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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 6:55:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
the privileges referred to in the 14th amendment are privileges under FEDERAL law, and prevents the states from overriding Federal law. Marriage is not a federal issue, so the 14th amendment doesnt apply.

Well, I have to disagree again. The 14th amendment applies because Prop 8 discriminates against a class of people and does not discriminate against another class of people and No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. Marriage falls under that 'any' law provision. It doesn't say any federal law.. just any law. The 14th was put into place for exactly issues such as this one. To prevent states from being able to abridge the rights of the individual. The right of the individual is what is at stake here, the issue of marriage is just the catalyst. Either everyone from the Atlantic to the Pacific and Canada to Mexico has the right to marry the person of their choice or no one does. Anything else is discrimination. Simple as that.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 7:18:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Proposition 8 was upheld by a huge margin in a very liberal State. I can say with some certainty that is was much more that the religious right who voted for this. The majority of Americans, whether right or wrong, still believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

When the people can vote, and decide as a people, That IS a free Country.

Breathe, I think you misunderstand the type of government we have in the US. It isn't a democracy. It is instead a constitutional republic. At least that is what we're supposed to have. On practical levels we're closer to an oligarchy. In any case, I've seen liberty and freedom expressed this way:

Democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep discussing whats for dinner.

Liberty is an armed sheep.

To the OP I say this: If we had more folks like you we'd, um, have fewer folks like you.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to breatheasone)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:10:25 AM

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be careful what you wish for....the anger is building across the land and one side will prevail.... and i think we are truely at 1861 again...its going to explode...the red states are fed up with looney land and this idiot president... let the big dog eat....

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:19:24 AM

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if the red states were able to overrule this so-called looney prez then he wouldnt be in office: mccain and that psycho twat would be in office

< Message edited by GreedyTop -- 5/27/2009 9:20:05 AM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:33:46 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

be careful what you wish for....the anger is building across the land and one side will prevail.... and i think we are truely at 1861 again...its going to explode...the red states are fed up with looney land and this idiot president... let the big dog eat....

I was going to run that through Babelfish to try to make some sense out of it, but wasn't sure which language to select. Can you help me out with a bit of a hint?

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:35:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Well, I have to disagree again. The 14th amendment applies because Prop 8 discriminates against a class of people and does not discriminate against another class of people and No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. Marriage falls under that 'any' law provision. It doesn't say any federal law.. just any law. The 14th was put into place for exactly issues such as this one. To prevent states from being able to abridge the rights of the individual. The right of the individual is what is at stake here, the issue of marriage is just the catalyst. Either everyone from the Atlantic to the Pacific and Canada to Mexico has the right to marry the person of their choice or no one does. Anything else is discrimination. Simple as that.

I read and re-read the 14th last night and Bita is spot on. If Prop 8 makes it to the SCOTUS I don't see how they can let it stand. Prop 8 is a clear violation.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:37:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

be careful what you wish for....the anger is building across the land and one side will prevail.... and i think we are truely at 1861 again...its going to explode...the red states are fed up with looney land and this idiot president... let the big dog eat....

Feel free to leave. My big dogs will do nothing to stop you.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 9:38:23 AM

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quote:

Bita is spot on.

She usually is.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 10:02:18 AM

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FR...

It strikes me that people are using the slavery argument here as something that morally wrong but
was supported as an institution in the United States while the enlightened minority fought against it.

Funny, some of those same people ridicule the same arguments when it comes to unborn children.

.

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 10:12:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Why should Mary who loves Jane have to settle for less than what Joe who loves Ann has? Why? What makes Joe and Ann better than Mary and Jane that Mary and Jane should just shut the hell up and be satisfied with some sort of crumb? Tradition? Again, it's bullshit. If you want to get rid of marriage, I am so cool with that, but get rid of it for everyone, and don't base it on the dangly bits or the lack there of that lie below the waist.

Nothing makes them better bita and why do you see Civil Unions as a crumb?

What Joe and Ann have, again is backed up by 10,000 years of civilization. That is a bit more than mere tradition. Mary and Jane's idea dates back to the mid 80's and was prompted by health insurance.

Why not have both?

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:18:10 AM

DreamGoddess666

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Giving the two different names implies that marriage is somehow "above" civil unions. It should be called the same thing no matter what. Either everyone should be allowed to marry, or NO ONE should be. Giving it a different name is segregation.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:18:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Nothing makes them better bita and why do you see Civil Unions as a crumb?

Why is the use of the word 'marriage' between gays so scary to hets? What's the big deal here? Civil Unions for everyone works for me. What doesn't work for me is marriage is okay for 'some' but not for all. Why not for all? I have never seen a valid secular argument to explain it and that's because there isn't one. All one can point to is tradition and the Bible neither of which has any place in formulating the laws of a free people.

You asked why do I see Civil Unions as a crumb .. well, Plessy vs Ferguson has already been overturned. Separate but equal is not only inherently wrong, it's already been decided by the SCOTUS that it doesn't work but most importantly it is a major step backwards and I'm a bit of a forward thinking kind of gal. Being satisfied with less than I deserve would be my bad and I'm just too damn good to be bad.

Look, I just want the equal opportunity to marry my lady, maybe fuck up my life, and pay for my divorce that all the straight folks have. Hell, it'll infuse money into the economy and divorce lawyers will be able to line their pockets to go buy fancy hybrid cars, save the auto industry and laugh at us poor schmucks all the way to the bank for getting exactly what everyone else has and most undoubtedly what we deserve as tax paying citizens. I pay taxes to the United States and to Portugal.. hell, I should get two votes.. but I would be more than satisfied with the same thing that everyone else gets. One vote and marriage to the person/s of my choice.

Polygamy though is another debate. ::chuckles::

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:41:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
You asked why do I see Civil Unions as a crumb .. well, Plessy vs Ferguson has already been overturned.

Plessy vs Ferguson really!

You do realize that comparing homosexual marriage to the Black Civil Rights movement is what drove African American Church congregations in Ohio to the
Republican ticket in 2004 and resulted in the re-election of George W. Bush right?

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:43:01 AM

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Go Celeste!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Why is the use of the word 'marriage' between gays so scary to hets? What's the big deal here? Civil Unions for everyone works for me. What doesn't work for me is marriage is okay for 'some' but not for all. Why not for all? I have never seen a valid secular argument to explain it and that's because there isn't one. All one can point to is tradition and the Bible neither of which has any place in formulating the laws of a free people.

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(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:45:05 AM

DreamGoddess666

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Plessy vs Ferguson really!

You do realize that comparing homosexual marriage to the Black Civil Rights movement is what drove African American Church congregations in Ohio to the
Republican ticket in 2004 and resulted in the re-election of George W. Bush right?

Why shouldn't the two be compared? They ARE alike! Or do blacks think they had it worse or something? Sorry, but no. We have it just as bad as they did. Arguably worse given that we still have these problems in a more liberal society that has done nothing for us for the most part.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:48:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Proposition 8 was upheld by a huge margin in a very liberal State. I can say with some certainty that is was much more that the religious right who voted for this. The majority of Americans, whether right or wrong, still believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

When the people can vote, and decide as a people, That IS a free Country.

Breathe, I think you misunderstand the type of government we have in the US. It isn't a democracy. It is instead a constitutional republic. At least that is what we're supposed to have. On practical levels we're closer to an oligarchy. In any case, I've seen liberty and freedom expressed this way:

Democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep discussing whats for dinner.

Liberty is an armed sheep.

To the OP I say this: If we had more folks like you we'd, um, have fewer folks like you.

Uncle Nasty

Hi UncleNasty, thanks for explaining that, i stand corrected.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:55:35 AM

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quote:

comparing homosexual marriage to the Black Civil Rights movement

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."
-- Coretta Scott King

"To penalise someone because of their sexual orientation is like what used to happen to us; to be penalised for something which we could do nothing [about] -- our ethnicity, our race. I would find it quite unacceptable to condemn, persecute a minority that has already been persecuted."
-- Desmond Tutu

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
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(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 11:56:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

Why shouldn't the two be compared? They ARE alike! Or do blacks think they had it worse or something? Sorry, but no. We have it just as bad as they did. Arguably worse given that we still have these problems in a more liberal society that has done nothing for us for the most part.

What??????????????

You do remember that little problem we had a few years ago when we kidnapped people from their homes, shipped them as cargo halfway around the world, and put them in chains to pick cotton?

(in reply to DreamGoddess666)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 12:31:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Plessy vs Ferguson really!

Really. What, exactly, is the difference? Plessy v Ferguson is separate but equal. Civil Union v Marriage is also separate but equal. What's the difference? You have one group insisting on their rights who happened to be black and you have another group insisting on their rights who happen to be gay. Is discrimination based on race wrong but based on gender it's no big deal?

quote:

You do realize that comparing homosexual marriage to the Black Civil Rights movement is what drove African American Church congregations in Ohio to the
Republican ticket in 2004 and resulted in the re-election of George W. Bush right?

Two steps forward, one step back yeilds a net gain of one step. It's slow, but I can live with it. At least it's going forward unlike separate but equal which goes backwards.

Look, there are going to be plenty of folks who are satisfied with half a loaf. It will be seen as a great victory for gay rights.. my fear is that it will be seen as 'enough' .. and it's just not.

I've answered all your questions, FatDomDaddy. How about answering just one of mine. Why is the word 'marriage' such a scary concept when applied to anyone other than straight folks?

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 5/27/2009 12:33:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 1:06:29 PM

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Joined: 2/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Nothing makes them better bita and why do you see Civil Unions as a crumb?

Why is the use of the word 'marriage' between gays so scary to hets? What's the big deal here? Civil Unions for everyone works for me. What doesn't work for me is marriage is okay for 'some' but not for all. Why not for all? I have never seen a valid secular argument to explain it and that's because there isn't one. All one can point to is tradition and the Bible neither of which has any place in formulating the laws of a free people.

Whoa now, please keep in mind that not all "hets" are against gay marriage. I personally am all for it. I do not see homosexuality as a sin, and my masculinity is not threatened by it. If they want to adopt and marry and etc. etc. etc., more power to them.

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(in reply to BitaTruble)

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