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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:11:12 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I despise organized religion. It's a plague on the world that does nothing but hurt innocent people.



That maybe so yet these innocent people do have free will thus they chose to follow an organized religion. How can you honestly fight for equal rights for gays when you turn around and blast another for following Christianity or Judaism or any other organized religion?


I love you.

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:12:40 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual


What is significant about the 52/48 vote is not the margin, but the fact that it so widely missed Obama's vote totals...61% to McCains 37%. That makes it absolutely clear that it wasnt the "religious right" alone that passed prop 8. At least 15% of the people who voted for Obama felt strongly enough to switch off on a liberal issue, and not many religious right voted for Obama.


Actually, if you followed this at all, it would quickly be apparent that that 4% gap was most likely filled with people like Mayor Willie Brown, who spoke about the need to protect same-gender individuals and households... and then told his constituency to vote "YES" on Prop 8. He -meant- to vote "NO", but the advertising for Prop 8 was designed to obfuscate, and more than a couple of experts contend that it was the confusing language of the prop + the heavy-handed propagandizing that laid the last marble in the bucket.

For myself, I don't give a rat's ass. I have no intention of marrying again, even if same-gen does become nationally recognized, so it is completely irrelevant to me, except as proof that we are, in general, still bigoted, cruel, self-centered people who wouldn't know compassion or respect for others' right to live their private lives as they see if if it came up and bit us on the ass and tore out a chunk the size of Jersey.

Dame Calla


The advertising wasnt the least bit deceptive. Obama came out strongly against it (and btw the spread in the black vote in favor of prop 8 was what swung the 4% difference). Brown misspoke and corrected himself imnmediately.  Also see my post above with the title of the summary of the prop in the voters brochure.

You can try an rationalize its passage as much as you want, but the fact is it passed despite the "no" advertising outspending the "yes" advertising 2:1.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:22:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

The upholding of Proposition 8 in California is a major human rights defeat in this country. I don't think the United States should be allowed to be called the "land of the free" anymore. It should be "the land of the free if you're a Heterosexual Christian", because that's what it really is. I despise people putting the Bible into law. It's a violation of everything the founding fathers intended when this country was created.

It makes me think maybe it's time for another revolution. The founded fathers didn't ask for freedom nicely, they TOOK IT at the end of a gun. I'm starting to think that's the only way homosexuals will get true freedom. We may end up having to kill for it, taking that freedom at the end of a gun. The religious nuts have to be stopped!

I'm so angry I can't even see straight right now.



          Ok.  I haven't read any of the rest of the thread yet, I'm only replying to this OP.  My answer is screw you (and not in a way that gets anybody off).  Bring your armed revolution to my neighborhood, I will be siding with my redneck, homophobe, fundy neighbors.  Note;  they are good shots.

        What I am even more fed up with than the discrimination we obviously aren't done dealing with, is judges we mostly never get an option to vote for, throwing out the legal will of the people.  This was a valid amendment to the CA Constitution, legally passed by the voters.  Bad timing.  If it hadn't been on the same ballot with Obama, it would have failed.

      Now comes an interesting test, to see if anybody reads to the bottom of my post, before lighting up the torches.  I voted against Prop 8.  When the next amendment comes along to throw it right back out of our Constitution, I will support doing that.  With a bit of luck, we won't have the heavy black turnout in that election.

          This is not a defeat for human rights.  This is an upholding of them.  The right to have our vote matter.  There are assorted names for systems of government where that isn't allowed to happen.  I'll load my guns in opposition to those as well.

_____________________________

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DreamGoddess666)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:43:36 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

This was a valid amendment to the CA Constitution, legally passed by the voters.


I disagree completely.

How can this be valid:

Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry.

when this is already law?


No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.



Prop 8 directly violates the 14th amendment to the Constitution. It should never have been on the ballot in the first place.



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:46:49 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I am no expert, but it seems to me that Bita has a valid point

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:52:27 PM   
GrandPoobah


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		This will change, given time.  The important demographic is that "older people" supported it, while younger voters did not.  Attitudes are changing, but they don't change overrnight.  It will, unfortunately, take time.  There is, like it or not, a "traditional" definition of "marriage" as being a man and a woman, and dealing with that perception will take longer, especially when the concept of "civil unions" appears to grant the same legal privileges.

I'm not saying I agree with all of this, just that those are the arguments and issues that underlie the original vote.  Sadly, many older people are still uncomfortable with the idea of non-hetro couples.  That's sad, but if you grew up when they did, you would understand where those values and beliefs came from.  They may not be "right" but they are certainly valid and understandable.

The solution is to keep working towards understanding and acceptance.  It's a long fight, and not something won in one big battle.  While it may not be what we'd like to hear, patience and persistance are the way to reach the end goal.

GP

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 7:52:39 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

This was a valid amendment to the CA Constitution, legally passed by the voters.


I disagree completely.

How can this be valid:

Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry.

when this is already law?


No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.



Prop 8 directly violates the 14th amendment to the Constitution. It should never have been on the ballot in the first place.




the privileges referred to in the 14th amendment are privileges under FEDERAL law, and prevents the states from overriding Federal law. Marriage is not a federal issue, so the 14th amendment doesnt apply.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 8:01:36 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


How can this be valid:

Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry. 






      What you have up there, Bita, is the description on the ballot.  Those descriptions don't mean much here.  Hell, we voted on a tax increase last week that didn't even mention taxes in the ballot summary.

Now how the supporters were/are planning to get this thing past SCOTUS isn't my problem.  The argument before the CA Supreme Court was whether constitutional amendments that liberals really hate, need an extra boost to be valid.  Frankly, this wasn't the decision I expected from them. 

  

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 8:07:56 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Yeah, I know, Rich. I spent the first 35 years of my life in California and was quite active in politics and stumping. I haven't read the opinions yet because I was too busy vetting Sotomayor today, but it's first thing on my agenda for tomorrow (after chores!)

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 8:09:48 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR reply here...

10,000 years of human history back up marriage between a man and a woman.





Well there you go... silly me!

Bita, the conceptthat the earth was round starts being documented by the Greeks in the 6th century BC. But clearly, given some far more ancient ruins like Stonehenge, the idea was around a lot longer.

The groups demanding calling same sex unions, marriages have every thing to lose by demanding the use of that word. Using the term civil union on the contrary would bring easy majority support.

And how many thousands of years does human history point to the world being flat? Is time to be the criteria to decide right and wrong? By that logic, the world is still flat.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR reply here...

10,000 years of human history back up marriage between a man and a woman.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 8:14:33 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

My thoughts:

1) Legal Marriage of any kind should never have come about. Marriage is a religious ceremony. All marriage should be removed from laws.

2) Civil unions should legally replace marriage and should be allowed by any two concenting adults.

3) Now if someone wants a marriage ceremony, that is completely up to them. Have one and be happy.



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 8:18:27 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		My marriage ceremony had no religious undertones, and was carried out by a non-religious JoP. Marriage is a legally binding contract: it is only religious when people choose it to be. It seems to me that marriage is a right that should be available to all regardless of sexual orientation.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 8:47:30 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		Putting anything to a vote of the electorate is often not a good idea. If it makes it to the SCOTUS it will be upheld as long as those rights are guaranteed in the Constitution. It is the Constitution that guarantees those rights and the republic follows the Constitution. I think that is an important distinction. It's not simply a case that a republic looks out for the little guy. The little guy has to be mentioned in the Constitution in some manner.

(in reply to faithfulfemme)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 9:35:48 PM   
Kybele


Posts: 8
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline 		There were thousands of years of non-consensual slavery. Oh yes, that makes it good and proper.

There were centuries of detestation of proper hygiene because it supposedly ignored mortification of the flesh in favor of the spirit. Excellent, let's do away with soap and plumbing.

Marriage in this society is a social contract between two consenting citizen adults. It conveys benefits and rights that are good and necessary for two people who care for each other, or who raise children (as many LGBT folk do). We are not the ancient Hebrews, or the ancient Romans. Your particular traditions or religious mores are not necessarily mine, and just as I would not try to force mine upon you, I would request that you have the same essential courtesy.

After all - what would happen if our sexuality was put up for popular vote? It wouldn't be pretty.

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/26/2009 9:41:37 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah

This will change, given time.  The important demographic is that "older people" supported it, while younger voters did not.  Attitudes are changing, but they don't change overrnight.  It will, unfortunately, take time.  There is, like it or not, a "traditional" definition of "marriage" as being a man and a woman, and dealing with that perception will take longer, especially when the concept of "civil unions" appears to grant the same legal privileges.

I'm not saying I agree with all of this, just that those are the arguments and issues that underlie the original vote.  Sadly, many older people are still uncomfortable with the idea of non-hetro couples.  That's sad, but if you grew up when they did, you would understand where those values and beliefs came from.  They may not be "right" but they are certainly valid and understandable.

The solution is to keep working towards understanding and acceptance.  It's a long fight, and not something won in one big battle.  While it may not be what we'd like to hear, patience and persistance are the way to reach the end goal.

GP



I wish it were true but old and young were not the deciding factors...do a search and you can see what groups voted for and against... it may surprise you.

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 1:30:33 AM   
DreamGoddess666


Posts: 88
Joined: 5/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

          This is not a defeat for human rights.  This is an upholding of them.  The right to have our vote matter.  There are assorted names for systems of government where that isn't allowed to happen.  I'll load my guns in opposition to those as well.


You're a moron if you think upholding voting rights over freedom and equality is a victory for human rights. Sorry, but equality is WAY more important than the right to vote. These laws turn gays into second-class citizens. It's just as bad as what blacks went through back in the segregation days.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 1:47:12 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


Well there you go... silly me!


You said it.

quote:

Bita, the conceptthat the earth was round starts being documented by the Greeks in the 6th century BC. But clearly, given some far more ancient ruins like Stonehenge, the idea was around a lot longer.


Okay, so you do want to use time as a criteria. I think that's short-sighted and just about one of the worst arguments that one can make. It holds no weight at all. Meh. When it's wrong, it's wrong and stripping the rights of a human simply because it's always been done is bullshit.

quote:

The groups demanding calling same sex unions, marriages have every thing to lose by demanding the use of that word. Using the term civil union on the contrary would bring easy majority support.


Why should Mary who loves Jane have to settle for less than what Joe who loves Ann has? Why? What makes Joe and Ann better than Mary and Jane that Mary and Jane should just shut the hell up and be satisfied with some sort of crumb? Tradition? Again, it's bullshit. If you want to get rid of marriage, I am so cool with that, but get rid of it for everyone, and don't base it on the dangly bits or the lack there of that lie below the waist.



< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 5/27/2009 1:48:08 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 2:09:14 AM   
MissDominae


Posts: 94
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666
You're a moron if you think .......


The moment you stoop to insult Lindsey, this becomes a dispute and not a discussion or debate.

You seem to be so filled with anger and so many things in your life.   I'm very concerned with that, especially as it is likely to be counter-productive when seeking social change.   Look at some of those who have achieved great change in this world - Rosa Parks, Dr King, Gandhi, Susan Anthony.   Compare them with people whose passion has perhaps been just as great but whose methods have been abhorred and results tragic because they were WRONG - Bin Laden, Malcolm X, Slobodan Milosijevic.

There is a right way to achieve change.   Threats to kill, inciting revolution, calling people morons and the like is not that way, anymore than ethnic cleansing, black power marches and terrorist bombings was or is.   Ask yourself; is your anger truly concerned with events external to you or are those events merely useful targets for you to use to allow the anger already laying within you out to play?

You are not a Bin Laden or an evil person but you are letting your passions mask your intelligence and your true nature and make you seem like an extremist.   Extremists are all too easily ignored and rarely achieve their goals.   Rational, calm and determined people very often do.   Rosa Parks' great 'revolution' was to say one word when asked to give in to segregation and discrimination - "No".   Gandhi stressed that all protests must be peaceful.   Dr King dared us all to dream of a world of equality, and dream we did - and still do.   Violence ended his life but could not end his dream - that should tell you something.

To paraphrase a great man "All I am saying ......... is give peace a chance"

(in reply to DreamGoddess666)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 5:22:47 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

We've tried. It went to a vote and it went to the courts. The Ban was put in place and upheld. All attempts to deal with teh religious right in a rational manner has . . . failed. What else is there to do, then? Just sit back and accept it? I think not.


You do realize that there are a lot of chrietians on the left side that are also opposed to same sex marriage right?  You do realize that a lot of them voted against it in CA?

Ignorance has no party lines, there are assholes on both sides, so why are you fixating on the religious right?

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 6:20:22 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		FFS, yes you can have a non-religious ceremony, but the idea and institution of marriage has come from religious ceremonies. Do you need me to spam this topic with a vast amount of links to support that?

Call it Civil Union, make it the legal binding contract, remove the word marriage and now it cannot be truly opposed on many grounds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

My marriage ceremony had no religious undertones, and was carried out by a non-religious JoP. Marriage is a legally binding contract: it is only religious when people choose it to be. It seems to me that marriage is a right that should be available to all regardless of sexual orientation.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 80
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