, local governments "voted" to ignore the Emancipation Proclamation and Civil Rights laws as well, so I guess we haven't learned much about how to treat one another as we would like to be treated.

Dame Calla

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:46:00 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW



The majority was a BARE majority (52%)... that is NOT a huge majority... it is scraping by on lies, propaganda, and manipulation.



What is significant about the 52/48 vote is not the margin, but the fact that it so widely missed Obama's vote totals...61% to McCains 37%. That makes it absolutely clear that it wasnt the "religious right" alone that passed prop 8. At least 15% of the people who voted for Obama felt strongly enough to switch off on a liberal issue, and not many religious right voted for Obama.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:51:07 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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fast reply

i bout break out in hives when i think about posting on a political thread, but a nice mellow buzz makes you dumb sometimes....what can i say.

i have my own opinions on the rights of gays to marry, and to behonest, i am on the fence about it.  part of me says it is their right, and yet there is something deep inside me that says marriage is between a man and a woman.....blame the baptists for that i guess.

but.....throughout my life i have had conceptions and misconceptions about many groups of people.  blame being raised in georgia for that i guess, i dont apologize for it, it is what it is.

my mind has changed on many things that i used to believe about people, for the better i like to believe.  but it has been changed by folks who were confident in who they were, comfortable with who they were, and willing to discuss things in a matter that was not confrontational and angry.

people who showed through their actions that i was mistaken about them, not people who screamed and yelled and stomped their feet.

i realize that sometimes foot stomping and raising pure hell is called for, but i wonder if it helps the cause or sets it two steps back.

just my buzzed

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:57:51 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual


What is significant about the 52/48 vote is not the margin, but the fact that it so widely missed Obama's vote totals...61% to McCains 37%. That makes it absolutely clear that it wasnt the "religious right" alone that passed prop 8. At least 15% of the people who voted for Obama felt strongly enough to switch off on a liberal issue, and not many religious right voted for Obama.


Actually, if you followed this at all, it would quickly be apparent that that 4% gap was most likely filled with people like Mayor Willie Brown, who spoke about the need to protect same-gender individuals and households... and then told his constituency to vote "YES" on Prop 8. He -meant- to vote "NO", but the advertising for Prop 8 was designed to obfuscate, and more than a couple of experts contend that it was the confusing language of the prop + the heavy-handed propagandizing that laid the last marble in the bucket.

For myself, I don't give a rat's ass. I have no intention of marrying again, even if same-gen does become nationally recognized, so it is completely irrelevant to me, except as proof that we are, in general, still bigoted, cruel, self-centered people who wouldn't know compassion or respect for others' right to live their private lives as they see fit if it came up and bit us on the ass and tore out a chunk the size of Jersey.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 5/26/2009 6:00:03 PM >


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 5:59:40 PM   
Mezrem


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Sure lets let the feds have more power.. but no.. wait. Not a good plan either as the current president has said in public that he does not support gay marriage... not sure of his stand on civil unions. I would rather see more power in the hands of the states. Protect the ground you gain.

You complain that perhaps only 10 states in your life time may have gay marriage. Would that have even been thought possable twenty years ago? Speaking out is one thing but offering violence throws you into the radical camp. From there your political enemies can use you as an example to marginalise your points of view.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666


That would fix the problem in California, but still leave over half the country as anti-gay. Some of those states will never allow gay marriage even in 100 years.

I think it's time the federal government stepped in and created an equal rights amendment to trump ALL state constitutions, thus rendering all bans on gay marriage null and void. Then again, the 14th Amendment equal protection clause SHOULD already do that, and yet it doesn't. I doubt I'll see a gay-friendly United States in my lifetime. I would wager that by the time I die, only 10 states will have allowed gay marriage.

Oh, and what happens if the ban is affirmed in another vote? Then would it be time to take up arms? I see it as a very real possibility that the gay marriage ban could be upheld. It passed once before against ALL odds, it can happen again.


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 6:04:42 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
....ever heard of electoral tyranny? Suppose 51% vote to disenfranchise women......then 51% of those allowed to vote, vote to disenfranchise blacks........then 51% of those left vote to only allow those who own property valued over a certain amount to vote. Is that still the land of freedom, or is it possible that freedom needs to be protected from electoral tyranny?


Depends on which side of the fence you are on. Let's use the topic at hand - Prop 8 and marriage equality. If 51% of the voters in California had rejected Prop 8 it would have been a joyous day when the people of California spoke and supported civil rights. If 51% vote in favor of Prop 8 (as at least apparently happened) then we suddenly have electoral tyranny. Either both examples are electoral tyranny or neither is. Take your pick.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 6:04:50 PM   
DreamGoddess666


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

What is significant about the 52/48 vote is not the margin, but the fact that it so widely missed Obama's vote totals...61% to McCains 37%. That makes it absolutely clear that it wasnt the "religious right" alone that passed prop 8. At least 15% of the people who voted for Obama felt strongly enough to switch off on a liberal issue, and not many religious right voted for Obama.


That's because even "liberal" blacks and latinos are "conservative" on social issues. In a way, Obama can actually be blamed for the passage of Prop 8, because all the minorities that got out to vote for him also voted against gay marriage. These are still people in the religious right, even if they identify as Democrats.

I think it was like what, 70% of blacks voted to ban gay marriage I think, IIRC?

It strikes me as absurd and hypocritical to an extreme degree that minorities that had such a hard time getting their rights would then turn around and squash the rights of another minority.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 6:41:07 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666
It strikes me as absurd and hypocritical to an extreme degree that minorities that had such a hard time getting their rights would then turn around and squash the rights of another minority.


What is even more absurd is to lump all minorities together like The Three Musketeers when the only thing they have in common is that they are not the majority. These groups have radically different agendas.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 6:58:58 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666
That's because even "liberal" blacks and latinos are "conservative" on social issues. In a way, Obama can actually be blamed for the passage of Prop 8, because all the minorities that got out to vote for him also voted against gay marriage. These are still people in the religious right, even if they identify as Democrats.

I think it was like what, 70% of blacks voted to ban gay marriage I think, IIRC?

It strikes me as absurd and hypocritical to an extreme degree that minorities that had such a hard time getting their rights would then turn around and squash the rights of another minority.


There's the problem right there, not one state would stop you from getting married, not one. You have the same right as any hetero to get married.

You're problem is you can't get married to the one you love, who happens to be of the same sex as you. Nobody is "squashing" your rights, you have the right to marry a man and be miserable as the rest of the female population in Cali.

You could always move to Mass, or Maine if you're so unhappy with Cali.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 6:59:40 PM   
faithfulfemme


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The will of the people should never be the law of the land.  As an example, if the will of the people made the laws, there would still be black slaves in the south, and segregation.
 
 
  Let me quote from the "The American Ideal of 1776, The Twelve Basic American Principles":

"These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between:

 
(1) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and
 
(2) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority; as we shall now see.


So, putting gay marriage to a vote of the electorate goes against our style of government--because as in a Republic the rights of the Individual and the Minority are always to be safe-guarded.

 
It is my belief that this legal question is destined to come before the Supreme Court of the United Stated precisely because we are a Republic and not a Democracy.  And that marriage between men and men and women and women will be upheld.  In a Republic the rights of the Individual and the rights of the Minority are to be safe-guarded.   



 
 

< Message edited by faithfulfemme -- 5/26/2009 7:04:43 PM >


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